new ideas?

[adrien]

I say some break threws should be made in the game where something is invented..... i mean just becuase its a harsh world where there is rare amounts of metal dosn't mean things arn't learnt and discovered.
who knows maby a large stock pile of metal is found amd the bronze age is born in arma now that would be cool...

also i think the sorc kings should die someday......... shouldn't they be dying of old age?


here is an idea for a new discovery. greek fire is invented all it needs is a bag of mixed oils and a light now that would cause alot of intresting events in battles

[Moofassa]

Perhaps break throughs of this sort have occured, and we have been thefted from the knowledge. It is entirely possible, that any at any one time in the history of the Known World, that one of the city states came across a massive stock pile of metals, and are simply waiting for the proper time to release their brutal wave of crimson spilling domination. Or, perhaps not.
 I believe, though, that if any massive break throughs, dealing with anything that would massivly benefit the entire population of the Known World, would be swiftly, and silently snuffed. The inventor killed, the knowledge stolen, and used to the advantage of the templarate, or forgotton altogether.
  The reason this is, in my opinion, the templarate of both cities cannot deal with a social uprising, or any sort of advancement leading to less control on their city-state. If an individual were to discover a way to derive water from stone, the templarate would lose it's strangle-hold on water sales, and would ultimately suffer a massive drop in power.

As for the sorcerors dying of old age, for all anyone knows, save a select few, you have hit the target right where it counts, maybe they have died, maybe they never existed. Were you ever afraid of the boogey man when you were a child? He was invented to manipulate children in way or another to the advantage of the power-hungry population. The same may apply for the sorceror kings. They may very well be a simple invention, a tale whispered by a dying bard that spread and was used by a few individuals to amount and amass more and more power. Or, perhaps not, watch your back.

-Moofassa the Ponderer.

[Larrath]

I don't really think making a bronze age in Arm would make the game better on any level at all.  All it would really mean is that some of the weapons and armor would be a little better.
In fact, I'd like to see Zalanthan equipment more prone to cracking and breaking.  If you fight a carru, there should be tears in your armored shield and some major cracks on your breastplate.

And actually, even if a large stockpile of metal was found, it's most likely that a tribe, a Great Merchant House or a city-state would take all of it, stash it and use it for their own benefit.  Remember, Allanak has a gigantic dragon statue made of steel.  That statue probably has enough metal to make fifty full sets of steel equipment and weapons, if not more.

The sorcerer-kings have been alive, as far as anyone can tell, for more than a couple of centuries, and they're supposedly humans.  Even if not, just about anything in Zalanthas would probably find a natural death by this time.  What does this mean?  Either the sorcerer-kings are dead and this is being covered up, or they're still alive by some magickal means.
How would the game benefit from the sorcerer-kings dying, though?  All it would do in terms of playing, really, is turn all of Allanak and all of Tuluk into 'rinths.  We've already got a 'rinth.

Greek Fire, if I remember correctly, is basically oil that could be set to flame on water and wouldn't get extinguished by the waves, which was highly devastating for boats.  Zalanthans don't use boats, though, nor do they use water to put out a fire.  Zalanthans can either ride around it, or cover it with sand, or use just about any elementalist to extinguish it.  And really, as awesome as the Greek Fire may have been, it's probably not as fearsome as a good Fireball.


This isn't to say that breakthroughs don't really fit in the game.  The right breakthroughs do fit - one tribe of Tablelands elves becoming extremely powerful and taking over the Desert-Elf Outpost.  A Merchant getting enough favor with the Templarate to be able to buy a slave and a stand in the Bazaar and owning the stall and eventually even a Merchant House.
A group of hunters considerably thinning down the gortok population around Tuluk, making the area just a little safer.
Someone somehow arranging a temporary peace with the gith and uniting against a common enemy (Kurac and the gith vs. Blackwing).
Discovering a new region and constructing a small outpost to make it as important as Luir's or Red Storm.

There are many things that can happen, but they probably shouldn't alter the true feel and 'rules' of the game too much.  If Tektolnes suddenly went away and took all of the Templarate's powers with it, leaving them forever powerless to wield any magick in His name, well, that would probably mean a Tuluki representative could waltz into Allanak and burn the whole city to the ground within minutes.

