Overkill

[skeetdaddle]

I love this quote:

Naiona wrote:

1) Is killing someone for a minor insult really a very realistic thing to do? There is harsh and then there is psychopathic. Is your character a serial killer to do such a thing?

Which brings up a good question - why are characters so quick to kill in game. Now I'm not saying that everyone should stop killing each other, but I would like to see more fights. Think about it. Killing in real life isn't easy, so why would it be in game? A lot of times people become truly traumatized when they kill someone else, yet I've seen characters kill others in game without a second thought. I just think it's too easy. And maybe instead of killing someone for insulting you, or stealing your skinning knife, what might make more sense is to just give them a sound beating. Another good example of this idea put to practice is the raider. Is it better to kill someone and loot their corpse once, or knock them unconcious so they can live for you to steal from them again in the future? Just some food for thought.

[moab]

People kill in game because it's the easiest way to get stuff out of someones inventory if you don't have the steal skill.  :-D

Seriously - a good enchancement to the game would be if every combat ended instead of with death but with a critically wounded unconscious person (as if your perfected mercy skill worked perfectly) so that you can make the choice whether to kill or not yourself.

On the other hand - leave someone alive and they are a risk.
Dead, they don't matter.

That's why fights often end up killing someone.  If you argue with someone and cut each other a few times - what's to say if you leave him alive he's not going to show up later with three friends and smack you down.  Or poison your drink.  Or cast that fireball or whatever.  Death is a final answer.

[Gaare]

I like the fact that life is sooooo cheap on Zalanthas.. even for nobles, templars. Actually, when death is a part of common life, I doubt many Zalanthian would have much problem with murder. (i.e. Like I doubt many Iraqi would have similiar, even closer feeling about death and  killing like us.)

What I do not like to see is..

When it comes to PK, we RP that very easily, but when another concept of Zalanthas comes in front of us, like complete acceptance of homesexuality, gender-equality, daily life bribing, class differences within population, we are not so open-minded and don't play as easily as we play murder. (i.e. quotes like "I do not bow a one-year player newbie noble", "I am right! Women are weak", "I do not bribe IRL, that's hard for me to bribe IG.")

At the buttom of things, if someone makes PK so easily, I think that same person should be ready to be killed by a templar just because, that very day templar was in bad mood of seeing a person with extremely good gear but did not bribe a single coin... after all both are realities of Zalanthas.

[Bebop]

Killing offers finality, if you leave someone alive there is a chance they wil report an upstanding citizen as a raider.  Yes, just because you kill doesn't mean that you are still not a good citizen of the city.  People see death in Zalanthas everday especially hunters, mercenaries, rinthers and assassins who kill for a living.

I think most people wouldn't think twice to kill somone if they were truly insulted.  After all most people in Zalanthas don't have much more than their name.  I've been stolen off of before and that kind of thing that lead to a bar fight and such.  And actually unless someone is just a total newb it actually takes some planning and skill to kill them without anyone finding out.

[Vesperas]

Honestly, I think that's half the fun.

I would love for someone to run off and tattle on my shady character, or even make up some shit to the templars just to get back at me.  (And, laff, I had planned to do something similiar, had a character in power to do it had lived long enough)

That's when the great RP starts.

[Bebop]

Honestly, I think that's half the fun.

I would love for someone to run off and tattle on my shady character, or even make up some shit to the templars just to get back at me.  (And, laff, I had planned to do something similiar, had a character in power to do it had lived long enough)

That's when the great RP starts.

Yeah that's true, I've been in that kind of situatio where I attacked someone and left them alive and was labeled wanted and stuff.  It did make for some interesting RP I'm just saying that if you don't want to risk not being able to go back to the city for your character personally, death will offer you that security.  You can threaten to do something next time if that person doesn't keep their mouth shut but if they go back into the city and don't come out you may be in a hard-pressed situation.

[Rindan]

The biggest problem is that the only way to even have a vague chance of not having a Templar come after you is to flat out kill someone.  The problem is that in Armageddon it is close to impossible to hide your identity.  Further, once your identity is revealed, the list of people anyone needs to search in an area is probably never greater then 30.  Further still, people have very long memories.  

The net result is that if you are a raider and want to ever return to a city, the only option you have is to kill anyone you raid from.  The same goes with hiring people to beat another person up.  There is absolutely no way hire a gang of thugs to beat someone up short of magik or staff intervention that has those thugs ever being able to step foot in a civilized area again.  Anti-social activities, especially ones as overt as beating someone up, is a very good way to get banned from a city.  If a city only has two bars, it takes 10 seconds for the militia check both bars and to match your description to the one they heard.  People tend to go way off the deep end when it comes to retribution because there is little other alternative.

