Sexual Assault and The Man

[LauraMars]

All right, something someone said in another thead made me curious...and I'm not sure what to look for with the search function, so hopefully Agent_137 will be able to forgive me for starting a new thread.

Where does sexual assault stand with the templarate in Allanak?

You get beat up and dragged down for taking a swing at someone in the street, so I'd imagine that if the code is a reliable picture of the law in Allanak, sexual assault/rape/things of that nature would be a quick trip to a long wait...in prison.

Obviously "rape" isn't coded (and god, let it never happen) but if you ran and alerted a PC templar that you'd just had forced sexual intercourse, what would her/his reaction be?  Can people get crim-flagged for that shit?  And does this extend to things such as domestic violence?

Somebody said Allanak was like a police state, which I thought was pretty apt.  But then again, sex is supposed to be handled differently on Zalanthas.  *shrug*  So.  Thoughts?

[jhunter]

I don't think it's actually against the law. Not sure though, I don't think this question has been asked before.

[Larrath]

I don't think rape would be different from assault in Allanak, Tuluk or anywhere else that isn't a tribe.
Zalanthans are probably just very desentisized to these things, and sex as a whole is much less of a taboo, both as far as sexual relations and rape goes, imho.

If you tell a templar that Jane commoner is getting raped in an alley by a couple of 'rinthis, the templar might slap you with a fine, a lashing or even a day in prison if you annoy them with it.  Of course, some templars might really, really hate rape (from disliking half-elves maybe) and do more than what they would do about ordinary non-lethal assault.

[JohnGalt]

Depends on the Templar.  Depends on the size of the "donation" made to do something about it.  Depends on the social status of the victim.  Depends on the social status of the attacker.

[ashyom]

Rape is illegal in both cities, I believe.  And I believe the standing policy is that a majority of the known world have little to no tolerance for that behavior.

[Marauder Moe]

Really?

I would have thought that the templarate/miltia simply doesn't care at all about crimes committed in private, and in public rape would be just as illegal as any other form of excessive public lewdness/violence.

Edit: Unless, of course, the accuser had money and/or social status to motivate said templar/soldier.  Again, though, that's the same as any other crime or non-crime that has no evidence.

[Conspiracy Theory]

Rape is illegal in both cities, I believe. And I believe the standing policy is that a majority of the known world have little to no tolerance for that behavior.

That seems odd to me, given the number of half-elves about.

[LauraMars]

That seems odd to me, given the number of half-elves about.

The playerbase is not an accurate sample of the population...though to be fair there do seem to be a lot of half-elven npcs as well.

[Delirium]

Whores, drunken debauchery, etc, etc.. though the documentation does say that they are frequently the children of rape.

[Larrath]

Rape is illegal in both cities, I believe.  And I believe the standing policy is that a majority of the known world have little to no tolerance for that behavior.

If this truly is the case, I must say I'm a little sad.  There are enough 'countermeasures' to rape in the game.  In fact, there are more than enough, since players are can, with a single OOC word, prevent their character from being raped no matter how, when or why.  (With the possible exceptions of plot lines, at which case the character will probably be killed or made a VNPC).
It's enough that the twinks will almost always want to kill a character who'd commited rape and will go to unlikely lengths to do so, but sending the Militia and Templarate after them is ridiculous.

Having the consent rule to monitor rape is just fine.  If violent muggings happen every day and are an expected part of life, I don't see why the degenerate Zalanthan society should have zero-tolerance for rape.  Even murder isn't always accepted, and human purity or well-being isn't usually listed very high.
Many aides, male and female, are practically expected to give sexual favors to their employers.  Same as merchants.  There are prostitutes at all levels of society, from the 5-'sid nobodies to super-influential wenches that charge over 700 a pop.  Concubines are commonly available for sale, again for practically all price ranges.  The whole attitude regarding sex, in every location of the game I've seen with the sole, possible exception of Tuluki nobles and templars, is extremely relaxed.
In Zalanthas, I think most rape victims would be more happy about not being dead or having any bones broken than they would be upset about having been raped.

I'm not saying rape is shrugged at in Zalanthas, but rape is not a fate worse than death over there.  I think there are enough OOC views that will inevitably seep in whenever rape is involved.
If rape is looked at as worse (or even nearly as terrible) as murder, I suggest this is given serious reconsideration.

Of course, this all varies on bribes and social ranking.  Someone who raped a young noble should, definitely, have more assassins in a ten-mile radius around him than grains of sand in a twenty-mile radius.

[Armaddict]

Kinda confused by this as well.

Kind of goes out of the 'might makes right' feel of the game, in my opinion.  As well as the not caring about anyone but yourself deal.

Not that I expect players to do it, but I never thought it would be altogether uncommon in the lower classes.  You see how often it happens in america, and that's where people -do- hate it and it -is- actively worked against and everyone does have their rights.

Seems to be almost counter-cultural to me, though...that could just be me being retarded.

[Conspiracy Theory]

I agree with the others. Seems to me like it'd be a personal thing rather than any sort of "no tolerance", gather-the-torches-and-pitchforks kind of reaction from the populace, whom you don't even see blink at the mention of murder much of the time.

