Crim-flag a punishment to player, not the character?

[Criminal]

Hey all.  I'd like to ask the general populace of Armageddon on what they think of the crim-code being a punishment more to the player than it is to the character who's got it tacked onto them.

The way I see it, most crimes are going to be an hour to two hours for that flag to wear off, whether it be hiding in shops or spending time in jail.  For your character, sure you can roleplay that out being anguishing for them, but how do you feel about that?  You get to sit with your character for the whole hour or two, waiting (unless you conveniantely committed your crime in a quit-safe room).  This prevents you, the player, from really doing anything else except Armageddon for the whole time, doesn't it?  If you leave your computer, your character will be idling (and would that be viewed as bad to the staff?).  If you let her/him idle, soldiers or templars or whoever may catch up to you, and if it happens to be a PC, you can't respond to them, because you aren't there.  Leaving your character linkdead is even worse, and definitely bad RP (using OOC concepts to get yourself out of a sticky situation).

Should the crim-code be a punishment to the player?  If you have to wait for your flag to go away, Armageddon prevents you from doing anything else, because something might happen when you're not attending to the game.  Another problem is the roleplay if you do have the time to wait.  An hour or two of solo-RP, twiddling thumbs and thinking gets tedious after a while.

So what do you think?  Is staying in hiding or doing jail time worse for you or your character?

[Rhyden]

You get to sit with your character for the whole hour or two, waiting (unless you conveniantely committed your crime in a quit-safe room).

If you're suggesting that committing a crime and quitting out is ok then you'd be greatly mistaken.

Aside from that, I like the way it is now. The punishment done to your character is reflected to the player by the amount of time spent in jail and what ever other punishment is dealt to your character. And if the player is irritated with the punishment you receive then your character probably will be as well, which means the system works.

The only reason I can think of that would be for your suggestion would be commiting a crime, being dragged to jail, being punished with a series of echos and then being sent right back out. This would of course lead to lots of abuse since you could easily comit a hundred crimes in a few hours this way.

As for whether it's worse for the player or character? Character. You're not being prisoned, you gotta wait an hour or so for your own character to get out of jail. In the mean time, whatever character you have in jail is probably debating whether a templar is going to come in and ask some questions or not and if then whether they're gonna use the whip or burn off a limb or two.

[Moofassa]

It depends on how you roleplay it. -YOU- decide the impact the punishment has on your character. It shouldn't be a punishment to the player at all. I personally enjoy getting sent to jail, specifically for the RP it brings. Yea, it can get boring sometimes, but usually you'll find a nice imm to play with, or just amuse yourself with a fellow prisoner.


My 4 sids.

[Rindan]

The punishments imposed by the code are very mild compared to what they should be.  A thief who is caught should probably be fined at the least and have his hand chopped off if he can't pay.  A few hours of the day in jail is an very gentle punishment.

As to getting wanted, I think you vastly over estimate the wanted times.  For most small crimes, it is well under an hour that you are wanted.  It is only a few IC hours which is only a few tens of minutes.

That said, if you have an alternative, speak up.  You have said what you don't like, but what is the alternative you are suggesting?

[wizturbo]

You can always wish up and tell the staff you've been naughty.  You might get some fun interactions that way, and you'd be surprised how many interesting things occur for people's characters through being arrested.

[Marauder Moe 2L2L]

It's absolutely a punishment to the player as well as the character.  I don't see what's wrong with punishing players, though.  It makes it easier to more realistically RP the risk of being caught doing something illegal.  If you can just quit out and serve your jail time you'll have more players doing risky crime and assault when really their character should think twice about it.

[spawnloser]

Plus, getting jailed and logging out robs you and the appropriate law-enforcing characters of the city with interaction.  Yes, sometimes you'd rather not have your character die due to that interaction, but it can happen.  It's a LOT more realistic than killing someone in cold blood for 7 'sid and then being out the next day without a, "how's your mother?"