To complicate matters, most people in game belong to some super powerful and rich organization.  Two 'rinthers can get away with beating the shit out of each other, but beating up a noble house servant is going to end you up in front of a templar.

It all boils down to the following:
1)  Anonymity doesn't exist.
2)  It is trivial to match a description of a person to their sdesc.
3)  It is trivial to search a massive city of half of a million for a single person by simply checking the only non-virtual taverns.
4)  Most people are connected to powerful organization with at least enough sway to get a militaman to arrest you.
5)  Murder is the only way to have even a reasonable chance harming someone anonymously.

[Cuusardo]

I personally think it can be more fun to make the target of your anger infinitely miserable to get even with him/her.  If the object of your ire is a snobby aide, give a stinky beggar some 'sids to follow the aide around and bother her.  If it's a rinthi who stole from you, bribe one of the militia to arrest him.  If you're a sneak, follow the person around and do things that would worry her while you're hidden in a crowd.  There are TONS of ways to get even without resorting to death.  Screw with them, and screw with them good.

Beating the crap out of someone could work too.  Sometimes putting the wallop on someone in a good old fashioned fistfight can work wonders.  If you don't think you can do it yourself, get your big burly buddies to help.  (Or a bunch of skinny ones.)  Beat the person into unconsciousness and steal some of their crap.  Do this for as long as you have to.  You can make a good chunk of 'sid by roughing the right people up.

There is a time and place for killing, but it's not always necessary.

[Agent_137]

I see also what rindan sees:

It all boils down to the following:
1) Anonymity doesn't exist.
2) It is trivial to match a description of a person to their sdesc.
3) It is trivial to search a massive city of half of a million for a single person by simply checking the only non-virtual taverns.
4) Most people are connected to powerful organization with at least enough sway to get a militaman to arrest you.
5) Murder is the only way to have even a reasonable chance harming someone anonymously.

But it's also a case of player trust.

We don't trust that person we mugged to roleplay realistically and not recognize us later because we were wearing facewraps and cloaks.

We don't trust the templars to do OOCly interesting things with our characters isntead of just killing them outright. (i.e. Spit on my boots, eh? Soldiers, beat the shit out of him immediately.)

We expect all the players to behave in their character's best interest, not in the best interest of realism and roleplay.

But unfortunately, this game is coded to REQUIRE TRUST. There are far too many ways to twink out and abuse the system to be able to have everyone operate OOCly in their character's best interest. We're still pretty MUSHy to a fair degree. Respect for the other PLAYER and faith in them should be paramount, not your own character's survival.

If it's not, then the game begins to break down and stop being fun. If you don't trust your fellow player, then you're not playing the right game. You're not playing WITH us. You're just playing for yourself, alone. So go play aardwolf, or learn to trust.

Of course, there ARE twinks. But don't let them spoil the game by letting their oppourtunist play spread to you.

AL QUEDA WILL WIN IF YOU DON'T TRUST YOUR FELLOW PLAYERS. THAT'S WHAT THE TERRORISTS WANT YOU TO DO. DON'T DO IT.

*coughs* sorry. Anyway, yea. So if a twink screws you over by twinking out your mdesc when you had hood, facewrap, gloves, and full gear on, EMAIL THE MUD and then roll with it. Being hunted is exciting. You can't always be the hunter.

[Rindan]

It isn't a case of trust.  It is a case of interpretation.  Some peoples interpretation is that if they see you, notice your ldesc despite the fact that you are dressed head to toe in a loose black clothing and are wearing a facewrap, that they can identify you again later.  There is a reason why this is a MUD and not a MUSH.  It is so that we can easily scoot around these issues.  Most people rationalize that if someone should be basically unrecognizable, then there ldesc would be obscured through coded means.

No, I honestly don't trust players to pretend that they didn't get a good look at my ldesc if I do go something mean.  Trusting players to not do this is a pretty unfounded sense of trust.  Players certainly trust in RP, but they also trust in code.  In this case, the code is pretty clear.  Despite the fact that there are coded ways to hide one's identity, these coded methods were removed.

Now, you can certainly argue that people should just RP through it.  Dress in an outfit to obscure your identity, then act surprised when you are pointed out quickly while you are enjoying an ale in the Gaj.  That might be well and good for throw away characters, but I tend to enjoy playing long lived characters.  A quick way to not live long is to do something anti-social regardless of how dressed up you are, then go have a seat in the Gaj.  Yes, you might survive the encounter with the Templar that will almost certainly be set before, and you probably will get drafted as a Templar informant to save your life.  Been there, done that.

