load crossbow bolt

[Anael]

People seem to prefer bows to crossbows and slings. Maybe it's just how it seems to me. I don't know, but one thing I really find irritating on these 'load-able' ranged weapons is the command spam you need to reload it. Where you just 'pull arrow quiver' with bows, you need to 'rp,get bolt <container>, load crossbow bolt, ep crossbow'. Four commands instead of one. On one hand, this reflects crossbows' slowness pretty nicely, but it's really more irritating for the user, let alone the spam he causes in his room.
I can see two ways to fix it:
1) Make 'load' command possible when the weapon is held (no need to rp and ep with each loading session)
2) Make it possible to load a projectile directly from a container, without taking it out. ie:

Code Select Expand

>load crossbow quiver
You reach into a narrow quiver and slide out a steel-tipped bolt.
You load an iron reinforced crossbow with a steel-tipped bolt.


What do you think?

[Nao]

Only if there is a significant lag for loading a crossbow. Because whilst drawing back on a bow is a matter of a second or two for a skilled archer (and not much more for someone like me that doesn't know what they are doing), whilst loading a crossbow requires much more force and effort.

[Anael]

This applies to slings and other weapons, not just crossbows. Also, that'd completely waste the purpose of what I propose. I say: cut down the amount of commands needed to reload to 2-3 instead of current 4. Having to put in two commands -and- wait for a lag seems like a big playability vs realism issue. One command with a lag would be okay, IMO, but sounds harder to code.
I mean, I see people using these weapons just issue all four commands at once, probably via an alias. There's no real delay in that, just icky spam.

[Desertman (not logged in)]

He has a point, I have used a crossbow a few times and there isnt much more lag when I alias all of the commands, its just a pain. One command with a set lag would seem more realistic and much easier on the player.

[Delirium]

I think it's kind of cheese to alias the commands all together.. that makes it too quick, just like using a regular bow. Until and unless a command with lag is put in.. it would be much better, IMHO, to make two aliases.. one to remove your bow and get a bolt, and a second to load it and re-equip it.

That would make it at least a -little- more like using a crossbow should be.

And damnit, don't use these things for hunting.

They are for killing people.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Since the load command is used for sheath-type objects as well, I'm not sure you could wrangle the parameters to work so that you could "load crossbow quiver". You could eliminate two of the steps by allowing the load command to target items that are ep or es, though. Right now you can't "load bolt crossbow" if you're wielding the crossbow, or "load knife boot" if you're holding the knife.

Also, adding delay to the load command would do it to loading objects into a sheath as well, which doesn't really seem all that logical to me.

[Intrepid]

Actually, the main difference between crossbows and bows should be
ease of use.  Bows are faster but more difficult to use, whereas crossbows
are slower but easier for the typical Joe Shmoe to use.  The latter is a
military weapon, the former is for the uber-skilled.

[Agent_137]

Actually, the main difference between crossbows and bows should be
ease of use.  Bows are faster but more difficult to use, whereas crossbows
are slower but easier for the typical Joe Shmoe to use.  The latter is a
military weapon, the former is for the uber-skilled.

and crossbows don't go far at -all-.

Which makes them bad for hunting. It's equivalent to hunting with a high powered pistol. Sure you CAN do it, but it's really silly because you're hunting without the range and accuracy of a rifle.

[Desertman (not logged in)]

Ummm...I have shot both crossbows and bows IRL (more bows than crossbows)...but you can hunt very well with a crossbow...its easier than a bow actually and they are powerful as hell....They are actually illegal to keep in your vehicle in my state for this reason, they are ideal for illegal hunting. Though for Geddon purposes, I do prefer to see them used  against pcs...mainly just because it looks badass in my mind, but for no practicle reason.

[Intrepid]

I hate to disagree with you, Desertman, but the entire reason crossbows
came about was because archers were once the elite in a company; not
everyone had the manual dexterity needed to fire a bow and arrow.  The
crossbow, on the other hand, could be cranked back, a bolt fitted into the
slot unerringly and then rested atop a turret for firing, giving more control
over the weapon's direction--something necessary when a group lacks
the manual dexterity to fire accurately otherwise.

It came down to the point that armies defending castles preferred quantity
to quality, and you get that by arming everyone with a crossbow rather
than having an elite squad of archers.

[JollyGreenGiant]

A quick trip to the Wikipedia entry on the crossbow reveals:

Given the great accuracy of the crossbow, it filled many duties that sniper rifles have today.

In the later years of the crossbow it had enough kinetic energy to penetrate the armor of a knight with ease: some reached a draw force of nearly 350 lbf (1600 N), compared to the 60-180lbf (300-900 N) draw force for a longbow. Moreover, crossbows could be kept cocked and ready to shoot for some time with little effort, allowing crossbowmen to aim better and to "cover" a target area, while archers could not keep their powerful bows pulled for long periods of time.

