Sexual Assault and The Man

[spawnloser]

Okay, all those people that are saying, "But why would the Templarate care?"  Ask yourself this, "Why would the Templarate care that some random schmuck was killed?" immediately afterwards...and tell me if you don't answer the two questions the same.

[LoD]

I agree that any assault would likely be treated with the same energy (or lack thereof) as a reported mugging or beating, though it'd be pretty difficult to prove any of this in the Zalanthan world.

Unless there's a truth syrum out there, it's probably going to come down to two commoners pointing fingers.  There's no swab, there's no DNA matching.  I'd imagine the person bringing this to the templar's attention better have a stash of coin handy if they actually want the templar to side with them and their "story" that they were raped.

If there witnesses, sure, but this world doesn't feature the sophisticated technology driven environment in which current "police" can solve crimes.  They'd have to take someone and hope for, or beat out, a confession in order to make a judgement.  That's a lot of energy to expend unless the person asking is important or has some money to make them temporarily important enough to warrant the effort.

I also don't like the name of this thread.  The female players are always clamoring for equality in both deed and thought on this MUD and this only perpetuates current day and common social values that only Men would be the rapists.  Even if "The Man" refers to Tektolnes, I think the idea perpetuates stereotypes and only works to move people backwards in their thinking on these subjects within Zalanthas.

I'm surprised that it's written as such coming from a female handle.  I hope I don't ever see your name on any of those sexism threads.

-LoD

[Ritley]

I don't think rape has a place in Arm to be honest.

[Intrepid]

I somehow doubt that the listed diseases are exhaustive--in fact, they
seem to point only to the most common atm.

The treatments listed for Zagu-La are telling about the primitive level of
medicine in Zalanthas too--when there are that many treatments for the
ailment, most of them are likely to be incorrect.

Medicine should not be considered the science we consider it to be in our
world.  Yes, some ailments can be cured.  What do you do about the
remainder?  Even the best herbalist has been unable to invent the cureall
on Zalanthas--nor should they.

[LauraMars]

I'm surprised that it's written as such coming from a female handle. I hope I don't ever see your name on any of those sexism threads.

The Man refers to The Law, which is generally referred to as The Man regardless of gender (see also: "Master" Bards).  I don't know that quibbling over the implications of masculinity in thread titles is condusive to the discussion, but thanks for the warning.  Those sexism threads are safe from me.

To clarify, I wasn't interested in who molests who, just what the reaction of Important People would be to such an event and the nuances involved in such, in case I ever play in a position of militial authority.

I agree with the poster who said rape was like stealing something - stealing is illegal, fighting is illegal, rape is a mix of both so it doesn't surprise me that staff states it is as well.  The opinions and rules are appreciated, players and immortals all.

Any more thoughts about domestic abuse and "private" crime, or is that a topic for another thread?

[LoD]

The Man refers to The Law, which is generally referred to as The Man regardless of gender (see also: "Master" Bards).

The Man refers to The Law only in our present social setting because the Law, including those that legistlate, judge and enforce the law have been and presently are primarily men.  I wouldn't say that is necessarily the case in Armageddon.  The term "Master" is no doubt derived in part from the fact that most professions requiring apprenticeships were likely held by men who were, therefore, masters, but the word has integrated into our society and vocabulary to the degree that it doesn't hold nearly the same gender specific tone as "The Man" which seems more like slang.

I don't know that quibbling over the implications of masculinity in thread titles is condusive to the discussion, but thanks for the warning.

I'm not quibbling. I'm making a point.  It's conducive to the discussion because it can imply a double meaning and may directly imply that there is a correlation between Rape and "The Man" regardless of your intended use of the language.  There are issues relative to this conversation that involve gender roles and how rape would be perceived in an environment where no one sex had an apparent or accepted position above the other.