The larger lesson is that trust or no trust, you can't play an anti-social character, regardless of how much effort you go to obscure your identity and still expect to slip by unnoticed in a city of a quarter million.  This results in people that either never enter PC populated areas, or not doing overtly anti-social things (like beating someone up) unless you intend to kill them.

Arguably, the complete lack of being anonymity is worth it for the other things it brings.  It keeps noble aids from being 'rinth killer and the like.    That said, ignoring that there is a hefty price that is paid when anonymity is utterly impossible short of magikal means is simply naïve.  No amount or trust or role play will get around the cost associated with making anonymity impossible.

[Agent_137]

So because some people might abuse being able to see your whole mdesc, you're just going to assume everyone will?

awesome. Do you do the same? awesome.

There are MANY things in this game which make it better by not putting all your decisions to code.
1. Someone moves in the shadows. Everyone stands up to scan.
2. Spam looking in all directions all the time so you are never suprised in the desert.
3. I really don't want to enumerate them all, i'd rather be playing. Suffice to say, i'm sorry you've been burned before, rindan, but don't take it out on everyone else. Turn the fuckers into the mud, don't turn into them.

[Ritley]

I love this quote:

Naiona wrote:

1) Is killing someone for a minor insult really a very realistic thing to do? There is harsh and then there is psychopathic. Is your character a serial killer to do such a thing?

Which brings up a good question - why are characters so quick to kill in game. Now I'm not saying that everyone should stop killing each other, but I would like to see more fights. Think about it. Killing in real life isn't easy, so why would it be in game? A lot of times people become truly traumatized when they kill someone else, yet I've seen characters kill others in game without a second thought. I just think it's too easy. And maybe instead of killing someone for insulting you, or stealing your skinning knife, what might make more sense is to just give them a sound beating. Another good example of this idea put to practice is the raider. Is it better to kill someone and loot their corpse once, or knock them unconcious so they can live for you to steal from them again in the future? Just some food for thought.

I was using it as a example more than anything else... and I didn't say minor insult. He is not quick to kill, but will if he has to.

[My 2 sids]

I think we have too much killing because it's easy from an OOC standpoint.

One, our population is wayyyy too close.  I mean, we're on top of each other... even with tons of cities everyone knows everyone else.   In reality this wouldn't realistically affect the culture.  But, because we have to interact with other PCs it turns into a big high school drama production.

Two, as the threads on PC slavery will tell, once a character starts to go down hill (not the direction the player had in mind) the player just wants to start anew.  Rather than playing a character who is shamed or mimed or imprisoned or exiled or enslaved players rather kill the character off and start again.

[Xygax]

Please stop discussing your current character(s) (I add the "(s)" here not because I think Ritley is multiplaying, but because it applies to everyone else as well.  Ritley is simply the current target.) on the GDB.  Whether or not you're justifying a particular RP choice or describing various personality traits, it is and has always been WHOLLY INAPPORPIATE to discuss your current PC on the GDB.  We have never been anything but clear about this.  Stop it.

-- X

ps - It's worth noting that in this context, I am quick to kill.

[Ritley]

Please stop discussing your current character(s) (I add the "(s)" here not because I think Ritley is multiplaying, but because it applies to everyone else as well.  Ritley is simply the current target.) on the GDB.  Whether or not you're justifying a particular RP choice or describing various personality traits, it is and has always been WHOLLY INAPPORPIATE to discuss your current PC on the GDB.  We have never been anything but clear about this.  Stop it.

-- X

ps - It's worth noting that in this context, I am quick to kill.

Sorry Xygax.

[jhunter]

One this subject I'm going to have to agree with Rindan every time. What he stated is exactly how I feel about the subject and I really wish a few changes would be make to fix the problem.

Right now things are skewed way to far to the benefit of the victim which forces the aggressor to resort to killing to balance out the situation.

[marko]

People like killing in arm because that is the custom of Arm.

Arm is played where life is hard and death is fast.  That's the concept.  That's the environment.  That's what happens.

A lot of times when someone runs away they are chased all around the world just to track them down.  To me, this is kinda silly, but it also keeps up the whole death is fast aspect.

I do not believe that killing is done so much as because there is no ability to conceal your identity but rather because there is no viable alternative.

Things like coded amputations rarely happen, permanent loss of hp due to serious scarring, or any other sort of punishment typically do not occur.  Because of this lack of different levels of punishment - people are just killed off.

If, for example, your character is caught for a crime then there are two possible outcomes - your char lives or your char dies.  Typically there is no middle ground where you char permanent loses 10 hp.  This ties back to why torture is useless in arm.  No matter how well played it is - it's still useless because the only 'threat' someone has it death.  There is no other punishment.

