Just how big is the GOD in GodKing

[jmordetsky]

So a friend and I were having an intelligent discussion last night about how the average commoner would feel about their GodKing.

Personally, I've always felt most peasants in the cities would be range from devout and pios to the average believer. But that all of them would consider the Godking God, much in the same way that a religious man or woman on earth would consider jesus, buddah, alah, zeus or whatever.

Imho this opens up roles like zealot soldiers along side the corrupt ones, preachers, worshipers etc.

However, this friend of mine....we'll call him Sam....thinks such things don't have a place on Zalanthas. He felt that the Godking's were so oppressive that no one would truly ever think to worship them and that the peasants of the city would think Tek or Muk were evil and for the most part would only bow because they were forced by the oppressive power of the city state.

So, where does the truth of it lie? Are the people of the city states fiercely devouted to their gods? Or are they just waiting for the spark that sets them into open revolt against their "evil" oppressors?

Realisitically its probably a little bit of both, but which do you feel would be the pervasive attitude?

[Cenghiz]

I had a magicker who thought GodKing is just a defiler, after a loooong string of IC events. I had a few characters who believed -and told by her parents that- the Godking fights in Drov with shadows to free his citizens' souls after the death so not to become an undead and have an eternal, painful life, one must not miss the morning prayers to introduce himself/herself to Godking.
I believe it's intentionally left blank in the docs so we have free room for creativeness.

[WarriorPoet]

I like the idea of zealots and fanatical masses of commoners, so I'll side with you, here. We need larger displays of the Godking's powers, acts both benign and malevolent, to stir the populace. Neither of the Godkings rule completely through fear and intimidation. Allanak comes closer than Tuluk, I would say, but even Tek and his nobility occasionally toss the commons a scrap and a whole or individually. It only stands to reason that some people would be all about that.

And remember, this isn't some faceless idea of a God from a few thousand years ago. These guys are -right over there-. See that bigass Tower? You can bet Tek's in there, doing some kind of crazy shit. Don't believe it? Go ask one of His Templar to show you a little of -his- power. He lets them borrow the occasional drop from his bucket o' divine magick, you know. He's got plenty to spare. Don't believe it? Go ask someone from Steinal... Oh...

Besides. Aside from the Higlord's own moves to beat into submission and/or soothe the population, there are the simple facts of survival. There are waaaay too many people to survive in the city without some sort of government. On the off-chance the Godking didn't comepletely wipe the city in a tide of fire and blood, you would be left without the guiding hand of His templar and all the rest, right? No militia, Nobility and Templarate means no infrastructure or protection from the basest thugs out there, not to mention the marauding gangs of cannibals that are going to spring up about week-two of the famine. Nothing is going to come in or out of the city without being plundered, and your population would starve and dry up. You're better off bowing and scraping to the Highlord, doesn't it seem?

I like the idea of absolute power. These guys have it. Respect their authority. Worship them.

-WP

[Cale_Knight]

I was thinking about this a few days ago. It seems a little dumb in my mind that the templars would allow every citizen to have a "think whatever you want about him" policy.

But the only thing I've ever heard in game is "Tektolnes protects you. All hail Tektolnes."

I'd love to see a little more in-depth information about what the average commoner thinks and is encouraged to think about him.

[Pantoufle]

I don't think the average commoner is permitted to "think" about their King beyond a very short limit.  The abject prostration one sees is not comprable to Buddha, Mecca, or even religion.  It's oppression designed to keep the masses in line.  The average commoner may very well conjure up any number of supersticions about their King but religious zealots or preachers would be stomped out before you can blink (they would pose a threat to the templarate after all).  If there was to be any "gospel" it would be in the sole hands of the templars.  Perhaps the role of religious crazy or preacher might fit in the lawless Labyrinth, if one feels so innexorably intent on creating such a role.

There seems to be an ongoing plea from many players for religion in Arm which troubles me.  This MUD is unique in that it doesn't have organised religion.  It doesn't have prejudices againsts females or sexual deviants, either, so that these people can play the game freed from whatever biases they may suffer in the real world.  I don't want to play a woman treated as inferior in Arm, just as I don't want to play a character forced into religion either (there's enough of that in the real world thank you very much).  Enforcing religion would be akin to erecting mysogynist policies in game.

Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Pantoufle wrote:

Enforcing religion would be akin to erecting mysogynist policies in game.

... what?
Pantoufle wrote:

The average commoner may very well conjure up any number of supersticions about their King but religious zealots or preachers would be stomped out before you can blink (they would pose a threat to the templarate after all).

You're making a lot of claims without much explanation, and I'm a bit lost. How would they pose a threat? If I were a templar, I'd use these religious nutbags. And, in my experience, people that do make overly-zealous characters are actually hoping they'll be used as pawns. How would one raving lunatic threaten the templarate? Especially if they're ranting about how great the templarate is?
In regards to the OP's original question, I think there's a range. You can see Tektolnes as a terrible oppresor, a saintly protector, or (more realistically) a combination of both. This is something you have to decide for each character you play, but really, the end result is the same. Love 'em or hate 'em, the god-kings still rule. You might be able to stand up and praise him, but speaking out against him is a quick way to experience an excruciating death.

[Delirium]

Something to consider is this excerpt from the documentations:

For many freemen, the fact of citizenship in one city-state or another means simply which yoke one is oppressed under.

I think in both citystates, the pervading belief that their God-King is always watching helps to add a nice dose of paranoia to whatever other emotion they may feel regarding their ruler, whether that be fear, anger, or loyalty, and also helps to keep down any open heresey or revolt.  Also, the power of their God King is present every day, in the streets, in the form of the Templars, who wield the authority and power of their ruler.  Think of it like having hundreds of modern-day Messaiahs with the power to kill you at whim if you didn't go by their preachings, walking around the city.  Some might still disbelieve, but most would still publicly bow down and follow, if not out of loyalty or belief, then fear.

That said, I like the fact that religion isn't strictly defined.  Made-up religions in MUDS always bored me, for some reason.  There are enough to sort through in real life and enough stigma and social issues regarding them in real life that I don't particularly feel like playing out that aspect of the game.  It's a possibility thanks to the open style of the documentation, but it isn't a requirement.  I like having that freedom of choice.

[Larrath]

I don't even see why the Sorcerer Kings should be looked at as such evil entities, ICly.

Remember, these aren't commoners who deep down know that they're just as good as those nobles and that it isn't fair that the nobles bathe in water while they dehydrate to death.
These are commoners who, for the most part, think that the nobility is better than them just as much as we know that all human beings are equal.

Maybe Allanak doesn't provide all of its citizens with plentiful food, water, living quarters and what-not, but it does provide safe walls.  Insane killers, serious epidemics, defilers, magickers and mindbenders are all kept in check by the Militia and the Templarate.  Compare the size of Allanak to tribes like the Tan'Muark.  Even if you take away all slaves (about fifty percent) and all non-humans (another fifty percent), you still have 125,000 people.  I seriously doubt that there are more than (if even that or half of that) five thousand Muarki tribals.

Zalanthas is a tough world, with tough rules.  But if you're a talented human in Allanak and you don't let it get to your head and don't scheme more than you absolutely have to, you can live quite comfortably.

If Tektolnes called off Allanak and drove everyone out of the walls, you'd see a tremendous decline in the Known World's population.  People should keep that in mind when they call him evil, even if he did annihilate Steinal.
Same with Muk Utep.

As for being worshipped as a deity, I think the Templarate largely encourages this, as long as nobody delves too deeply.  (Tektolnes' righteousness is expressed by His magicks, but Tektolnes' righteousness is expressed by His magicks of Ruk and Vivadu, whereas Suk-Krath and Elkros signify his fury might displease some templars.  Anything much more could simply become a health hazard).

Also, I like it how there are no real beliefs regarding rebirth, reincarnation, souls and things like that.  It makes the world much more desperate and literally godforsaken, and this sense only serves to create greater immersion and realness to everything, almost completely plucking out right and wrong from the experience.

[Intrepid]

I think Allanak would have some degree of fanaticism among a small
percentage of the brainwashed populace.  Most Zalanthans in general
are too cynical and too busy with basic survival to care about possible
divinity of some King figure they never see.  However, particularly in
Allanak, the sorcerer-king appears to have been there from the very
beginning and could well be an integral part of the culture itself;
everything from the design of the city to the accents to the way people
think could be nudged along subtly over many generations by someone
who is just sitting back and watching.  As such, the city and outer holdings
themselves become an extension of the exhibited personality of their
ruler.