[Bebop]

I totally agree with you the wait time to commiting a crime is way way to long.  Over two IG game days and sometimes over a two hour wait period the last four times I was wanted this was the case.  One time attempting to subdue someone in my hallway which I don't see as that bad.  Yet though I was in a hall lacking NPC's and PC's both, I couldn't play for the next two hours.  I had to sit around emoting sitting around for two game days.  Very akward.  This is why I can't stand to play sneaky characters because it's not worth it, you try to steal off one person and you end up not getting to play for the next two hours while you're huddle in a room.  I really like sneaky characters and those that pull it off, kudos.  Maybe I'm just doing something wrong.  I seem to be able to successfully pull of the crime and get back to a place to hide, but that doesn't take away the horrendous waiting period.

I think there are plenty IG justifications to this, just like when there are IG justifications to a soldier running in.

As well sometimes going to jail is not a good option.  They take away your weapons and I believe any other types of contraband like lockpicks already highly expensive and hard to come by.  From my experience it seems that waiting in jail does give you less of a wait time, but at a very very high cost.  And unless you've outright done something in front of PC's which alot of sneaky type characters avoid I would say it's likely that you aren't going to get much interaction within the jail.  Sure if there is some big thing with your character blantly defying a templar in a tavern or something that's one way of getting interactino in jail but I'm talking about sneaky characters who just make their day to day living through cirme.  As well in the rinth there is an obvious lack of soldiers but not all sneaky characters, are from, familiar with or belong in the rinth IC or OOC.

I personally think it would be a very good idea to reconsider the time that the wanted status stays on and maybe different amounts of waiting periods for different crimes if it's not like that already.  I think to even make a character way a RL hour is pushing it.  What are you supposed to do for a whole hour? [EDIT: Much less two or three?]  And how likely is it that the soldiers in this massive city are going to be so devout?  First of all murder happens everyday, secondly they may not have seen this crime first hand, as well not all guards may have been alerted etc, there are alot of IG reasons just as well that the wanted status should be limited, in my opinion.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

What, would you prefer they just kill you instead?

[Bebop]

What, would you prefer they just kill you instead?

I don't know how you would gather that from my post.

Here is a quote from my post in this thread that sums it all up:

I personally think it would be a very good idea to reconsider the time that the wanted status stays on and maybe different amounts of waiting periods for different crimes if it's not like that already.

[Morfeus]

I did not get why being wanted makes you unable to play. You don't want to sit in your apartment waiting? No problem, go out and get yourself jailed. You don't want that either? Try to get out of the city without being caught.

[Barzalene]

If it could be implimented, and I'm not saying that anyone should drop what they're doing to work on this, maybe this would be more realistic: If you commit a level a crime, have npcs in an area of x rooms be alerted immediately, if you commit level b crime, have npcs in an area of x rooms be alerted immediately, and after a certain amount of time have npcs throughout the city alerted for the remainder of the time you are crimmed.

[Anonymous]

I think the problem is that viewing it as a 'punishment' to the player implies a number of things about roleplaying a criminal PC and that it is 'bad'.

The reality is, however, that without deterrents against open and wanton player-killing and theft we would be at the mercy of every one with enough skill/motivation to train up a warrior who doesn't give a crap about IC motivations and just wants to kill some long-lived characters.

That's what I view the current incarnation of the crimcode as, not a punishment, but a deterrent against being a spam-stealing pickpocket or a homicidal maniac.

[Spoon]

I'm with CRW. The big picture is, the mud needs this to protect new and old players alike from bad RP.

The fact that good RPers get arrested/brutally murdered by the militia is just plain realistic.

I think getting pissed off with spending time in jail is part of the learning curve of the game. At one point you realise that you don't actually have to get caught every time you commit a crime.

[Maybe42or54]

It is the same for a Pc's death. Is it more of a punichsment for you, or your pc? Both. Why? Because now surviving where you would have died is more fun.

Getting away when you could have gone to jail a little more fun than getting rid of the time and you OOCly thinking, I'll only be in jail for 4 seconds, I'll go. Sure, what do I have to lose?

[Bebop]

I think what some of you are failing to realize is that even if you sneak away and rp the crime correctly which I have done, you still have a two hour wait time, even if you don't go to jail.  It's a deterent not only to stealing but to avioding sneaky characters such as burglars, pick pockets and assassins entirely because they are supposed to commit crimes to survive.  And I'm not talking about you have to wait that long just for killing someone in my experience it's been with any crime.  I definitely think it should be a deterent we don't want people running around hack and slash but at the same time the wait is so long, it's pretty much not worth playing the character because you don't get to -play- the character.  Sneaky characters have to commit crimes to survive I shouldn't get to play in two and a half hour intervals because I selected that kind of character that must steal.