While I agree with some of the posters that I'd rather see certain aspects of real life not carried over to the game world, there are parts of this discussion which are important to understand as a concept.  How would female and male law enforcers handle the issue of sexual assault in a society that has no dominant gender.

If a man came forward and said he was raped by a woman, he'd likely have a lot of people laughing at him or discrediting his story.  How could a "strong" man ever be raped by a "weak" woman.  Our very conception of sexual assault is based on what we know in current day, and I believe in a world where both sexes were equally strong, equally empowered and equally judged, this crime would be seen with less of a stigma than it is in our present society.  

To clarify, I wasn't interested in who molests who, just what the reaction of Important People would be to such an event and the nuances involved in such, in case I ever play in a position of militial authority.

Fair enough, but your question raises other questions not only about rape, but about how law enforcement would handle any crime between the sexes.  There's a lot to consider there, because an environment without sexism is completely foreign to almost all of us, and there's a lot more to consider in your question than simply how Important People would react to the report of a rape.

-LoD

[Cuusardo]

This thread has made me that much more thankful for modern medicine and preventative measures.

[bloodfromstone]

I really don't see how anyone should be surprised that rape would be illegal. Punching someone is illegal. Rape goes far beyond that. Regardless of social stigmas and differences between Zalanthan and modern viewpoints, it is a much more violent and chaotic act than slugging an annoying beggar.

[Anonymous]

Obviously "rape" isn't coded (and god, let it never happen)

>rape figure
>You rape at the figure in a dark, hooded cloak and miss.
>You are now wanted.
>The figure in a dark, hooded cloak dodges your rape.
>You rape the figure in a dark, hooded cloak.
>The figure in a dark, hooded cloak crumples to the ground and curls up in a fetal position, cowering.

...


HAHAHAHAHAh ADD IT, NOW!!!!!

Semper pax,

Dirr

[Gorobei]

If you subdue someone, you automatically receive a crime flag.

[Bebop]

>rape figure
>You rape at the figure in a dark, hooded cloak and miss.
>You are now wanted.
>The figure in a dark, hooded cloak dodges your rape.
>You rape the figure in a dark, hooded cloak.
>The figure in a dark, hooded cloak crumples to the ground and curls up in a fetal position, cowering.

That was funny.  Anyway, I don't want to spawn another thread but how many people have been raped IC and IRL would you be pissed or not wanting to act it out.  Rape seems like something very likey to happen IC gruff raider that's been out in the sands sees a salt grebber ... better than the infamous kank sex I hear of.  If I should start a new thread, let me know.

[bloodfromstone]

That was funny. Anyway, I don't want to spawn another thread but how many people have been raped IC and IRL would you be pissed or not wanting to act it out. Rape seems like something very likey to happen IC gruff raider that's been out in the sands sees a salt grebber ... better than the infamous kank sex I hear of. If I should start a new thread, let me know.

I'm not exactly sure what is being asked here, but if you're talking about the reality of rape in the world vs. the players' feelings, then there are some pretty clean cut rules about it. Basically, if the victim doesn't want it to happen, it doesn't. Alternately, if you're asking how many people would consent to it, that I can't answer for anything other than myself. I, myself, would consent to fading the scene and playing the aftermath. That said, I fully respect those who would choose to not consent at all.

[Larrath]

That was funny.  Anyway, I don't want to spawn another thread but how many people have been raped IC and IRL would you be pissed or not wanting to act it out.  Rape seems like something very likey to happen IC gruff raider that's been out in the sands sees a salt grebber ... better than the infamous kank sex I hear of.

The revised Consent rule says this:
Before an act indicative of rape (excluding the Subdue command, but not its emote), the instigator must ask, specifically, for consent to engage in a rape scene.
The victim can say one of three things:
1) I consent.
2) I do not consent, please fade to black.
3) I do not consent, and do not allow my character to be raped.