Sex isn't such a sacred thing on Zalanthas, or so I'm led to believe - survival takes priority. I'd think a typical victim from the commons or especially the Labyrinth (at least if I were playing them) would much rather be raped than have their sid, food, or water taken from them. Of course, such crimes might well go hand-in-hand.

Were I a high-and-mighty templar, I'd have thought the rape of a commoner (doubly so an elf or half-breed) was a pretty minor crime on par with theft, personally.

Of course, rape is a whole new level of disrespect for your betters - if you raped a noble you should well expect to be horribly maimed and killed if caught.

[jhunter]

It being illegal seems out of place for this world. I'm sure that a human mother doesn't volunteer to mate with a dwarf to create muls. Slavery is legal and accepted but rape isn't? Seems OOC if you ask me. So what...it's rape if the victim is -not- your property?

[LauraMars]

Oh shit, I made another rape thread.  What have you done, Laura.  What have you done.

[jmordetsky]

Like all things on Zalanthass, it would depend on your social status, and it would follow the same rules as assault or murder:


My thoughts:

Noble/Templar assaults any other non-noble/templar - Legal.

Commoner assaults commoner - Illegal.

Commoner assaults slave - Very much up to who owns the slave. Most likely people are going to be pissed if you fucked their property up.

Slave assaults anyone - illegal, though slave on slave is going to be up to the owner.

Noble/Templar assaults Noble/Templar - Depends. I would imagine if this was done in public it would be publicly punished. If it wasn't in public (ie in the eyes of the common) then it would be dealt with harshly or not depending on the ranks of those involved.

In all cases if it was ordered by a noble/templar it would be essentially, legal.



That said, the OC rules around this sort of thing have been stated and should be respected. I'm just trying to give some coloring to legalities.

[Intrepid]

While I agree, Zalanthas is a harsh environ, rape in such a world probably
isn't going to be considered theft.  It's more like assault, but with the
added dangers of disease being spread.  No matter how callous the
templar is, he/she is usually practical enough to be wary of rampant
raping because there is the fear of turning your city state into a giant
incubator.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

The important thing to remember is that rape does not equal sex. It's a form of assault. Rape victims can be permanently injured by their assailant, not to mention shattered mentally. The templarate would stamp out rape to the best of their ability for the same reason they wouldn't allow roving gangs of elves to mug passers-by or rampant, indiscriminate killing in the streets. Sure, they might not personally care if you're stolen from, killed, or cornholed, but there job is still to enforce the law (even if the laws are of their own devising). People live in the city-states because it gives them food, water, and big stone walls that keep them relatively safe from crap like rape, murder and theft. Templars allowing gang-rape to go along unchecked would be sort of counterproductive to creating a functioning society.
There are, of course, matters of personal bias when it comes down to the specific templar. We all know that, caught in the clutches of an unscrupulous templar, you're likely going to get yourself killed or raped if you don't come up with a decent bribe. I also think a single PC templar has every right to turn away a rape victim, saying they're "too busy" to deal with it. The thing to remember, though, is that this is only one templar, and there are probably virtually dozens of other blue-robes of Jihaens that are all too eager to take down another criminal and improve their reputation. A while an elf might rape an elf and get away with it, an elf that rapes a human will probably be staring down the business end of a Gaj pretty soon.
My point is that rape is illegal in the city-states. Protection from things like murder, rape and theft are pretty basic things people expect from their government. It's probably the only reason they don't attempt to simply get up and leave the state, in fact. While enforcement of the law might vary from situation to situation or player to player, the fact is that the law exists, and it is IC, realistic, and perfectly reasonable.

[amoeba]

[content self edited into oblivion]

[Larrath]

No matter how callous the templar is, he/she is usually practical enough to be wary of rampant raping because there is the fear of turning your city state into a giant incubator.

I doubt most templars really care about any small-scale (fifty deaths or less) epidemics.  You'd have to rape a whole lot of unimportant people for the Templarate to take notice, and even then they might not care much as long as you only assaulted unimportant people.
I don't think it's very IC to say that the Templarate, in both cities, probably have their ways to deal with epidemics even if they do break out.  And Zalanthas doesn't have STDs like AIDS.
There are two common diseases that are basically similar to pubic lice with bloody urine, and only one other disease that rarely leads to death.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I don't think it's out of place for rape to be illegal. I agree that a) Zalanthans would be uber desensitized to it, b) The templar don't care much, and c) Rape isn't as severely looked upon as it is IRL. But rape is still rape, and by definition unconsentual.

It's not illegal for someone to give you some coins, but it is illegal for someone to take your coins. Think of rape along the same lines. Maybe rape would only be a 50 coin fine, but it would still be a fine. I know if I were a templar / militiaman and I saw a rape, I would treat it at least the same way I would treat a barfight. With a swift "Stop that, stop that" and/or an asskicking of appropriate magnitude.

Rape is violent. A fight is violent. I really don't see how the templarate could care about brawls but not rape. I just don't.

[Intrepid]

I don't think it's very IC to say that the Templarate, in both cities, probably have their ways to deal with epidemics even if they do break out. And Zalanthas doesn't have STDs like AIDS.

