VNPC or icly made-up person?

[Sarah]

Sorry ahead of time for the detail.  Just wanted to make sure it was fairly clear:

Okay, say your character is suspicious that another character (pcA) is making up a person (pcB) in order to foil your character, somehow.  How would you –ever- be able to find out ICly if this pcB 'exists' or not if, say, the player of pcA OOCly made pcB up to be a VNPC?  Yes, you could ask to be introduced to pcB in game, in which case the player of pcA will emote it out, but what if this isn't possible because pcB... I dunno... lives far far away, has two broken legs and is bed-ridden for the rest of his/her life?

If you can't find out icly, then your character could never find out if this person is lying or not?
Is this an impossible question to answer?

[Agent_137]

That's tough.

If pcA is making up pcB and pcB is virtual, then pcB really exists in zalanthas. And yes, if you ask to meet pcB, then they can emote it out and there you go.

But if pcA is just flat out lying, there is no pcB virtual or otherwise, then, well, yea. pcA is lying.

It's a tough case because you can't do stuff to pcB you'd do to normal PCs, like try to contact them, or put a hit out on them (except maybe with a virtual assassain, which leads to my next point).

So i think pcA in this case might be taking use of virtual people way too far. When a player makes up virtual people, they really shouldn't be interacting with other players. Just adding to a scene.

So, here's some sort of an answer:

if pcA is refering to a virtual pc with pcB, then pcA is out of line, and you should email the mud on it.

if pcA is referring to a real pc, then good. Play out normally.

if pcA is totally lying ICly about the existence of pcB, then good, play out normally.

If it's really an issue, you might want to OOC pcA ask if pcB is a virtual npc. a simple yes or no will do. If he says no, then you can play things out properly.

[Marauder Moe]

Yeah, sounds like a tricky situation.  I think the appropriateness of vNPC usage varies and we GDB readers can't really form a valid opinion without knowing the circumstances, which would be IC information.

Email the mud detailing your situation.  If need be, they can talk to the other player and advise how the situation should be played out.

[LoD]

I generally make use of VNPC's only for atmosphere.

If you weren't sure if someone existed, ask them for a meeting.  Tell pcA to have pcB contact you within the week or else (i.e. the deal is off, I cut off your head, you lose the bet).  My suggestion would be to force their hand at revealing whether or not pcB is a VNPC or a lie.

I hate when PC's use VNPC's to back them up in game.  I've seen bard PC's do it where the crowd reacts favorably to their playing or unfavorably to someone else.  I've also seen examples where someone uses emotes to have VNPC's back him up in a loud arguement within a bar, even throw things at the PC.  These are clearly cases of abuse and if you find someone doing it, best thing is just to report it and/or stop interacting with them.

Or, you could play TWINK WARS and say:

"Well, I'm sorry to tell you that pcB is dead.  I hired pcD to hunt them down and murder them.  They just let me know they succeeded.  Sorry."

-LoD

[EvilRoeSlade]

Sorry ahead of time for the detail.  Just wanted to make sure it was fairly clear:

Okay, say your character is suspicious that another character (pcA) is making up a person (pcB) in order to foil your character, somehow.  How would you –ever- be able to find out ICly if this pcB 'exists' or not if, say, the player of pcA OOCly made pcB up to be a VNPC?  Yes, you could ask to be introduced to pcB in game, in which case the player of pcA will emote it out, but what if this isn't possible because pcB... I dunno... lives far far away, has two broken legs and is bed-ridden for the rest of his/her life?

If you can't find out icly, then your character could never find out if this person is lying or not?
Is this an impossible question to answer?

It seems pretty clear to me.  If you want to know whether pcB is real or made up, ask pcA to meet them.  If they refuse for some reason or another, then you still don't know, which is realistic.  If you're determined to make sure you can always hire a real or virtual spy and then E-mail the MUD requesting the information.

[Sarah]

pcB... I dunno... lives far far away, has two broken legs and is bed-ridden for the rest of his/her life?

If you want to know whether pcB is real or made up, ask pcA to meet them.  If they refuse for some reason or another, then you still don't know, which is realistic.

My quote at the top was my attempt at subtly suggesting that there is no way for my pc to meet pcB. For IC reasons, I won't say why.  Just know that it's impossible.  

If you're determined to make sure you can always hire a real or virtual spy and then E-mail the MUD requesting the information

LOVE that idea. Thanks

Or, you could play TWINK WARS and say:

"Well, I'm sorry to tell you that pcB is dead. I hired pcD to hunt them down and murder them. They just let me know they succeeded. Sorry."

MwwwwaaaaHAHAHAHA!!!! *rubs hands together*

[EvilRoeSlade]

My quote at the top was my attempt at subtly suggesting that there is no way for my pc to meet pcB. For IC reasons, I won't say why.  Just know that it's impossible.  ;)

I realize that.  My point is that if it's impossible for you to meet pcB, then there isn't really any way for you to tell for sure, is there?  That doesn't sound like a case of unrealistic use of VNPCs (though it might not even be a VNPC) just an IC problem that should be dealt with ICly.

