Disarm skill

[Anonymous]

i would also be hesitant to call myself an "amazing" martial artist, but three separate people on 3 separate occasions have called me that very word, amazing.  So these words are emerging from the horse's mouth.

I have a silver-9th sash (green sequin) in jiu jitsu, and my martial artist instructor and I have practised skills like this on a regular basis.  It takes a lot of practise, and when you start to use real blades -- we use rusty ones at first to prevent the cuts -- iti can become extremely dangerous.  The point is that it's hard to do, and here's why

my sensei used to scream at me when he was doing it as well, making it difficult to concentrate.  Imagine you are on zalanthas ... dust is flying into your hair, your cloak is coming up over your face, and you're sliding down a 10 ft dune, and your kank is out of stamina.  These are a lot of distractions for your everyday warrior.

if you put your arm out it will get slapped.  and on zalanthas, that slap is going to come from a claw or an axe.  you don't want to disarm it.

-Chris

[Ritley]

Kung-Fu Explanation as to how rediculously difficult a snatch would be for an alert attacker who is moderatly skilled.

This is brief.. and hard to explain unless I showed someone BUT!

1. I dodge to the right side of a thrust attack, ie, a dagger or sword. So the weapon is now to my left side, preferably low chest to abdomen height.
2. My left elbow goes down towards their weapon-arm elbow in a heavy chopping motion.
3. My other elbow slams into their chest in what is called a Lan-sao.

This all leaves their weapon arm either broken from number 2, or severly disabled, while #3 knocks them back and attempts to wind them, allowing me sufficient time to finish the disarm.

NOW! If i were to execute that properly, I would probably only succeed in disarming them, and continuing to pummel them.

The only way I would be able to "Snatch" would be to, forget #3 and try to disable the arm with one motion, snatching with the other, which would require REDICULOUSLY fast movements, which would probably result in the attacker flicking their wrist and slicing my hand off.


I actually went and tried this with my sifu for you guys. That's the best I can explain as to why it wouldn't really work.

Their is different ways you know. We don't use weapons in Tae Kwondo, but we are taught to deal with them. We use a inward or outward crescent kick, and if done at the right angle sends a weapon not only away, but up in the air enabling you to catch it.You'd have to be very fast, and skilled though.

[Cenghiz]

Forgive me Ritley, the attack you mentioned didn't seem possible to me... I've been trained in nunhacku for long.. I had some spar matches with people who perform different martial arts. Never anyone unarmed dared disarming me.. a nunhacku is much less wieldy than a bo staff or a sword, but any unarmed opponent with brainz would remain defensive, because they're normally told to do so... You do not leap forward and kick at the sword, you wait till the victim gets unbalanced, then attempt a punch at the shoulder (weak point), biceps (numbs the arm) or if you're lucky, armpits (dislocates the shoulder).
Only in Holywood films people try a kick at a weapon and only in Holywood films someone is stupid enough not to dodge backwards or... Y'know, with a nunhacku it's usual practice to swing at the arms and legs as soon as the opponent moves, I believe someone trained in Kendo could swing directly forward more swiftly then I can with a nunhacku.
Kicks may be three times stronger than fists, but still legs are not faster than arms. I've read the description of defence Moofassa mentioned and found it really possible.. But kicking at a weapon? Your leg would possibly hurt so badly for a few days.

[Ghost]

But kicking at a weapon? Your leg would possibly hurt so badly for a few days.

Or probably you would not have to carry a leg anymore.

[Tarx]

If I understand the code correctly, the more you do anything, the better you get at it, after failed attempts and stuff.  Not all Zalanthans are warriors or well-trained by any art of fighting, and not all should have a maxed-out disarm skill...nor will all employers train their guards/soldiers/etc. towards disarming/snatching weapons out of the air as a way to end combat more quickly.

I think that adding a "snatch" skill is not going to be very realistic or even especially useful.  In my opinion, I do not think most would have the luxury of wasting time (in single combat or at uneven odds) on trying to steal the weapon from their opponent--they would be more worried about either disarming them or simply beating back attacks, or landing critical blows on their opponent.  