Actually, syphllis is one of the classic old world STDs, and it leads to
insanity and death.  It's also particularly virulent and can potentially
infect an enclosed civilization like a city-state from top to bottom within
the space of ten years.  Fifty people aren't going to phase the templarate,
I agree--500 will though.  Given the primitive medical knowledge in
Zalanthas, enclosed communities that are all interconnected by merchants
and Bynners, and no real compunctions against sexual intercourse with
multiple partners, the potential for disaster is great enough--now
imagine about ten people raping scores of individuals and spreading an
infection in one of the city-states without law enforcement cracking down.
There is a limited populace in the the Known World, and most of it is
centralized in two cities and a handful of villages.  You don't even need
something as severe as AIDS to wipe out the populace.

Even if we don't use the Syphllis example, an STD doesn't have to be
fatal to make the local authorities' lives a collective living hell.

[Maybe42or54]

It is theft (or mugging) afterall.

One person gets happier, one gets more pissed off and abused.

[HardCarbon]

I don't think it's actually against the law. Not sure though, I don't think this question has been asked before.

 Before you start talking about legal.. illegal...    consider one important thing...


   The Mud Rules...


Any laws are going to fit around them..    Rape without  permission is one of the few ways to get the  staff to reach through your internet connection.. strangle you.. then throw your computer out a window.

[Larrath]

I'm going to sum up the STD issue with this:

Lover's Bleed - Well known to be spread sexually, this affliction manifests as bloody urine, pelvic pain, and a red, itchy rash on the thighs. Those [/i]rare few[/i] who don't improve over a matter of days will note that their volume of urine gradually decreases over the course of weeks, until they can no longer urinate. After the cessation of urination, the victim grows slowly but progressively confused and then comatose, before inevitably dying. Those in the sex trade often use various fragrant salves applied daily to the genitals to prevent this common disease.

Sand Fleas - Sand Fleas are much like Kank Fleas, though they strike only the genital area. They are transmitted through sexual contact and sleeping in a contaminated bed or wearing contaminated clothing. They cause itching and blue spots on the skin can sometimes appear. They can be removed by removal of infested hair and something acidic put on the skin.

Zagu-La - A person suffering from any number of the symptoms of genital itching, pus filled urine, irritating groin rash, or genital sores is generally said to have Zagu-La. Also called Crotch Rot by the lowest classes, this extraordinarily common affliction is spread sexually, and, some scholars and physicians argue, is likely Zalanthas's most prevalent ailment. There are almost as many treatments to prevent or cure this self limited condition as there are sands in the Red Desert, particularly among those in the sex trade. The measures include various charmed body tattoos, wooden talismans, and in Allanak the practice of eating one rotten fruit a week.

These are the three sicknesses that can spread sexually.  Of them, only one is actually lethal, and even that is pretty rare.  There are treatments for most of them, of varying success of course, but wealthy enough people can muster the 'sids for a good herbalist or to get a magicker to help.

Rape is not legal in Allanak, and you're unlikely to get away from raping someone while a templar is watching unless the said templar really enjoyed the show.  Same as assault, and same as murder.  The Templarate is not likely to spend a month investigating the murder of one Joe Commoner by a Jake Commoner if there isn't anything in it that provides a good interest for them.  Pay a very large bribe and maybe they will.  Get a social ranking and maybe they will.  Just ask them...heh.

[Halaster]

Rape is illegal and in the eyes of the Law is viewed just like assault in Allanak.  The victim's social status will likely determine the punishment, just like if you attacked someone.

[spawnloser]

Okay, all those people that are saying, "But why would the Templarate care?"  Ask yourself this, "Why would the Templarate care that some random schmuck was killed?" immediately afterwards...and tell me if you don't answer the two questions the same.

[LoD]

I agree that any assault would likely be treated with the same energy (or lack thereof) as a reported mugging or beating, though it'd be pretty difficult to prove any of this in the Zalanthan world.

Unless there's a truth syrum out there, it's probably going to come down to two commoners pointing fingers.  There's no swab, there's no DNA matching.  I'd imagine the person bringing this to the templar's attention better have a stash of coin handy if they actually want the templar to side with them and their "story" that they were raped.

If there witnesses, sure, but this world doesn't feature the sophisticated technology driven environment in which current "police" can solve crimes.  They'd have to take someone and hope for, or beat out, a confession in order to make a judgement.  That's a lot of energy to expend unless the person asking is important or has some money to make them temporarily important enough to warrant the effort.

I also don't like the name of this thread.  The female players are always clamoring for equality in both deed and thought on this MUD and this only perpetuates current day and common social values that only Men would be the rapists.  Even if "The Man" refers to Tektolnes, I think the idea perpetuates stereotypes and only works to move people backwards in their thinking on these subjects within Zalanthas.

I'm surprised that it's written as such coming from a female handle.  I hope I don't ever see your name on any of those sexism threads.

-LoD

[Ritley]

I don't think rape has a place in Arm to be honest.

[Intrepid]

I somehow doubt that the listed diseases are exhaustive--in fact, they
seem to point only to the most common atm.

The treatments listed for Zagu-La are telling about the primitive level of
medicine in Zalanthas too--when there are that many treatments for the
ailment, most of them are likely to be incorrect.