If the they choose option 3, their character will not be raped, not in a fade and not in full.  Simply do something else your PC might do (mug, murder, release, whatever), without mentioning rape.  So don't tell them that they're too ugly to rape anyway and mug them, simply play it off as being a mugging from the start.
In your Thinks, you can talk about her being too ugly to rape, or however else you want to justify it.

Because of this rule, we don't need any IC means to 'police' rape, and it should be treated with natural Zalanthan gritty evil nastiness, without anything to do with OOC views.

[Raesanos]

If the they choose option 3, their character will not be raped, not in a fade and not in full

Just want to repeat that this IS official staff policy. The consent rule does not just mean you simply have to fade to black in the case of rape. The consent rule means the rape will not happen if it is not consented to, off the stage or otherwise. The helpfile on consent outlines this.

[Bebop]

Okay so the rape will not place at all if someone says no, I didn't know that, that is good to know.  It's a touchy subject I'm sure.  Thanks.

[naatok]

In a society which lacks religious conviction for the most part, or where religious conviction is limited to an all powerful Highlord or Sun King, I would tend to agree that 'rape' would be viewed by law enforcement and the general populace as another form of assault and dealt with in the same manner.

It is my opinion, however, that rape would be more rare in Zalanthas than it is here on Earth.

My reasons for this view are:
1.  There is no difference between the bodily strength and endurance of women vs men in Zalanthas.  On Earth, men have the advantage of upper body strength and balance.  Since in most cases it is upper body strength that gives advantage in physical assault (unless you want to kick-box someone into submission, or can manage a quick leg lock), most earthly cases of sexual assault involve men assaulting women or other men.
Notice to those who like to argue:  I said MOST.  Not all.
2.  The sexual mores of Zalanthan societies are more relaxed than in many societies on earth.  In societies with relaxed sexual mores, incidents of rape are less frequent than in repressed societies.  In some societies where sexuality is very open, rape is virtually unheard of.  Yes, yes, I know rape isn't a crime of sexual desire.  But human motivation for rape IS driven by socio-sexual self image.  Meaning, the perpetrator more often than not feels a sense of inferiority as regards the opposite sex.  These feelings motivate anger, hatred and desire to humiliate that which s/he feels the inferiority towards.
It may not necessarily be a crime of sexual desire, but it IS a crime of passion.  And let's not be in denial of the fact that rape IS sexually stimulating for the perpetrator.  I won't comment on whether or not it is possibly sexually stimulating for the victim.

One weakness of my second argument for Zalanthas is the establishment of 'class' systems for more organized societies (mostly the big cities).  It seems likely to me that bottom members of the commoner class, may feel resentment for not being included, socially or sexually in the higher commoner circles.  This may, in some cases, develop anger in individuals to the point where they would be motivated to commit rape on those who shun them.  Half-elf offspring resulting from rape are but one indication that this is more than a theory for the game-world.

This isn't to say that ALL half-elves have their conceptual origins in rape.  I'm sure there are some, freakish, twisted and sexually perverted humans who do view elves in a sexually receptive manner.  And I'm sure there are some deluded, lonely and sexually perverted elves who view humans as possible sexual partners.  As in the real world with strange bedfellows, ever the twain shall meet.  And I'm not even going to MENTION the extremely freaky, frisky people who are turned on by short, bald dwarves!
:twisted:

[Ritley]

I'm surprised that it's written as such coming from a female handle. I hope I don't ever see your name on any of those sexism threads.

The Man refers to The Law, which is generally referred to as The Man regardless of gender (see also: "Master" Bards).  I don't know that quibbling over the implications of masculinity in thread titles is condusive to the discussion, but thanks for the warning.  Those sexism threads are safe from me.

To clarify, I wasn't interested in who molests who, just what the reaction of Important People would be to such an event and the nuances involved in such, in case I ever play in a position of militial authority.

I agree with the poster who said rape was like stealing something - stealing is illegal, fighting is illegal, rape is a mix of both so it doesn't surprise me that staff states it is as well.  The opinions and rules are appreciated, players and immortals all.