I can try and explain why.  If a person gets into a combat situation and they have no combat experience or very little, they will NOT be focusing on trying to snatch a weapon from their opponent.  They'll try to do anything to win or get away alive.  If a person had some combat experience and training, they may attempt to disarm an opponent that is obviously lesser skilled or weaker or slower...but faced against a quicker, stronger, or more skilled opponent?  They should know better than trying something fancier.  A very skilled and talented warrior/combat trained character would perhaps consider something fancy like snatching the opponent's weapon, but only if the opponent had no chance of winning.

Fancy crap gets you killed...even disarm will get you killed if you pick the wrong opponent.

[Moofassa]

I don't think I would ever want to kick at a weapon, my legs are much slower than the fattest mans arms. If i even wanted to raise my leg that high against an armed oppononent, I wouldnt be kicking for his weapon. It would tak -atleast- ... lets say a quarter to a half of a second to move my foot up to his weapon, at which time, even if he was off balance, my foot would be gone with a flick of his wrist and the combination of my kicking power.

[Intrepid]

Their is different ways you know. We don't use weapons in Tae Kwondo, but we are taught to deal with them. We use a inward or outward crescent kick, and if done at the right angle sends a weapon not only away, but up in the air enabling you to catch it.You'd have to be very fast, and skilled though.

I asked my Korean friend this morning about this, since he's a Red belt
practicing for Black in traditional Tae Kwon Do.  The crescent kick has a
number of uses, but apparently disarming a skilled melee assailant is
still considered a bad idea unless they're a lot slower than you.

[Larrath]

Can someone please explain to me why we're discussing martial arts here?

I thought it was agreed, a long time ago, that while it's physically possible (though hard) to disarm an opponent empty-handed, it will make trouble in the game in terms of balance.  Just imagine a mantis NPC, without lag, dual-wielding scimitars and stealing both of your weapons to do quadrapule attacks on you while you're still lagged from your last failed kick.
Or, in opposite, kicking a weapon out of a mantis' hand when the mantis has an extra arm to deflect your kick.

It is possible to grab someone's weapon, especially if they come at you with it.  There are probably dozens of defenses against knife-stabs, for example, that end with the assailant having their arm broken.

It's simply not the point.  It should also be possible to kick sand into people's faces and blind them temporarily, and possibly make them choke by inhaling the sand.  It would also alter the game balance.  It should be able to take an argosy and run over an entire army of half-giants, but do you actually want this to happen in the game?
Because next time there's war between Allanak and Tuluk, you could bet your life on it ending with an argosy running over everyone in sight.

[Moofassa]

We were using martial arts to prove why it would be a BAD thing to implement onto Armageddon.

[Larrath]

We were using martial arts to prove why it would be a BAD thing to implement onto Armageddon.

Well, that's just beside the point.  So no use bragging about your fifth degree (to the power of Kpow!) black belts.  Heh.

Game balance trumps reality.  This is why elementalists don't really have combat skills even if they discover their abilities very late at life.  This is why you can't codedly push people onto the spiked railing in the Allanaki Arena to deliver very serious damage.  This is why it's possible for a group of ten humans wielding obsidian weapons to kill something like a silt horror.

This whole discussion is meh.
Meh!

Playability.  Balance.

[Moofassa]

Jealous And it's Gold-sash in kung-fu. Black belt is karate, and nowadays karate is poo.



I'm with you though, I agree with the whole balance thing.



Hiiiii-yah!

[Larrath]

There are two marks of a new or unskilled participant, and this is true for almost everything.

At first, you have the "My X is better than your X" phase.  Karate is better than Kong-Foot.  Karate is better than Judo.  MUDs are an exception since, like, the whole "we are the best mud" is like the core of each MUD's society.  Or something.

And then you have the recruitment phase.  If someone invites you to join them at almost any activity that you haven't been active in before (that is, a mudder inviting a non-mudder to their MUD), you can tell they're among the weakest folk there.

And Karate isn't poo, you twink.  Get over here so one of my characters can bitch-slap your character again!
Anyway, with this bit of interesting wisdom (or whatever), I leave this here thread.

[Intrepid]

Actually, you'll find that none of the individuals discussing the thread
currently brought up martial arts; we furthered the example because
someone else brought up martial arts as a reason they could disarm an
armed assailant.