Medicine should not be considered the science we consider it to be in our
world.  Yes, some ailments can be cured.  What do you do about the
remainder?  Even the best herbalist has been unable to invent the cureall
on Zalanthas--nor should they.

[LauraMars]

I'm surprised that it's written as such coming from a female handle. I hope I don't ever see your name on any of those sexism threads.

The Man refers to The Law, which is generally referred to as The Man regardless of gender (see also: "Master" Bards).  I don't know that quibbling over the implications of masculinity in thread titles is condusive to the discussion, but thanks for the warning.  Those sexism threads are safe from me.

To clarify, I wasn't interested in who molests who, just what the reaction of Important People would be to such an event and the nuances involved in such, in case I ever play in a position of militial authority.

I agree with the poster who said rape was like stealing something - stealing is illegal, fighting is illegal, rape is a mix of both so it doesn't surprise me that staff states it is as well.  The opinions and rules are appreciated, players and immortals all.

Any more thoughts about domestic abuse and "private" crime, or is that a topic for another thread?

[LoD]

The Man refers to The Law, which is generally referred to as The Man regardless of gender (see also: "Master" Bards).

The Man refers to The Law only in our present social setting because the Law, including those that legistlate, judge and enforce the law have been and presently are primarily men.  I wouldn't say that is necessarily the case in Armageddon.  The term "Master" is no doubt derived in part from the fact that most professions requiring apprenticeships were likely held by men who were, therefore, masters, but the word has integrated into our society and vocabulary to the degree that it doesn't hold nearly the same gender specific tone as "The Man" which seems more like slang.

I don't know that quibbling over the implications of masculinity in thread titles is condusive to the discussion, but thanks for the warning.

I'm not quibbling. I'm making a point.  It's conducive to the discussion because it can imply a double meaning and may directly imply that there is a correlation between Rape and "The Man" regardless of your intended use of the language.  There are issues relative to this conversation that involve gender roles and how rape would be perceived in an environment where no one sex had an apparent or accepted position above the other.

While I agree with some of the posters that I'd rather see certain aspects of real life not carried over to the game world, there are parts of this discussion which are important to understand as a concept.  How would female and male law enforcers handle the issue of sexual assault in a society that has no dominant gender.

If a man came forward and said he was raped by a woman, he'd likely have a lot of people laughing at him or discrediting his story.  How could a "strong" man ever be raped by a "weak" woman.  Our very conception of sexual assault is based on what we know in current day, and I believe in a world where both sexes were equally strong, equally empowered and equally judged, this crime would be seen with less of a stigma than it is in our present society.  

To clarify, I wasn't interested in who molests who, just what the reaction of Important People would be to such an event and the nuances involved in such, in case I ever play in a position of militial authority.

Fair enough, but your question raises other questions not only about rape, but about how law enforcement would handle any crime between the sexes.  There's a lot to consider there, because an environment without sexism is completely foreign to almost all of us, and there's a lot more to consider in your question than simply how Important People would react to the report of a rape.

-LoD

[Cuusardo]

This thread has made me that much more thankful for modern medicine and preventative measures.

[bloodfromstone]

I really don't see how anyone should be surprised that rape would be illegal. Punching someone is illegal. Rape goes far beyond that. Regardless of social stigmas and differences between Zalanthan and modern viewpoints, it is a much more violent and chaotic act than slugging an annoying beggar.

[Anonymous]

Obviously "rape" isn't coded (and god, let it never happen)

>rape figure
>You rape at the figure in a dark, hooded cloak and miss.
>You are now wanted.
>The figure in a dark, hooded cloak dodges your rape.
>You rape the figure in a dark, hooded cloak.
>The figure in a dark, hooded cloak crumples to the ground and curls up in a fetal position, cowering.

...


HAHAHAHAHAh ADD IT, NOW!!!!!

Semper pax,

Dirr

[Gorobei]

If you subdue someone, you automatically receive a crime flag.

[Bebop]

>rape figure
>You rape at the figure in a dark, hooded cloak and miss.
>You are now wanted.
>The figure in a dark, hooded cloak dodges your rape.
>You rape the figure in a dark, hooded cloak.
>The figure in a dark, hooded cloak crumples to the ground and curls up in a fetal position, cowering.

That was funny.  Anyway, I don't want to spawn another thread but how many people have been raped IC and IRL would you be pissed or not wanting to act it out.  Rape seems like something very likey to happen IC gruff raider that's been out in the sands sees a salt grebber ... better than the infamous kank sex I hear of.  If I should start a new thread, let me know.

[bloodfromstone]

That was funny. Anyway, I don't want to spawn another thread but how many people have been raped IC and IRL would you be pissed or not wanting to act it out. Rape seems like something very likey to happen IC gruff raider that's been out in the sands sees a salt grebber ... better than the infamous kank sex I hear of. If I should start a new thread, let me know.

I'm not exactly sure what is being asked here, but if you're talking about the reality of rape in the world vs. the players' feelings, then there are some pretty clean cut rules about it. Basically, if the victim doesn't want it to happen, it doesn't. Alternately, if you're asking how many people would consent to it, that I can't answer for anything other than myself. I, myself, would consent to fading the scene and playing the aftermath. That said, I fully respect those who would choose to not consent at all.