[Sarah]

And it will be, if at all.

I guess my concern was if pcA was taking advantage of the fact that there are vnpcs, and that his/her pc can make people up with the -intention- that this would fool people oocly, not icly, as to whether or not the person exists virtually or not.  But I got a lot of help with that.  Thanks, everyone.

[Rindan]

There is nothing wrong with making people up.  If your elf gets cornered by a Templar, you swear to the Templar that you know who the leader of The Guild is, it is okay to make shit up.  You can tell the Templar that the leader of the guild is this big tall fucker who has bright red hair, a twisted tattoos that cover his entire body, dresses all in black, always has a hunched back half-breed with him, and has a horrible attitude.  

Now, because that is a load of shit, the Templar might never find that person.  That is a-okay.  It is called lying and is generally encouraged.  You might argue that the Templar could search really hard for that person and never find them, and thus be able to deduce that that person doesn't exist.  This is an utter impossibility though.  Allanak as hundreds of thousands of people in it.  Just because he can check all the PCs to see if they match a description doesn't mean that can actually check an entire city.

The only time this becomes wrong is if I emote out this VNPC.  If I do that, I deserve to have my balls tacked to the wall.  Lying is okay.  Making up other people is not okay.

I personally would simply play it out and assume that either your friend is lying to you, or you have not met the person he is talking about.  If you think he is lying, call him on it or find a way to investigate him.  If you tell him to take you to a person and he starts emoting out a VNPC, e-mail the MUD, as that is abuse, pure and simple.

[ale six]

I don't like it when VNPCs become entangled in plots. I wish people would avoid that. Keep meaningful interaction between PCs and NPCs, or at the very least get staff assistance.

[ArmWindworn]

There is nothing wrong with making people up.  If your elf gets cornered by a Templar, you swear to the Templar that you know who the leader of The Guild is, it is okay to make shit up.  You can tell the Templar that the leader of the guild is this big tall fucker who has bright red hair, a twisted tattoos that cover his entire body, dresses all in black, always has a hunched back half-breed with him, and has a horrible attitude.  

Now, because that is a load of shit, the Templar might never find that person.  That is a-okay.  It is called lying and is generally encouraged.  You might argue that the Templar could search really hard for that person and never find them, and thus be able to deduce that that person doesn't exist.  This is an utter impossibility though.  Allanak as hundreds of thousands of people in it.  Just because he can check all the PCs to see if they match a description doesn't mean that can actually check an entire city.

The only time this becomes wrong is if I emote out this VNPC.  If I do that, I deserve to have my balls tacked to the wall.  Lying is okay.  Making up other people is not okay.

I personally would simply play it out and assume that either your friend is lying to you, or you have not met the person he is talking about.  If you think he is lying, call him on it or find a way to investigate him.  If you tell him to take you to a person and he starts emoting out a VNPC, e-mail the MUD, as that is abuse, pure and simple.

  Interesting choice of description.. One lof My PC's got  a way message by mistake saying I could work their turf in return for 25%....  Being busy at the time I just replied that I really thought they had the wrong person

[Folker]

Well, I witnessed how militia reported in crimes performed by a vnpc. I witnessed how vnpc criminals were dragged in, were judged, and executed on the spot. And I absolutely enjoyed it.

I also think it's fine to lie about a certain vnpc telling some certain info about another pc even if it's discrediting. And it doesnt even really matter if what was said was said by a real PC or a VNPC. All you need to do is ask yourself, would you really travel across the whole world to have a chat with a fool who for some reason is spouting shit ?

So what would you do then ? Ask the person who's relaying the words of this mysterious person to bring him here. And if he cant ? then ... well, I'd personally shrug it off or keep it in some portion of my mind untill a more close up prove arrives.

[spawnloser]

I once played a character that had a mother...as I believe most people do.  Well, I couldn't find anyone to play my character's mother, but there was a dynamic to my character that required 'speaking to' her mother on a few occasions.  Now, I went to where my character's mother was supposed to be, emoted her up and had a few conversations with my character's VNPC mother, had the information that mother would have had relayed to my character that needed the information (all part of my character's background but that was unknown to my character).  My character talked about Mother all the time to people, as well as Little Sis.

Now, Rindan...is that cheating?

[Bestatte]

I once played a character who had a bunch of brothers, and an uncle who owned a small rose-growing business just outside Tuluk. It just seemed very strange to me that my character would -live- in her clan's barracks, so I made up a virtual home just outside the Warrens, and a family that she took care of. So when I logged out, my character was "going home" to make sure her brothers weren't tearing the house down, loveable pains in the asses that they were.

And thanks to the staff, my virtual uncle even got to play a virtual part in a mini plotline, with me being able to arrange a gift of a special hybrid rose bush for the noble my character worked for.

It really doesn't make sense that every PC who isn't a tribal is a homeless orphan. I mean, doesn't ANYONE else have a mom or dad or siblings or mates who live in houses they either own or rent? Even a little 1-room shack in the warrens could be occupied by your sisters and father, virtually. So if people want to make up these virtual family members, I think it adds to the believability of the roleplay. It adds a dimension to the PCs that would otherwise be flat.