And to get out of the gates with a wanted status on your head is pretty much insane.  For trying to steal a scarf off someone why would some poor commoner want to flee the city?

[Maybe42or54]

Yes. The police shouldn't look for you longer than you would serve, that just sounds like a waste of manpower.

[Bebop]

You know, I know some people pull these characters off quiet well but not being able to play the game for two to three hours is overly harsh in my opinion even if I manage to sneak away without getting caught by the militia there are just as many IG justifications as to why the wait time should be lowerd as there are IG justifications as to why the shouldn't.  I've stated my opinion I'm not going to bicker back and forth with comments like the above or like the one by FiveDisgruntledEtc because you aren't actually reading the posts or just want to bicker.  I'm entitled to my opinion you're entitled to your own.  I'm just trying to be constructive.

[Original Poster]

I like what Bebop is saying.  For the sake of realism, I think that even one hour for critically failing the steal skill is too much.  The streets of both city-states have a fair amount of pickpockets, so seeing one of them attempt a theft shouldn't prompt the entire militia (which I think it does for any crim-flagged person) to be on the lookout for a little under a day.

For murder or attempted murder, I can definitely see the militia being alerted, because lives are at stake, and I can see them being alerted for that amount of time.

[Spoon]

I think that punishing the player forces good RP on people. The coded shit on the floor doesn't bother you, but it bother's your PC. Your PC thus doesn't want to go to jail. You don't want to have to spend a few hours waiting around in a tiny room until your PC gets let out. You also don't want to go to jail. This way EVERY character will HATE going to jail. Even if their player is a terrible RPer, you are FORCED AGAINST YOUR WILL to think the same thing as your PC.

I think that made sense... just ask if you don't understand my e-vomit.


Also, I seriously believe that you'll get over the fact your PC recently ended up in jail for a few hours.

[Bebop]

Once again, I would simply like to reiterate.  Even if you don't get dragged to jail you DO have to sit in a small room where no one is around and wait for your wanted status to go away.  This from my experience takes RL hours.  EVEN if you RP correctly and sneak away you still have to wait for your wanted status to go away. EVEN if you just get caught mid-theft not even actually getting the item you wanted, which could be anything from a half-eaten biscuit to who knows what.  You will still be waiting like you killed someone.  It's the same thing as jail only difference is your weapons and possible contraband don't get snatched up.  That is the only difference and maybe -less- of a wait time if you got to jail.

[Maybe42or54]

If only soldiers had to the power to get rid of peoples "wanted" status if it is beneath a certain limit.

[jcarter]

Once again, I would simply like to reiterate.  Even if you don't get dragged to jail you DO have to sit in a small room where no one is around and wait for your wanted status to go away.  This from my experience takes RL hours.  EVEN if you RP correctly and sneak away you still have to wait for your wanted status to go away. EVEN if you just get caught mid-theft not even actually getting the item you wanted, which could be anything from a half-eaten biscuit to who knows what.  You will still be waiting like you killed someone.  It's the same thing as jail only difference is your weapons and possible contraband don't get snatched up.  That is the only difference and maybe -less- of a wait time if you got to jail.

If you have a TV, you can turn it on and watch it while you're in prison or do a variety of other things. You don't have to stare at echoes for three hours.

[Bebop]

The kind of defeats the purpose of playing the game for fun doesn't it?  And if you are someone who has to commit crimes for a living... uh like I said you might as well not play at all if this is what you are going to be doing the whole time right?

[joyofdiscord]

The kind of defeats the purpose of playing the game for fun doesn't it?  And if you are someone who has to commit crimes for a living... uh like I said you might as well not play at all if this is what you are going to be doing the whole time right?

The thing is, this is a completely flawed assumption.  Someone who commits crimes for a living (and does so intelligently), -doesn't- do that the whole time.  I play mostly criminal PCs, and I assure you, the vast majority of my login time is -not- spent waiting off crimflags or solo-RPing in a dungeon cell.