[adrien]

just like in our history things get out sooner or later at least

even if the idea is keeped secret

[Agent_137]

i think, OOCly, the point is moot.

I think, ICly, you should believe whatever you want your character to believe.

Is he a free thinker? Go ahead, say Muk Utep doesn't exist, and the templarate are just using it for a cover to hold on to power. See if anyone listens.*

*Disclaimer: I accept no responsibility for your character's health after suggesting such.


Also, read this thread, it deals with the god-king question:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16678

You know that big dragon out in front of Allanak? They built that after Tektolnes morphed into a dragon and breathed on a besieging dwarven army, VAPORIZING them all.

I believe in Tektolnes.

[Tarx]

just like in our history things get out sooner or later at least

even if the idea is keeped secret

But magic didn't exist in our history, nor did two immensely powerful sorcerer-king people.  Knowledge is power and they hold just about all of it.

Besides, it wouldn't be a harsh, desert-world environment anymore if things started progressing.  And I dunno about you but I like harsh.

[Marauder Moe]

Lets not forget the fact that if said breakthrough came from a commoner, it would never be recorded in writing.  Once he and his family dies, the knowledge goes with them.

[Anonymous]

i mean just becuase its a harsh world where there is rare amounts of metal dosn't mean things arn't learnt and discovered.
who knows maby a large stock pile of metal is found amd the bronze age is born in arma now that would be cool...

There are things discovered in the game. I think the majority of the discoveries are kept secrect from the commoners by the templars. Also, it might result in the death of the PC that discovered it, and the discovery kept a secrect.

[quote name="Larrath"]I don't really think making a bronze age in Arm would make the game better on any level at all. All it would really mean is that some of the weapons and armor would be a little better.
[/quote]

I agree. If metal items could become obtained easily, it'd take a lot from the game. It wouldn't be Armageddon anymore.

[quote name="Marauder Moe"]
Lets not forget the fact that if said breakthrough came from a commoner, it would never be recorded in writing. Once he and his family dies, the knowledge goes with them.[/quote]

Breakthroughs are sometimes recorded. It will not be recorded by a commoner, but if someone who have the right to write is interested, they will more than likely record the event and add it to some sort of library.

[Yokunama]

i mean just becuase its a harsh world where there is rare amounts of metal dosn't mean things arn't learnt and discovered.
who knows maby a large stock pile of metal is found amd the bronze age is born in arma now that would be cool...

There are things discovered in the game. I think the majority of the discoveries are kept secrect from the commoners by the templars. Also, it might result in the death of the PC that discovered it, and the discovery kept a secrect.

I don't really think making a bronze age in Arm would make the game better on any level at all. All it would really mean is that some of the weapons and armor would be a little better.

I agree. If metal items could become obtained easily, it'd take a lot from the game. It wouldn't be Armageddon anymore.

Lets not forget the fact that if said breakthrough came from a commoner, it would never be recorded in writing. Once he and his family dies, the knowledge goes with them.

Breakthroughs are sometimes recorded. It will not be recorded by a commoner, but if someone who have the right to write is interested, they will more than likely record the event and add it to some sort of library.[/quote]

That was my post.

Oopsie! :oops:

[Larrath]

In addition to illiteracy, and the fact that most commoners are too busy looking for water to make (or care about) any research, there are also mindbenders.

And about the comment that things always get out in the real world -- says who?  In the end of the day, you only know what the press says, what the schools teach you, what the books say and what you see on television or gets passed down your family.  Even with us people being able to write...let's say aliens.
Suppose that there were advanced aliens out there that communicated with the Earth, and the governments didn't want anyone to know that.  It's even plausible that this is the case today.  It's not hard for the governments to decide that anyone who insists that he interacted with aliens is insane and have him committed or killed.

Yeah.

[ibusoe]

Awesome idea, Adrien.