[Larrath]

That was funny.  Anyway, I don't want to spawn another thread but how many people have been raped IC and IRL would you be pissed or not wanting to act it out.  Rape seems like something very likey to happen IC gruff raider that's been out in the sands sees a salt grebber ... better than the infamous kank sex I hear of.

The revised Consent rule says this:
Before an act indicative of rape (excluding the Subdue command, but not its emote), the instigator must ask, specifically, for consent to engage in a rape scene.
The victim can say one of three things:
1) I consent.
2) I do not consent, please fade to black.
3) I do not consent, and do not allow my character to be raped.

If the they choose option 3, their character will not be raped, not in a fade and not in full.  Simply do something else your PC might do (mug, murder, release, whatever), without mentioning rape.  So don't tell them that they're too ugly to rape anyway and mug them, simply play it off as being a mugging from the start.
In your Thinks, you can talk about her being too ugly to rape, or however else you want to justify it.

Because of this rule, we don't need any IC means to 'police' rape, and it should be treated with natural Zalanthan gritty evil nastiness, without anything to do with OOC views.

[Raesanos]

If the they choose option 3, their character will not be raped, not in a fade and not in full

Just want to repeat that this IS official staff policy. The consent rule does not just mean you simply have to fade to black in the case of rape. The consent rule means the rape will not happen if it is not consented to, off the stage or otherwise. The helpfile on consent outlines this.

[Bebop]

Okay so the rape will not place at all if someone says no, I didn't know that, that is good to know.  It's a touchy subject I'm sure.  Thanks.

[naatok]

In a society which lacks religious conviction for the most part, or where religious conviction is limited to an all powerful Highlord or Sun King, I would tend to agree that 'rape' would be viewed by law enforcement and the general populace as another form of assault and dealt with in the same manner.

It is my opinion, however, that rape would be more rare in Zalanthas than it is here on Earth.

My reasons for this view are:
1.  There is no difference between the bodily strength and endurance of women vs men in Zalanthas.  On Earth, men have the advantage of upper body strength and balance.  Since in most cases it is upper body strength that gives advantage in physical assault (unless you want to kick-box someone into submission, or can manage a quick leg lock), most earthly cases of sexual assault involve men assaulting women or other men.
Notice to those who like to argue:  I said MOST.  Not all.
2.  The sexual mores of Zalanthan societies are more relaxed than in many societies on earth.  In societies with relaxed sexual mores, incidents of rape are less frequent than in repressed societies.  In some societies where sexuality is very open, rape is virtually unheard of.  Yes, yes, I know rape isn't a crime of sexual desire.  But human motivation for rape IS driven by socio-sexual self image.  Meaning, the perpetrator more often than not feels a sense of inferiority as regards the opposite sex.  These feelings motivate anger, hatred and desire to humiliate that which s/he feels the inferiority towards.
It may not necessarily be a crime of sexual desire, but it IS a crime of passion.  And let's not be in denial of the fact that rape IS sexually stimulating for the perpetrator.  I won't comment on whether or not it is possibly sexually stimulating for the victim.

One weakness of my second argument for Zalanthas is the establishment of 'class' systems for more organized societies (mostly the big cities).  It seems likely to me that bottom members of the commoner class, may feel resentment for not being included, socially or sexually in the higher commoner circles.  This may, in some cases, develop anger in individuals to the point where they would be motivated to commit rape on those who shun them.  Half-elf offspring resulting from rape are but one indication that this is more than a theory for the game-world.

This isn't to say that ALL half-elves have their conceptual origins in rape.  I'm sure there are some, freakish, twisted and sexually perverted humans who do view elves in a sexually receptive manner.  And I'm sure there are some deluded, lonely and sexually perverted elves who view humans as possible sexual partners.  As in the real world with strange bedfellows, ever the twain shall meet.  And I'm not even going to MENTION the extremely freaky, frisky people who are turned on by short, bald dwarves!
:twisted:

[Ritley]

I'm surprised that it's written as such coming from a female handle. I hope I don't ever see your name on any of those sexism threads.

The Man refers to The Law, which is generally referred to as The Man regardless of gender (see also: "Master" Bards).  I don't know that quibbling over the implications of masculinity in thread titles is condusive to the discussion, but thanks for the warning.  Those sexism threads are safe from me.

To clarify, I wasn't interested in who molests who, just what the reaction of Important People would be to such an event and the nuances involved in such, in case I ever play in a position of militial authority.

I agree with the poster who said rape was like stealing something - stealing is illegal, fighting is illegal, rape is a mix of both so it doesn't surprise me that staff states it is as well.  The opinions and rules are appreciated, players and immortals all.

Any more thoughts about domestic abuse and "private" crime, or is that a topic for another thread?

Nope, your both wrong. I'm the Man.

[Raesanos]

I like naatok's thoughts on this. If anyone is looking for an official stance on this, I will go ahead and say that for a variety of factors, rape is considered quite the Bad Thing socially in Zalanthas, at least as a form of assault.

Also, if anyone is looking for an official stance on who is the man, I'm pretty sure its either myself or Garrison Keiler.