Also consider that the term "divine" does not have to mean "invincible".
The polytheistic gods of many cultures seemed to have their weaknesses,
faults and even mortality, unlike the more modern deities.  The average
Zalanthan is going to consider the word "god" as "someone who can do
things way beyond the reckoning of anyone else".  So really, even those
individuals who did not grow up brainwashed in a propaganda-laden
society from birth may, when asked if their Highlord is a god, say: "If he
isn't, he might as well be one."

Tuluk, on the other hand...now that's a different entity.  Muk Utep really
dropped the ball, from all outside viewpoints, when it came to keeping
Gol Krathu free and keeping Tuluk safe.  Before I get flooded with
objections, I do realize that Muk Utep is probably a match for Tektonles,
and that appearances can be very deceiving.  I'm just saying that it's
harder to have blind fanaticism in a higher being who abandoned you to
hell for a period of time--even a short one.  In the end, He did seem to
pull through with His servants, so I can see some volunteered devotion to
Him--just not quite the same, blind fanaticism we might see in Allanak.

But there may be another layer on all of this.  Here's my personal, pet
theory: Muk Utep and Tektonles are buddies who, to keep their own
massive populations from turning against them, keep them focused at
each other's city-states while they pass the millenia gathering more and
more and more and more power; by now, they've probably forgotten
more magick and psionics than any pc has ever been able to attain.
Zalanthas is just one world, and whenever it does die from them sucking
the life out of it, they'll just move to someplace more lush--assuming
that they aren't already there, siphoning energy from their old world by
remote control and having a laugh about it over a shared flask of
brandy.

All the other people who could threaten their grip on power within a city
are all set to struggle against one another: Merchants, Nobles, Templars,
just about anyone charismatic enough and rich enough to turn the city in
a direction they don't like is stuck in a sticky web of intrigue that they'll
never free themselves from.  Magickers and psionicists, their only true
competition, are either kept around to enflame the populace or decreed
satanic creatures to be killed off posthaste--this naturally keeps the
magick firmly in the hands of the good ol' boys and ensures that they are
the only ones sucking life out of the world or, in the case of elems, limiting
the influx of elemental energies from other planes.

So pretty much, I see them being the roots of the world and the eventual
victors.  Upstarts would be hard-pressed to compete...but I'd sure like to
try one of these days.

[Rindan]

I large part of the problem with ponder this is that even your most devote western atheist is deeply biased by the modern monotheistic religion with a single all powerful benevolent god.  If we were ancient Greeks, I think this matter would be much easier to sort out.  To even ponder this a little, you need to take everything you think of when you think of a god and toss it, because a monotheistic god is wholly different from all the other gods.  In particular, you need to realize that benevolence and all loving are two very different things.  Further, god like powers does not mean all powerful.  These beliefs are unique to modern monotheistic religions and not applicable to Zalanthas gods.

Your average commoner is going to believe that their God-King is benevolent and very powerful.  The proof of the God-King's benevolence is blindingly obvious.  Anyone who has taken even a cursory glance past the city walls realizes that Allanak is it.  They realize that the Highlord allows for them to exist.  Very few people would ever question that existence could exist without their God-King, and rightfully so.  They probably CAN'T exist without a God-King.  There are two things that a God-King provides that your average commoner would likely never question as being wholly in the domain of a God-King

1)  First, God Kings provide food and water.  No one in Allanak could ever be convinced that water comes from any other source then their God King.  Sure, it might be that Tek just drilled a nice deep well and that is where all that clean water comes from, but no commoner would believe it.  Almost all commoners would believe that their God King is the only reason they have the little food and water that they do.

2)  I think that no one would doubt that without their God King, even if thirst and starvation didn't finish them, something else would.  The people of Zalanthas are afraid of magiker, demons, and other God Kings.  Think of how worked up humans with only negligible signs of the super natural get.  Now think of how utterly crazy human who have direct and obvious proof of the super natural would get.  Your average Allanaki would believe that without Tek, something horrible and perhaps far less benevolent would take over.