[Rindan]

The rulers of Allanak and Tuluk probably already known what is 'next' in terms of technology.  Remember, Zalanthas is a post-apocalyptic world.  It once had great powerful and advanced societies.  While we don't know how much of the knowledge from that old society was persevered, we can assume that some was.  Allanak in particular has a great library where one would presume ancient knowledge is persevered.  So if they know what is 'next' why don't they just go out and achieved it?  There are two reasons in my mind.

First, they lack the materials.  If the only things you had to work with was bone, rock, and a little bit of wood, there would be some pretty halting limits on what you could achieve.  Without metal, a lot of the most basic inventions become damn near impossible.  The stuff and the knowledge to make a gun is all pretty common with the singular exception that there is no way to make a barrel that won't catch fire or explode without metal.

Second, the leaders of the "civilized" world simply don't want to advance.  Today we live with the paradigm that technological advancement is inevitable.  This is a very new and modern paradigm.  Up until the last few hundred years, technology moved at a snails pace.  Most societies thought of history as a circular cycle, and not a path forward as we do today.

Throw on top of already slow advancement with the fact that old Tek and Muk don't want the world to advance, and things come to a grinding halt.  In the dawn of the colonial age, China was actually a great deal more advanced then Europe.  What separated two was that China's rulers intentionally suppressed knowledge and advancement.  If the relatively small bureaucracy of China was able to suppress advancement on such a massive area of land, imagine how easy it is for Tek to suppress advancement in a single city with a massive police force.  If Muk and Tek don't want to advance, they don't have to.  They have more then enough power to grind things to a halt.

[Tarx]

Rindan, that was probably the best post I've seen in a while that really helped me take another look at this.  I forgot the origins of Zalanthas. Thanks for the refresher!

[spawnloser]

So, wait...everything always makes it out in the real world?  Does anyone here know why there were three bullets from different angles that killed Kennedy?  Does anyone know who the other two shooters were?

Yeah, not everything makes it out in the real world.

[Cuusardo]

Historical information is released on a need to know basis on Zalanthas.  Those in power tell you what they feel you need to know.  Chances are if something they want kept a secret gets out, the people who know will vanish.  Either that, or they'll be killed flat out for blasphemy.

[adrien]

as far as i know nothing new has been made in the game for the 5 years i played and the game has been around for say.....15ish?  how many years is one real life year?

[Folker]

Was there always flashpowder?

[Tarx]

Oh, undoubtedly there are innovations and new things that occur, but not the technological or philosophical ones that are implied by some of the previous posts.  A few things that have undoubtedly changed how the world works:

Spice.
Luir's Outpost, both being overrun and retaken and rebuilt.
Tuluk.  That whole invasion thing.
Steinal.  If only briefly.
Flashpowder?  I'm not sure on this one.  Tomorrow during downtime and when I have some free time, I will probably revisit the history files and see what I can scrounge up.

Things like civil rights movements, overthrowing sorcerer kings, and stuff like that won't happen.  Magick goes a long way in the game, and two immensely powerful beings that want things their way WILL keep them that way barring the demise of one of them.

Something else to consider:  read up on the Dark Ages (commonly known as the Middle Ages).  You'll find some striking similarities (at least among Western cultures):

Illiteracy.
Educational deficiency.
People are dependent on powerful rulers to protect them and manage them.
These powerful rulers could read, write, and just KNEW more.

See any similarities?  I hope so.  The Middle Ages had advances, undoubtedly--but not many noticeable ones.  I hope you do take a look at that, it will help you understand the period that Zalanthas is probably going to remain in indefinitely.  (In my opinion.)

Despite having Tek and Muk, there is always the enviroment. I am, after looking into what sort of consitions Zalanthas has, suprised with that the society is just this advanced.

Humans have been driven near extinction in the real world because of natural conditions - on Earth, those were ice and ridicculously big predators, but I do think sand combined with insufficent means (non-metal weapons and tools) and mean critters would work as well.

The thing that propably keeps Zalanthas as advanced is just the magic that keeps it from advancing further. And if magic is the thing that keeps city-states and society up, I don't think mages in general would like to give up this power by letting the mundane man advance with mechanics.

[spawnloser]

Yes, there have been things invented.

However, there's not much call for invention in a world where there is magick and psionics running rampant.