[Anonymous]

Not to piss anyone off, but I fail to see how or why people's out of character views on something like rape should influence another's character's actions.  So my angry sex-starved raider captures a nice clean tuluki noble and wants have his way with her and then turn her over to his posse before trying to obtain a ransom... Why should the player saying "No, I don't like that." matter?

I can see keeping the emotes to PG-13, or fading to black if the person doesn't want to play along, but to simply eliminate the possibilty of the experience from happening to a character creates a very unrealistic scenerio.  If it is simply because rape victims may play the game, I have to say that victims of theft, mugging, torture, or attempted murder may also play and not wish to take part in reliving their particular misfortunes.  To ease the minds of softer armageddon players (in that harsh harsh world), or those suffering from post traumatic stress, we require consent for graphic depictions of violence, a fine compromise.

When we start allowing people to say "No, my character was not raped." we begin to allow the OOC to effect the actual course of plot , and I don't like it.  At where does this line get drawn.  I see no provision allowing me to say "No, my character was not tortured." and yet I'm certain that someone who way would not want to play along.  Torture scenes may involve a sexual element, at what point does the 'rape' clause come into effect?  For the sake of argument, let's say I wanted to sever a male noble's genitalia, shove it up his rectum, and send him back to his family... Acceptable?  No?  What about any form of castration?  Or does the involuntary removal of one's genitalia equal rape?  And what about slaves and concubines?  Surely a master should be able to do with his or her property as they wish? Sex is often used as a tool to show power over others, sad as it is, why should this been any different in the harsh world of Zalanthas?

In short, requiring consent for graphic depictions makes sense.  Requiring consent to allow your character to act as (s)he would, does not.

Fin.

[Larrath]

This discussion was had long ago.

In the end, it came down to this (freely paraphrasing Sanvean from memory):
The comfort of few players is valued higher than the perfection of the game as far as rape goes.  You can fade on the act of rape, but you can't rape the afteraffects it will have on the victim.

This is a privately owned game, and this is (essentially) what the management said.  So live with it - I'm not a great fan of this policy either, but this is how it goes.

[flurry]

For what it's worth, I think Larrath is talking about this thread.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to try to replace some of that imagery above with visions of sugar plums.

[Cowboy]

I can't think of better time, than Christmas Eve, to put this thread to bed.
Enough of the " I must rape to be a complete RP'er" line of thought.

[Larrath]

Enough of the " I must rape to be a complete RP'er" line of thought.

I don't like flaming.  I try to avoid flaming.
Please reconsider your words, rethink Zalanthas and deep roleplay in general, and be more respectful to us fellow players.

I can have a rapist character, a homosexual character, a completely depraved character, control freaks, fearless dickheads without a drop of common sense in their heads, and obsessive people without this saying a single thing about me.  Looking down at people based on what they choose to roleplay (in an at least mostly-complete fashion) is, to me, ignorant and very upsetting.

Any questions in this thread have been answered.

[LauraMars]

Any questions in this thread have been answered.

Yes.  Sorry for bothering everyone, and happy holidays.

[bloodfromstone]

Yes. Sorry for bothering everyone, and happy holidays.

You didn't bother anyone, LM. I think it was a valid question that got some good, accurate responses. We can't help that threads degrade at times, despite best intentions.

Happy Holidays to everyone, too. I hope you guys had as good of a Christmas morning as me.

[Barzalene]

I also don't like the name of this thread.  The female players are always clamoring for equality in both deed and thought on this MUD and this only perpetuates current day and common social values that only Men would be the rapists.  Even if "The Man" refers to Tektolnes, I think the idea perpetuates stereotypes and only works to move people backwards in their thinking on these subjects within Zalanthas.

I'm surprised that it's written as such coming from a female handle.  I hope I don't ever see your name on any of those sexism threads.

-LoD

Also, there seems to be a presumption that women would be more likely targets of sexual assault. Not necessarily true in a world where women are no more defenseless than men.

[Qetesh]

Here are my two sid on this topic. I basically agree that rape should be treated like every other bad crime. Your punishment will basically depend on who you are, if the Templar likes you/you are important enough to live, you pay them enough to get out of being killed and how important the victim of the rape is. However, I don't feel that it should be treated more harshly than murder and most likely, as in real life, it should be treated less harshly.

My reasoning for this is that rape is basically a crime that involves control and dominance and has little to do with sexual attraction or desire, and is more-so a play for power over a weaker individual. In a society where men and women are equal, men raping men might be just as common as men raping women. Considering that Zalanthas has no stigma's against women, gays, man-kank love.. and that the bulk of our player base is male. It really makes me stop and think about the mindset of a rapist and what the act really involves.  It is my personal opinion that most rapists would go for whatever they find the weakest.  

And of course, as Rae said, the consent rule states pretty clearly now, that you never, never have to consent to your PC being raped.

As for the topic header, I never think "The Man" is even a real person, but some computer screen looking down on me like Max Headroom. Sort of this asexual, policing force watching me from it's matrix like viewing screen in a pretty white room somewhere.

But for clarification purposes, I am pretty sure "The Man" in this scenario refers to the policing force in either city state. Lets not get all "you've hurt my sexual identity" on the topic, that's not what it's about and it shouldn't be derailed that way. The orginal poster makes it pretty clear that the topic is about how the Templaret would/should deal with a rape situation.