As to how devote people would be, I think most commoners would be pretty devote.  At the very least, I think your average commoner would think nothing ill of Tek.  They might not make it their daily life goal to praise Tek, but at the very least they would say nothing ill of him.  I think some people would be down right fanatical.  I wouldn't be surprised to find some who take Tek worship so far that they would throw themselves upon the enemies blade if they felt that is what Tek wanted.

At the other end of the devotion spectrum, I think you might have people that recognize the necessity of their God King, yet knowingly despise his order.  Your average 'rinther might fall into this category.  Your average 'rinther would know better then to wish the God King dead, but also realizes that the actions of a small 'rinther could never possibly hurt him.  For this reason, he might feel no remorse in flouting the God King's laws.  To a 'rinther, Tek would be more like the force of gravity is to us.  I wouldn't wish away the force of gravity because I need it to exist, but gravity as I am falling off a roof.

As for old Muk, I a lot that applies to Tek and apply to Muk.  The big difference is that I think Muk's followers exist farther ends of the extreme.  I think that some Muk followers would look at their culture and have fanaticism to wither even Allanaki enthusiasm for Tek.  That said, I think that Tuluk might have a significantly larger population of secret heretics.  Sure, Tuluk is nice now, but Tuluk suffers from three problems.  

1) Other then the occasional acts by the Templars, Muk has not shown his power openly in a very long time, while Tek tends to make very grand displays from time to time.  From this alone some people might start to feel that their god is dead or diminished.  

2) There is a very clear line of power between Tek and the powers that be in Allanak.  That line of power is much more convoluted in Tuluk.

3)  Most importantly, Muk failed.  Tek has his set backs from time to time, but he always comes through, and when he does, it is generally a very grand display.  Muk on the other has failed big time.  He was too weak to prevent the destruction of Tuluk.  He was too weak prevent Allanak from occupying Tuluk.  When Tuluk was finally liberated, it wasn't liberated by the glorious powers of Muk in some grand display (like turning into a dragon and frying the invading army), but instead was liberated by a pile of rebels, raiders, and a mutant army that has to set a suppositious and magik hating population at very great unease.

That isn't to suggest that your average Tuluki looks at his grand city and culture and doesn't feel that Muk must be the greatest.  I am just saying that if you wanted to find heretics who feel otherwise, Tuluk and not Allanak would be the place to look.

[marko]

Just a note about Tuluk and "Muk's failure."

The average citizen of Tuluk is fully aware that all throughout the Occupation of the Gol Krathu by Allanak they never managed to take over the ruins and the Heart.  In fact, Allanaki troops were afraid to enter this location - clearly the domain of Muk Utep.

Further, the prior destruction of Tuluk did not destroy the Ivory Pyramid.  

Therefore, it is clear that Muk Utep has power over magick and over the South.  That the rest of the city was destroyed was for a variety of reasons, none of them involving an level of impotency on Utep's part.

All in Tuluk know that Muk Utep defeated the Dragon and forced it from the Known World.  Tek can't compete with that.

[Delirium]

Another sign a commoner could take of the power of Muk Utep's rule:

The wind dies as the light dims all around. A haze of green forms a vast and low hanging cloud in the red sky.

The thick green cloud obscures Suk-krath's face, and darkens the world.

As a wall of blinding pain smashes against your mind, your vision blurs. Gradually, a vast, endless void of black is superimposed over your sight, speckled with countless tiny dots of light

In the center of the expanse of tiny specks, you see two enormous, almost blinding masses of light. One, a half-humanoid, half-reptilian silhouette and the other a cluster of smaller points, united by an intricate web of glowing filaments

Suddenly, the two figures begin trading blows of unfathomable power with each other, the web of smaller points of light flaring brightly and seeming to grow in power with each smashing strike of sheer mental energy

The blinding bursts of light are accompanied by uncontrollable screaming, your hair itself seeming to ache from it until you realize, to your horror, it is your voice and the voices of all around you tearing out those horrible cries

The two enormous figures clash, exchange blows that light up the entire void and send bolts of ethereal, pale white energy streaking off in all directions

Amidst the chaos, many of the smaller points of light have begun to blink out and vanish, leaving only darkness in their place. Bright points of life and light are being snuffed out in the grand scale of the world

Gradually, the reptillian/humanoid figure seems to withdraw in on itself, falling back as blow after blow from the other figure lands. White hot agony sears through your head, making it nearly impossible to do much else besides watch

With a piercing shriek that reverberates in every inch of your body, the reptilian figure seems to solidify and grow duller, seemingly inert. A dampness on your face reveals your nose has begun bleeding from the mental assault


Abruptly, the filaments connecting the other mass dissolve and the scene fades as quickly as it began, leaving you with nothing but the images before your own eyes


The green haze melts back from the sun as if conquered. Suk-krath shines proudly, bathing the world in his victory.