The inventions have been small and not too terribly visible.  Only a few people know that some things were invented in game...usually the people involved in the inventing.  Others just take it for granted.

[Sarus]

First, they lack the materials.  If the only things you had to work with was bone, rock, and a little bit of wood, there would be some pretty halting limits on what you could achieve.  Without metal, a lot of the most basic inventions become damn near impossible.  The stuff and the knowledge to make a gun is all pretty common with the singular exception that there is no way to make a barrel that won't catch fire or explode without metal.

Okay, I am sorry, but being a gun enthusiast and seeing you say that...... A red flag went up in my head. First of all, It would be a simple task to make gunpowder (or the cruder blackpowder) in Zalanthas. Black powder is Salt,-easily found in all deserts, Charcoal-easily made, sulfur-could find some in just about any desert cave, and potassium nitrate/saltpeter- can be found on any animal's decomposing feces. After some people started playing with ratios of the ingredients, they would discover that it is 74% saltpeter, 10% sulfur, 15%salt, and 1% charcoal.

Next, the first cannon in Colonial America was made of wood. Although the wood broke after several shots(and killed the people shooting it), It worked nonetheless. Next, they could use either slate, obsidian, or crystaline salt for the slug(bullet). Even if Zalanthians did not want to use a wooden gun, there are other options. Metal is not the only material used in the barrels or stocks of guns. You may have heared of a pistol called a glock. It is a highly effective weapon that can shoot underwater or filled with sand. The reason is that it is made of.............Porcelain. Yes porcelain. The same material your toiletbowl and your plates are made of.
That is why glocks are favored among criminals. If you have a porcelain slug in your bullet, no metal detector can even tell. With a small bullet, you could even use the femur(hip bone) of one of the bigger creatures on Zalanthas. The only probalem would be the barrel expanding, but that is an easy fix. Wrap the barrel (bone) in wet rawhide and then leave it to dry. Rawhide shrinks an incredible amount after drying, making sufficient reinforcement for the barrel.

All I am saying it that it is quite plausable that Zalanthians would make a cannon next. From whatever material.


I love guns

[Marauder Moe]

All the plans for wooden cannons I've seen have had bands of metal around them for strength.  I don't think wood by itself is strong enough to contain the explosion, unless you used a HUGE tree.

But anyway... why the hell would you go through all that trouble to make a cannon that shoots a little rock when you have magickers that can easily toss around huge balls of fire?  Or if you're Tuluki... why would you go through that effort when you know the enemy already has access to weapons far superior?  It'd be like modern-day terrorists trying to develop aircraft from scratch to compete with the US Air Force (please don't interpret this statement as a political analogy, that simile is meant purely in terms of technological levels  :roll: ).

[HardCarbon]

Things that could be invented...

Fused diamond. Or ruby equipment.... Created by an earth/fire weapon smith.  ((Julian May's books))
Medical tools (Arrow drills sutures (we have a lot of gut))
Siege weapons (ballistia catapults)  for wagons etc.
Windproof lanterns or at least wind resistant.
Windmills (for grinding flour perhaps bone)
Trained war beasties
Staff slings
Atalai (the throwing stick)

The rulers of Allanak and Tuluk probably already known what is

[Maybe42or54]

Things that could be invented...

Fused diamond. Or ruby equipment.... Created by an earth/fire weapon smith.  ((Julian May's books))
Medical tools (Arrow drills sutures (we have a lot of gut))
Siege weapons (ballistia catapults)  for wagons etc.
Windproof lanterns or at least wind resistant.
Windmills (for grinding flour perhaps bone)
Trained war beasties
Staff slings
Atalai (the throwing stick)

There are already windmills and war beasties.

[Cegar]

Who needs a windproof lantern when we have glow crystals?

[HardCarbon]

Who needs a windproof lantern when we have glow crystals?

Suckers probably cause mutations...

[Angela Christine]

It takes many steps for something new to become a common consumer product.  I don't actually know anything about the procedure, but those steps may include:

1.  Someone has an idea or discovery for a potential breakthrough, this can theoretically happen to anyone at anytime.  Apples fall on lots of people's heads, they don't all "discover" gravity.