[ale six]

I think using VNPCs is great. My characters have had VNPC best friends, brothers, mothers, fathers, sisters, etc. The only PC I -didn't- use any VNPCs with was the one whose background stated she had no friends and no family.

I'm not saying don't make up VNPCs to flesh out your character. Certainly you can make them up and mention them, etc. But keep use of them to window dressing. Don't get them involved in plots against living PCs in the game. I especially hate the "I the player am going to say how all these VNPCs are spreading rumors about PC X, but my character isn't involved at all!"

I sort of like to think that VNPCs live in their own parallel Zalanthas and don't have much meaningful interaction with PCs and NPCs. Sure, we can have our virtual fathers and brothers and can talk to them and whatever. Certainly they mean a lot to our PCs. But they're just sort of there. You can't go home and ask daddy for 1000 sids to pay off the templar you need to bribe. You can't get your brother to spy on your best friend or your sister to spread rumors about your enemy. All of those things are relying on VNPCs too much. Interaction and plots like those should stay with PCs. That's what I meant in my post above this one.

There's also nothing wrong with lying or making up fake people. That's different from using VNPCs poorly and Rindan explained it pretty well.

If you're going to bring a VNPC into a plot, I guess the thing to do is clear it with the staff ahead of time and make sure it's okay. In those cases it can get really cool. A PC of mine had a virtual best friend who was a widely mentioned VNPC at that time in her clan, and then she got kidnapped as part of a big ongoing plot. I thought that was really cool and added a personal feel to things. Again though I wouldn't want anyone else to kidnap/kill VNPCs without some kind of staff assistance.

So: VNPCs are great. Using them too directly without staff assistance isn't.

[spawnloser]

The thing is, someone may include your VNPC in a plot.  To get back at my character mentioned above, someone may have wanted to kill my character's mother...well, guess what?  You can't, sorry.  MY mother's virtual.  Well, what if the people wanting to get back at me didn't know that?  They're trying to include a VNPC that I never intended to be included in any active roleplay.  This could be something that fits the original scenario mentioned in this post...demanding that someone introduce you to this other person to verify if the person was VNPC or made up?  You can't really do that, is what I'm saying.  Sure, I can emote up my character's mother so that people know that it's a VNPC, but Rindan will call me a cheat...and if I say, "Oops, sorry, she's busy and can't meet with us," we're being told that you should assume that this VNPC isn't actually a VNPC, but a made up lie by my character.  We're in a very sticky catch 22 here.

Personally, I ignore most references to other people made by characters other than mine...unless I know those characters are PCs or NPCs because then I know I can interact with those people.

[Vesperas]

Sometimes when I make a character, I also make family members behind it, and usually, when I go to play the character, atleast a few of the family members are still alive and a part of the character's life.  So, my PC may talk about their family members or childhood friends (usually, I assume this what my PC is doing when I'm not around).

I don't think I'd emote out one of the VNPCs.  If worse comes to worse, I always keep my VNPCs quite busy.  Now, of course.. if there ever came a scene where I (the player) could see that the other player should know that that extra character is virtual, I'll OOC them and let them know.

I have enough respect for my fellow player to automatically assume they wouldn't let that OOC knowledge effect how their character would continue to react and behave.

I'm perfectly cool with the idea of someone sending virtual assassins after my virtual VNPCs.  I'd just need to know about it so I can RP it appropriately.  "Wtf did my brother go off to?"  Maybe even roll a die to see they succeeded or something.  It would be between myself and the other player; I don't see why the staff would have to directly involved in something like this, unless there was a little more too it and it would make one of the players involved more comfortable.

[Rindan]

I think that you should try and keep VNPCs separate from major events happening to your character.  As others have pointed out, if your best friend is a VNPC, someone might decide to get to you by killing your VNPC friend.  There is nothing wrong with using VNPCs to flesh out your character, but I think you really need to draw a fine line as to how much you use them with your character.  Obviously, that fine line is not so fine.  It is a pretty blurry and grey line.

I would suggest the following guidelines:  Avoid using VNPCs as being major movers and shakers for your character.  Dropping off 'sid to your family is fine.  Having your VNPC mother being the head of your criminal organization is not fine.  If you get to the point where even with your rather inconspicuousness VNPC friends might be involved in a plot, you should probably mail the staff.  So, if an assassin is killing off your PC friends, it might be a good time to mail the staff and let them know that you have VNPC family and friends.  Why?  So that the staff can let your stalker know that some of your friends are virtual.  Now an imm can step in as an arbitrator and decode how to deal with them.  This has happened in the past.  I recall at one point many years back VNPC children were kidnapped and executed one by one by a terrorist cell.  This is a-okay, you just need a staff member to act as a judge.

[Vesperas]

This has happened in the past.  I recall at one point many years back VNPC children were kidnapped and executed one by one by a terrorist cell.  This is a-okay, you just need a staff member to act as a judge.

That's awesome.  XD


*end derailment*