( http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8312 )

[Stroker]

Also consider that the term "divine" does not have to mean "invincible".
The polytheistic gods of many cultures seemed to have their weaknesses,
faults and even mortality, unlike the more modern deities. The average
Zalanthan is going to consider the word "god" as "someone who can do
things way beyond the reckoning of anyone else". So really, even those
individuals who did not grow up brainwashed in a propaganda-laden
society from birth may, when asked if their Highlord is a god, say: "If he
isn't, he might as well be one."

I concur, the ancient deities certainly portray a spectrum of qualities, ranging from benevolence to malevolence (especially the anthropomorphic gods).

Zalanthan views of the divine, in my opinion, mimic the very early stages of religion/cult: Numina (spirits, forces, powers). Aspects of nature such as Whira, Krath, Ruk, Vivadu, etc seem to attribute the natural phenomena to certain spirits or forces, but their identity remains poorly defined.  In addition, cults of these powers are generally worshipped by magickers, which alienates the northern city-state (it may be inferred that a devotee of such a force is a magicker). Therefore, in my view, this cultural hindrance would prevent the evolution of religion within the city-states (tribes and nomads appear much more spiritually aware than your average commoner). The respective Kings may be viewed as saviors, protectors, heroes, etc, but not deities. In -our- eyes the power of the Sorcerer Kings and their relative immortality seems divine, but to the denizens of the city-states that frequently face the undead, defilers, and magickers, such facets may appear as commonplace or even a necessary quality.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Preacher]

The average commoner may very well conjure up any number of supersticions about their King but religious zealots or preachers would be stomped out before you can blink (they would pose a threat to the templarate after all).

You'd think that, wouldn't you?

Well, you'd be wrong.

[Cenghiz]

Just one question...

The first time I logged in with a dwarf warrior, I heard someone shouting outside "Follow me to morning devotions!".. I said "Cool! They do actually worship their Godking..". I hurried outside with the templar and worshipped Tektolnes for the first time. But I don't know why, the script's been removed.

I would 'love' to have that script back, and another in North, too. Not a direct pray call, but maybe from time to time a Jihaen Templar enters King's Sanctuary, introduces himself, ask the citizens to remain silent for a moment to think about the Sun King and what goodness they may do for their king today.. Then he may leave a donation cup on the floor.

Err.. Still a ripe idea of course, but something alike may be done...

[Pantoufle]

You'd think that, wouldn't you?

Well, you'd be wrong.

Just because something happens in game, or someone gets away with it doesn't make it realistic or appropriate with the setting.

I could make a ranger and easily amass a fortune surpassing 100,000 coins through use of buy/sell tactics.  My character would be wealthier than any noble PC in game.  You could tell me it's not possible to do such a thing and if I felt like being cocky my reply would read:

"You'd think that, wouldn't you?  Well, you'd be wrong."

But that still doesn't make it realistic.

I think Delerium's post ideally sums up my own sentiments.  If true religion existed in either city-state, it wouldn't the type of thing permitted at the individual's discretion, it would be rigorously enforced.  Again, if you enforce players to partake of religion in game, you may as well enforce mysogyny as well.  If I played a character who laughed at the notion of homosexuality, I guarantee you the same people who plea for religion would be all up in arms saying it goes against documentation, he can't do this, somebody stop him!  I play this fantasy game to retreat from all that real world nonsense, not to endure more of it!