[Ritley]

Forgive me Ritley, the attack you mentioned didn't seem possible to me... I've been trained in nunhacku for long.. I had some spar matches with people who perform different martial arts. Never anyone unarmed dared disarming me.. a nunhacku is much less wieldy than a bo staff or a sword, but any unarmed opponent with brainz would remain defensive, because they're normally told to do so... You do not leap forward and kick at the sword, you wait till the victim gets unbalanced, then attempt a punch at the shoulder (weak point), biceps (numbs the arm) or if you're lucky, armpits (dislocates the shoulder).
Only in Holywood films people try a kick at a weapon and only in Holywood films someone is stupid enough not to dodge backwards or... Y'know, with a nunhacku it's usual practice to swing at the arms and legs as soon as the opponent moves, I believe someone trained in Kendo could swing directly forward more swiftly then I can with a nunhacku.
Kicks may be three times stronger than fists, but still legs are not faster than arms. I've read the description of defence Moofassa mentioned and found it really possible.. But kicking at a weapon? Your leg would possibly hurt so badly for a few days.

You kick at the wrist not the weapon. May not be as fast punches, but they don't have to be.  Your making this sound impossible, but it's not. It's really anoyying.

[HardCarbon]

My teacher told me (after teaching us a few disarms.)

"A disarm is accidental if incidental."

Ie  you take it and know the move but don't push for it.

Forgive me Ritley, the attack you mentioned didn't seem possible to me... I've been trained in nunhacku for long.. I had some spar matches with people who perform different martial arts. Never anyone unarmed dared disarming me.. a nunhacku is much less wieldy than a bo staff or a sword, but any unarmed opponent with brainz would remain defensive, because they're normally told to do so... You do not leap forward and kick at the sword, you wait till the victim gets unbalanced, then attempt a punch at the shoulder (weak point), biceps (numbs the arm) or if you're lucky, armpits (dislocates the shoulder).
Only in Holywood films people try a kick at a weapon and only in Holywood films someone is stupid enough not to dodge backwards or... Y'know, with a nunhacku it's usual practice to swing at the arms and legs as soon as the opponent moves, I believe someone trained in Kendo could swing directly forward more swiftly then I can with a nunhacku.
Kicks may be three times stronger than fists, but still legs are not faster than arms. I've read the description of defence Moofassa mentioned and found it really possible.. But kicking at a weapon? Your leg would possibly hurt so badly for a few days.

You kick at the wrist not the weapon. May not be as fast punches, but they don't have to be.  Your making this sound impossible, but it's not. It's really anoyying.

[Tarx]

You kick at the wrist not the weapon. May not be as fast punches, but they don't have to be. Your making this sound impossible, but it's not. It's really anoyying.

I'll bite on that one--I think it is possible to do it in real life, Ritley.  I just don't think it's very plausible or useful in real life--or in the game.  You'd have to depend so much on so many variables that you would be guaranteed success only a small percentage of the time.  (You'd want it to work a lot more than that in either situation.)  Coding such a thing in a realistic way would be awful, as Larrath and others have said--it's a playability issue.

If we're going to debate what works and does not work in real life with martial arts stuff, then I hope this thread will be well on its way to locked.

[Cuusardo]

I only brought up Bruce Lee to back up my opinion, which I've stated already.

[Recharge]

I dont think any form of martial arts fits in with the game very well. Just my two 'sid.

[Anael]

Some groups...blahblah....as well as training in grappling and unarmed combat. Suspected practitioners of these styles are also known to be very acrobatic, capable of performing maneuvers that, if anticipated, might be considered flashy and inefficient, but when used on those unfamiliar with them, have the useful effect of possibly surprising them into inaction for a crucial split-second.

[Agent_137]

"possible" or not, I don't think this is really necessary. we have disarm. if you have the skills, you can disarm some one's greatsword with a shiv, and knock it into the next room. Why do you want more? I think it's pretty zalanthanian that if you don't have a weapon you run the fuck away. I think that's pretty accurate and pretty awesome. Leave it at that, eh?

[Intrepid]

The key term there is still "flashy but inefficient", much like Hollywood
fighting.