It's a valid question, and there have been some really good responses in this thread, lets try to cool the flaming and one line snickers. It would be appreciated if some of that was cleaned up so that we don't have to go in and start editing out stuff.

[Tyriel]

Rape is not a game.

[Hymwen]

I would assume that rape carries the same consequences as regular physical assault in Allanak. That is, if you are caught or reported, it will be dealt with as if the offender beat up the victim. If he/she/it is a commoner, I would guess that means very little investigation.

[Hymwen]

Also, there seems to be a presumption that women would be more likely targets of sexual assault. Not necessarily true in a world where women are no more defenseless than men.

Well, I'm guessing that while homosexuality is common and accepted in Zalanthas, the majority of people are still heterosexual. Since it's obviously impossible, or at least very hard and unlikely, for a woman to rape someone (at least if the victim is a man), the statistics would say that women are more often victims than men, not necessarily because men are more likely to want  to rape someone, but because they are.. uh, equipped to do it. And since the majority of people are heterosexual (or so I assume) then women would be the victims more often.

That's what I think.

[spawnloser]

It is NOT impossible for a woman to rape a man...just interesting.

[Jherlen]

Women can also rape women, and men can also rape men. Or kanks.

[bloodfromstone]

Kanks can't say no.

[Hymwen]

It is NOT impossible for a woman to rape a man...just interesting.

I doubt a man who is in the process of being raped is physically capable of intercourse.

[Tamarin]

Sodomy.

[Angela Christine]

Two words:  foreign object.


Remember, sexual assault isn't entirely about sex.  It is also about power and even violence, it is about making the other guy feel helpless and afraid.  A female rapist may want to be the penetrator, not the penetrated.



However, even if she is looking for traditional sexual intercourse, that isn't out of the question.  The body responds to certain physical stimuli in specific ways, regardless of what the mind is thinking.  Mating behavior is handled by a fairly primitive part of the brain, and it doesn't always consult the frontal cortex for an opinion.  During sexual assault a woman may experience bits of her anatomy swelling and lubricating, even physical sensations of pleasure, despite the fact that she really isn't having a good time at all -- and it is still rape.  With many men you could jolly his little soldier into standing to attention even if he really, really didn't want to have sex with you.

Another option involves vacuum pumps and cock rings to create and maintain an unwilling erection, but I don't think Zalanthas has that technology.


Angela Christine

[Marshmellow]

Yeah, what AC said.  Also, always remember one word: Oral.

[Anael]

Aand this is just to add to what AC said.

In Norway, I can think of at least one case of a woman convicted for raping a man in last year.

[Akaramu]

Another option involves vacuum pumps and cock rings to create and maintain an unwilling erection, but I don't think Zalanthas has that technology.

Wouldnt it be much easier and effective to just use a dildo?

[Anael]

Sexual assault is not as much about sexual pleasure itself. The feelings that drive the rapist involve dominating, humiliating and terrifying the victim.

[Angela Christine]

Another option involves vacuum pumps and cock rings to create and maintain an unwilling erection, but I don't think Zalanthas has that technology.

Wouldnt it be much easier and effective to just use a dildo?

Like, to use on herself?  That wouldn't give her much sense of power over another person.  Some people get off on hurting others.

It it were just about sex, it would be less trouble to hire a cheap prostitute than to rape someone.


Angela Christine

[EvilRoeSlade]

I doubt a man who is in the process of being raped is physically capable of intercourse.

You are very ignorant then.

[flurry]

And with that, the newbie armistice came to an end.   Well, one whole day wasn't bad.



On topic, I have to say that I agree that rape/assault would be balanced in terms of gender for both victim and assailant.  It's about dominance and power, not sex, and besides there are a lot of different ways it can happen.

[Boggis]

And with that, the newbie armistice came to an end.   Well, one whole day wasn't bad.

From a "Helper" too. Wonderful.

[Hymwen]

You are very ignorant then.

You are very impolite then. I know which one I prefer.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Let's try to be understanding.  When you start and enter these discussions you have to realize that some people have some very personal feelings associated with them.

If you understood the experiences I've suffered from you wouldn't really be surprised if I become agitated when others express their ignorance, which in this case is harmful ignorance.

[joyofdiscord]

Another option involves vacuum pumps and cock rings to create and maintain an unwilling erection, but I don't think Zalanthas has that technology.

Wouldnt it be much easier and effective to just use a dildo?

Like, to use on herself?  That wouldn't give her much sense of power over another person.  Some people get off on hurting others.

Noooo. She use dildo on him, in the butt, you know.

[HunterKiller]

Two words:  foreign object.
Another option involves vacuum pumps and cock rings to create and maintain an unwilling erection, but I don't think Zalanthas has that technology.
Angela Christine

To illustrate AC's point, I'm both uncomfortable and aroused at the same time, responding to what she wrote.   :shock:

Sorry, humor is my defense mechanism.  I use it as a crutch so I don't have to challenge myself to think on this deep a level.

- HK

[Angela Christine]

Another option involves vacuum pumps and cock rings to create and maintain an unwilling erection, but I don't think Zalanthas has that technology.

Wouldnt it be much easier and effective to just use a dildo?