Why would preachers and religious zealots pose a threat to the templarate?  Because that's the templarate's job!  Would it be any different if I waltzed on through Tuluk declaring "Citizen's arrest" for people that, in my commoner's opinion, are breaking the law?  That's also the templar's job.  A commoner interpreting the will of Tektolnes or Muk Utep is essentially committing heresy, whether or not you're doing it in game unhindered by CURRENT templar PCs.  That's like walking into a church of which you're not a member and standing at the podium that isn't yours and reciting from "scriptures" you've neither read nor understand.  I think the Priest would agree that you're posing a threat to his credibility also.

[Preacher]

I suppose that the only reason the immortal-animated NPC templars aren't out to get me (and I have not gone unnoticed by them) is because the current immortals also possess an incorrect view of the world.

Don't worry, I'm sure that will all change as soon as the current immortals retire and we get new ones.

[Salt Merchant]

I don't even see why the Sorcerer Kings should be looked at as such evil entities, ICly.

Tektolnes is a bastard. His nobles and templars treat the common people worse than they would livestock. Even the animals get consideration of being managed without malice and torture. Not the populace.

The level of suffering in Allanak is immense. You just need to visit the Commoner's Quarter or the 'rinth to see it. Or stand outside the "temple" in the very heart of the city.

There is a sort of protection and just enough provision to prevent it all from collapsing upon itself. You could argue the same thing for a jail though. And who is to say the people couldn't form a city and army if Tek were not present? At least so long as another sorcerer king didn't take an interest in conquest, which is just more proof that they're not admirable beings.

And this doesn't even take past events into account. Does anyone remember when the steel dragon appeared on the city wall? I won't go into more detail about the dangers of that time except to say only fortune saved people then. Here's something straight from the history though; Tek raising a sandstorm of such magnitude that it obliterated an army and an entire city (Steinal). Think of the incredible toll on the land that must have taken, both the gathering of the energy and the storm.

[Uh Another Preacher]

Trying to avoid all IC details, I'm going to comment on the likelihood of a miscellaneous preacher being punished or shut down by the templarate and say it would depend entirely on context.  While the other anonymous poster might have had his or her own success with it, you can rest assured that saying anything you feel like saying with religious undertone does get raised eyebrows.  I'll say again, context is very important.  What results depends a lot on what you're saying, who you're saying it to, who catches you, and how they feel about what you're saying (some are bound to be more or less lenient than others) among other things.

[Agent_137]

I believe it's intentionally left blank in the docs so we have free room for creativeness.

This is how I feel.

[jhunter]

I believe it's intentionally left blank in the docs so we have free room for creativeness.

This is how I feel.

Agreed.

[Stroker]

Cenghiz wrote:

I believe it's intentionally left blank in the docs so we have free room for creativeness.


This is how I feel.

True, but that is the reason as to why the topic is being discussed. If there was absolutely no ambiguity, there would be no need for a discussion.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Maybe42or54]

...Snip...
Tektolnes is a bastard. His nobles and templars treat the common people worse than they would livestock. Even the animals get consideration of being managed without malice and torture. Not the populace.
....Snip...

(from a commoner's point of view)
Yea, just imagine being hunted every day by everyone stronger than you.

And see all of those Gemmed Magickers? Could you imagine if none of them had gems? They would be everywhere, just imagine how many slip by?!?

Scrabs love to eat people, without walls, they eat more people.

He protected us against Steinal, the stumps, and Tuluk.

There is no water anywhere in the desert! I could travel for months and still not find Red Storm, that is how big the desert is. Sure its expensive, but atleast they have water for me.

Without tek outlawing spice, I would have died, but since my family couldn't buy spice anymore, he bought more water and food.

If Tek didn't go through all the trouble to make noble houses and the templars, we all would have died because we have no money to buy water.

Sure, they torture some people, but as long as they don't torture me or mine, there is really no problem huh? Need to learn from their mistakes.

All most Allanaki commoners see are the onesided story. They don't know that any place could be better since they have a lot more thieves, man eating northerners.

Worst of all, if my sister pissed someone off in Tuluk, she'd disappear, where as in Allanak, she'd get tortured publically and I'd know if she died or was sold as a slave, or something.

[Vesperas]

I think here and there, hidden deep in the docs and helfiles, there is made mention of a 'God.'  But its usually forgotten with, you know, Muk and Tek's existence.

[Larrath]

There is a mention of 'God' in helpfiles.

Namely, in the magick_power helpfile.  Just a typo waiting to be fixed as far as I see it.