2.  Big Money intervenes to refine and develop the idea.  This could be a government, large corperation, sizable inheritence, etc.  Something that allows a person or team of people to tinker with the idea without starving or running out of materials.

3.  The idea is developed into an expensive product of intrest to a few people.  Most people still don't know about it.  Some people who would want it can't afford it.  Some people know about it and who can afford it don't want it, because they don't trust it or prefer to keep using the old faithful product/procedure that they have been using for years.  

4.  Improvements in manufacturing, economy of scale, advertising and so on make the product a little cheaper and more well known, so more people want it.  It becomes well known and somewhat commonplace among upper-middle classes and better.

5.  Even cheaper, lower quality models are developed, and some of the earlier models become available on the second-hand market.  At this point the product is well known through all but the poorest segment of society.  This is the point in our world where a version of the product becomes available at places like Wal-Mart.

That is sort of a best-case senario where the technology goes from the reaserch stage to common consumer product in 10-15 years.  Sometimes an idea just doesn't take off.  The technology for video telephones has been available on Earth for decades, yet it still is nowhere near replacing audio-only telephones, to the dispair of 2001: A Space Odessy fans everywhere.  Video conferencing and web-cams are becoming somewhat common, but it looks like plain old telephones will still be in common use for decades to come.


In Zalanthas, take the example of medical equipment.  The current technology level could certainly certainly support some improvements in the medical equipment currently available to PC physicians.  Are people really stuck using nothing but "bandages" and "bandages with herbs"?  Why isn't there any visible progress in this field?

1.  Many of the rich people (the sort that fund research) don't need it.  If they need anything more than a band-aid and a cup of tea they have can afford magickal or divine healing.

2.  There are no institutions dedicated to the progress of mundane healing methods.

There may well be some progress, a wealthy house probably does have a private physician, perhaps more than one, plus a few field medics.  Some of those physicians will have time to tinker and develop improvements in equipment and procedures, but there is no system in place for those improvements to spread.  Medical care is done in private, there is no way and no reason for her methods to spread to anyone except her own apprentice, if she has one.  An old, experienced doctor probably has several methods and bits of custom made equipment that are unique, unfortunately most of her knowledge will die with her, and her equipment will be put to other uses.

All it would take to see dramatic improvements in medical care would be some wealthy organizations to establish a college of physicians and surgeons along with a charity hospital.  A charity hospital doen't just provide cheap or free healthcare to the poor, another important aspect of early charity hospitals was that they gave doctors unimportant people to experiment on.  If you have a nifty new idea you may be reluctant to test it out on your wealthy patron, if he is injured by it you'll get into trouble, but you can test it on charity cases, people who don't have the influence to get you into trouble and who probably would have died soon anyway.  Lots of doctors tinkering with hundreds of patients soon sorts out the good ideas from the loony ones, setting the stage for the next set of improvements on the good ideas.  But it is unlikely that anyone will set up a Charity Hospital in Zalanthas.  Most places simply don't have the resources to undertake the project.  Allanak might be able to muster the resources, but the rich in Allanak have easy access to magickal healers.  Tuluk has much less tollerence of magic and more resources than almost anywhere else in the world, but even in Tuluk the culture just doesn't seem likely to encourage anyone to set up a charity hospital.  So medical technology stagnates.


Medicine is an easy example, but the same sort of factors affect every kind of technological development.  No one is going to set up a university type structure for the free and open exchange of ideas.  Newspapers and reviewed journals are completely out of the question.  Those organazations that do have something akin to an R&D department are going to focus on fairly narrow fields, and are going to do their very best to prevent their discoveries from becoming public.


These are the dark ages, not the age of enlightenment.  Discoveries are made, but rarely distributed outside the family, and so they are usually lost within a generation or two.  A particularily organized scholarly type might write it down, but in all probability his dull looking journals will be added to the family archive and rarely read, and even more rarely will their value be understood and recognised.  It is hardly necessary for most new discoveries to be actively surpressed, in the current culture the knowledge will tend to wither away.


Angela Christine