[Desertman (not logged in)]

Yes....I hate to see you disagree with me as well...though Jollygreen giant pretty much set the record straight on it. Thanks to him for his hard work in looking that up.

[Intrepid]

There's no need to be snarky.

[Manhattan]

dude wikipedia is bullshit. longbows are stronger than crossbows. a history buff told me that.

[Agent_137]

depends if you shoot the longbow in the air first, or directly at the target.


When you arc the longbow shot, it gains tons of momentum thanks to gravity. You never arc xbow shots.

Plus, I think there's way more room for skill growth in the longbow than the xbow in the real world.


Also, current xbows are a FAR cry from ancient xbows, espescially ones made out of wood and bone.

[Desertman (not logged in)]

I have shot alot of bows...from basic shitty wooden single slants to fiberglass recurves...I shot one crossbow and couldnt believe the power the little sucker packed. Thats about all I know...I dont know any history majors...I dont know any professors of projectile warfare...I just know I have held it in my hands...and though there may be some bows out there...compound bows I am sure...that beat the piss out of a crossbow...they are powerful little bastards.

[Anael]

dude wikipedia is bullshit. longbows are stronger than crossbows. a history buff told me that.

You're referring to British longbow. Mind you, those were probably the ultimate European ranged weapons of their period. Arrows shot from those had far stronger punch than crossbows of the same time, yes, but note that it was partially because of smartly crafted arrows balanced with wax. These longbows were stronger than crossbows, but that's only one very specific type of bows. Also... they were pretty cumbersome. With their length, they couldn't be used effectively by mounted archers and they weren't too precise. They didn't need to, the trick was to use a huge number of archers. The devastating effect of a shower of arrows that could punch through wood was enough to beat most, so precision was not really needed. Shorter bows were usually used for hunt more often, longbows were a military weapon. Still, most bows were weaker than crossbows. Also, once crossbows met the art of composite and reflex bowmaking, they quickly started using this knowledge. That's why today's crossbows are far stronger than any bow you can possibly make.
Doh, I did it again.

EDIT: Anyway, I don't see this discussion too productive. I doubt anyone but Imms knows for sure what are Zalanthan crossbows really like, if they're any stronger than bows or not. My point was that the way reloading works codedly seems a bit icky.

[HardCarbon]

dude wikipedia is bullshit. longbows are stronger than crossbows. a history buff told me that.

 Depends on the crossbow/longbow in question....

Crossbows  like  rifles.. are easier to use....  Longbows (espically good ones)  are deadly.    but also take years to learn to use properly.


  Warriors would use longbows... soldiers.. crossbows.   Being able to train someone  to use a crossbow in say a couple months.. is huge.. espically vs say 10 years to master  the longbow.

In Game terms.. crossbows should be slow.. but hit like an inix on a bad day.

[Obsidian Lord]

Wow - lots of misinformation on this thread, but having been an archer myself in the past (deer hunting, winning competitions), I side with Desertman.

Facts:
1. Longbows are limited in the strength of their pull due human strength limits.  Anyone who has pulled a 60lb longbow knows you have to be freaking strong to pull anything much heavier.  Also, aiming a 60lb bow (the lowest end of the range quoted above) can only be done for a minute or two before fatigue in your arms get you.  This means you must shoot quickly before you start shaking or your aim will suffer.

2. Crossbows, since they use mechanical means, can theoretically have a pull limited only by their materials - which can be much greater than the pull of any longbow.  Additionally, you will not shake holding it for along time and the flight of the arrow will be straighter (due to the heavier pull) all of which will give you a better, more accurate shot with a greater possibility of penetration when it gets where its going.

3. Crossbows are slower than longbows, in general, especially if you have a heavy one that you can not cock without a lever or crank.

4. I've (and this is just my own experience) never seen some of the bad-ass arrow heads on bolts that I've seen folks use with their recurve and long bows. I'm not sure why that is - but even in historical displays, I've never seen what amounts to a "broad-head" on a bolt.  I suspect this is because bolts were used (as mentioned) for armor penetration.  I never have hunted with a crossbow, but I bet if you slap a broad-head on a bolt you have a missile significantly more damaging than an arrow.

5. It does not take "years" to learn to use a longbow.  It takes a long time to get the strength required to pull some of those middle ages long bows if only due to the strength required.  You could develop reasonable accuracy with a reasonably heavy pull bow in a summer.  Pulling a 100lb longbow would require time for you to develop muscle only.

6. There is nothing mystical about the average joe archer or crossbow man.  There is something mystical about GREAT anything.

All you have to do to figure this out is during Saturday down time stop by your local indoor archery range and try a few things out.  :-D