Like, to use on herself?  That wouldn't give her much sense of power over another person.  Some people get off on hurting others.

Noooo. She use dildo on him, in the butt, you know.

That would work for him, but doesn't do much to physically stimulate her.  Basically she is just imitating a male-on-male rape.

Imposing an unnatural erection allows her to mount him and have nearly normal sex as part of the rape, except that she is the fucker rather than the fuckee.  It also allows her to see his face, see his emotions, something that is difficult to do from behind.  

* * *


I think it is a good thing that the game discourages sexual assault from being roleplayed.  I think that this thread shows that many people carry attitudes and expectations that simply wouldn't apply at all to Zalanthas, IE. women aren't rapists, women can't rape men, men don't get raped outside of prison (or other areas where women are unavailable).  These attitudes would either encourage unrealistic portrayals of Zalanthan rape, or people would freak out when a realistic but unexpected rape affected their characters.

My opinion of Zalanthan rape trends:

Most likely victims:  The Weak
Since women are as strong, agile and as likely to have combat training as the men, in Zalanthas women are not automatically going to be considered prey.  Instead you have:

The young:  Not necessarily children, I am going to go out on a limb and assume that pedophilia is something that still only affects a portion of the population, people may not be horrified by pedophilia but some adults simply won't be attracted to undeveloped bodies.  But adolescents have most of the equipment looking right, but still don't have the strength or skills they will have when they get older.  So I'd say 12-16 year olds are at particular risk.

The old:  The over 50 crowd still have all the right bits, even if it is getting a little saggy.  You can probably tell by looking which ones of them are likely to have had significant combat training, and which ones were just bakers or tailors, and avoid the ones who might still be dangerous despite their lower strength, lower agility, and failing eyesight.

The disabled:  No legs?  Yay!  That means you can't run away.

The poor:  Underfed people are often weak.  The are also unlikely to be able to buy justice from the government after the fact.

The racially disadvantaged:  Naturally this depends on the area where you are hunting.  An elf in a dominantly human neighbourhood, a human in a dominantly elf neighbourhood, an obvious half-elf in nearly any neighbourhood, etc.  Someone who doesn't belong, and who the locals are unlikely to try to help if they notice that something is going on.

Anyone alone in the wrong place at the wrong time:  If you are alone, then you are more easily subdued than a person in a group.  

Most likely rapists:  The weak.  The disadvantaged.  The angry.

Elves rape humans, not because they are attracted to humans but because they are oppressed by humans and want to get their own back.  It is an expression of hate and anger.

Humans rape elves, not because they are attracted to elves but because elves are scum who take the jobs, apartments and property that should rightfully belong to humans.  What have elves ever built?  Nothing.  But here they are in our city, living off us.  Parasites.  Filth.  It is an expression of hate and anger.


Least likely rapists:  

Anyone alone.  Since you can't always tell just by looking who is rightful prey and who is a ninja in a beggar costume, one-on-one rapes are probably less common than gang rapes.  Rape gangs may wander the bad parts of town looking for prey.  

The rich and powerful.  Ok, at first this might seem counter-intuitive, but stay with me.  Most of the time when a noble or wealthy person has non-consensual sex it won't be considered rape.  Having sex with a slave you own = not rape, because slaves are property not people.  If a noble or Templar tells you that she wants to have sex with you, you will probably agree even if you don't really want to, because of the implied threat of unpleasantness.  In America this might be considered coercion and still rape, but in Zalanthas probably only forcible rape is considered rape.  You agree to have sex with the noble because you don't want to offend her.  A rich person could commit forcible rape in an alley somewhere, but why would they?  People in alleys are dirty, smelly and diseased.  If you see something in the Gaj that you want, take it somewhere and have it clean up a bit before you touch it.

Likewise you might agree to have sex with your sergeant, boss, superior, etc., to keep him happy and not offend him.  In America this would be sexual harassment and coercion, but in Zalanthas it is probably just considered one of the perks of rank unless your organization specifically forbids it.

Least likely victims:

The rich and powerful.  These guys are usually healthy, often have some combat training, and usually have bodyguards or at least combat trained employees that will come to their aid.  The poor and disadvantaged may want to stick it to them, but there just aren't many opportunities to do so.  And the law or private security forces are likely to make things uncomfortable for the attacker after the fact.

Half-giants.  It is going to be a lot of work and not much fun for anyone but another half-giant to try to rape a half-giant.

Halflings.  Quite a squeeze, and OH GOD WHY WON"T IT STOP BITING!?!  You'll have to knock it unconscious to even try, and where's the fun in that?

Mantis.  Even worse than halflings, this thing will try to bite you with bits you weren't even sure were teeth.  Plus, exactly what part of it are you supposed to be raping?  You're not even sure if all mantises have sex organs, or breeders are a specialized caste.  Not to mention that whole hive-mind thing, that is likely to bring half the clutch down on you before you finish.   :shock:  Oh, and they are also ugly.  

I probably spend too much time thinking about this sort of thing.


Angela Christine

[Maybe42or54]

Gith To.. gith to. They are always alone in the desert.

[Ayashah]

*giggles*

I love ya, AC!  I hadnt read too much of this post but saw you had posted and knew that was worth a read.