Any more thoughts about domestic abuse and "private" crime, or is that a topic for another thread?

Nope, your both wrong. I'm the Man.

[Raesanos]

I like naatok's thoughts on this. If anyone is looking for an official stance on this, I will go ahead and say that for a variety of factors, rape is considered quite the Bad Thing socially in Zalanthas, at least as a form of assault.

Also, if anyone is looking for an official stance on who is the man, I'm pretty sure its either myself or Garrison Keiler.

[Anonymous]

Not to piss anyone off, but I fail to see how or why people's out of character views on something like rape should influence another's character's actions.  So my angry sex-starved raider captures a nice clean tuluki noble and wants have his way with her and then turn her over to his posse before trying to obtain a ransom... Why should the player saying "No, I don't like that." matter?

I can see keeping the emotes to PG-13, or fading to black if the person doesn't want to play along, but to simply eliminate the possibilty of the experience from happening to a character creates a very unrealistic scenerio.  If it is simply because rape victims may play the game, I have to say that victims of theft, mugging, torture, or attempted murder may also play and not wish to take part in reliving their particular misfortunes.  To ease the minds of softer armageddon players (in that harsh harsh world), or those suffering from post traumatic stress, we require consent for graphic depictions of violence, a fine compromise.

When we start allowing people to say "No, my character was not raped." we begin to allow the OOC to effect the actual course of plot , and I don't like it.  At where does this line get drawn.  I see no provision allowing me to say "No, my character was not tortured." and yet I'm certain that someone who way would not want to play along.  Torture scenes may involve a sexual element, at what point does the 'rape' clause come into effect?  For the sake of argument, let's say I wanted to sever a male noble's genitalia, shove it up his rectum, and send him back to his family... Acceptable?  No?  What about any form of castration?  Or does the involuntary removal of one's genitalia equal rape?  And what about slaves and concubines?  Surely a master should be able to do with his or her property as they wish? Sex is often used as a tool to show power over others, sad as it is, why should this been any different in the harsh world of Zalanthas?

In short, requiring consent for graphic depictions makes sense.  Requiring consent to allow your character to act as (s)he would, does not.

Fin.

[Larrath]

This discussion was had long ago.

In the end, it came down to this (freely paraphrasing Sanvean from memory):
The comfort of few players is valued higher than the perfection of the game as far as rape goes.  You can fade on the act of rape, but you can't rape the afteraffects it will have on the victim.

This is a privately owned game, and this is (essentially) what the management said.  So live with it - I'm not a great fan of this policy either, but this is how it goes.

[flurry]

For what it's worth, I think Larrath is talking about this thread.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to try to replace some of that imagery above with visions of sugar plums.

[Cowboy]

I can't think of better time, than Christmas Eve, to put this thread to bed.
Enough of the " I must rape to be a complete RP'er" line of thought.

[Larrath]

Enough of the " I must rape to be a complete RP'er" line of thought.

I don't like flaming.  I try to avoid flaming.
Please reconsider your words, rethink Zalanthas and deep roleplay in general, and be more respectful to us fellow players.

I can have a rapist character, a homosexual character, a completely depraved character, control freaks, fearless dickheads without a drop of common sense in their heads, and obsessive people without this saying a single thing about me.  Looking down at people based on what they choose to roleplay (in an at least mostly-complete fashion) is, to me, ignorant and very upsetting.

Any questions in this thread have been answered.

[LauraMars]

Any questions in this thread have been answered.

Yes.  Sorry for bothering everyone, and happy holidays.

[bloodfromstone]

Yes. Sorry for bothering everyone, and happy holidays.

You didn't bother anyone, LM. I think it was a valid question that got some good, accurate responses. We can't help that threads degrade at times, despite best intentions.

Happy Holidays to everyone, too. I hope you guys had as good of a Christmas morning as me.