[Rindan]

So because some people might abuse being able to see your whole mdesc, you're just going to assume everyone will?

awesome. Do you do the same? awesome.

As I said, it isn't "abuse".  It is misinterpretation, different perspectives, and a reliance on code.  We rely on code for a good reason.  Code sorts out these disputes over perspective.  For example, if my bad ass warrior of doom takes a swing at a 'rinth in the tavern, I could either RP it out, or use the code.  I would choose code in this case because if I RP it out, I am trusting the 'rinther to RP appropriately to my skill level.  The truth is that my warrior could be bad ass and should hit every time, or the 'rinther in question could be quick as hell and easily avoid the punch.  RP is nice and all, but it is a case where it is better to simply let the code do its thing and emote along with the code.  If you do it through pure RP, the 'rinther can end the night pissed that a warrior emote skillfully blocking all of his swings, and the warrior can be pissed because he thinks a bad ass warrior like himself would fight so well that the 'rinth would stand no chance to dodge out of the way.  Sure, you can RP it out if you want and hope for the best, and in many cases RP might work just fine.  At the end the day though, it is damn nice to have code backing you up so that when your master warrior swings at a merchant, there is no question that you hit.

Concealment is the same.  It isn't a matter of RPed trust.  It is a matter of perspective.  One player thinks it is perfectly fine to look at his attacker and burn the memory of what that attacker looked like into his head.  The attacker might think that he is pretty well covered up and be pissed off when his identity is revealed.  Another player might assume that whatever the code tells him he sees is what he sees, and as things stand now, that is everything.  Code should be the arbiter of the dispute.  There should be ways to conceal your identity without trusting that your potential victim agrees that your identity is properly concealed.  

Finally, there is the simple practicality of the situation.  Having played more then my fair share of low lifes and criminals, I can say with absolute certainty that identities don't remain secret for long.  Trying to do anti-social things while your identity is obscured, then returning to civilization is a game you will loose every single time unless you kill all witnesses.  Sure, you can keep role playing and failing at the role, but that is roughly as fun as dumping characters into the sea of silt and RPing being surprised each time they drowned.

The simple fact of the matter is that Armageddon community is miniscule compared to the community that exists in game.  To complicate matters, there are some very easy and absolute ways to identify people.  If you get identified even once, your options narrow down to either fleeing civilization (and most player interaction) or getting captured/killed.  This isn't terribly realistic, but the undisputable reality is that this IS how things are.

If you truly believe that it is possible to conceal your identity, then I challenge you to go make a krathi, throw on a generic dark hooded cloak, face wrap, generic pants, and try blasting obsidian miners and letting them escape.  Then wander back to Allanak and have a drink in the Gaj.  If such a character lasted more then a week before being picked up by the templerate, I would be shocked and amazed.

I am not saying allowing coded concealment doesn't have its problems, but to claim that this doesn't have a drastic effect on how people perform anti-social activities and can simply be RPed around is sticking your head in the sand.

[Vesperas]

You are sharing a game with a multitude of people, and some of them are genuine jackasses.  Since we can't expect the staff (who are not secretly government-funded AI constructs built as the first phase for world domination) to police these kinds of things 24-7, we just have to forget and forgive when someone burns us with really stupid RP.  Adding to the problem is not going to encourage the addition of code that would, in the long run, be buggy and annoying.

Some things I try to remember when RPing:

1.  If you are in a tavern and sense someone sneaking... ignore them.  Who the hell cares, unless your character is paranoid?  You are in a room BUSTLING with activity.. the sounds, the smells, the booze... are you absolutely sure you saw what you saw?

2.  Mugged and let go?  Well, you COULD bribe the militia.  That's one option.  Or you could a little research on your new-found target...get him where it hurts.  Or give that over-zealous inexperienced assassin a chance to prove himself.  Or forget him all together... in reality, this is probably not the first time.

3.  Throw caution to the wind and *gasp* make an IC friend.  In fact, create a small network of friends.  Friends, not contacts.  Or get used to drinking alone at the far end of the bar, and never having anyone to watch your back.  And having to actually -pay- for the mudsex.

4.  Give people a reason not to run off and whine to the templar about knocking them around.  Make it fun, and then slip in ideas through your RP.

5.  Remember clothing first, description second.  Ignore short-descs altogether, except for quick recognition of people your character has talked to extensively.  Decide how forgetful your character is (and be reasonable, take in consideration IC time), and periodically "forget" people you don't see or hear about for a while.

[jhunter]

That's all well and good but that's not the way it works out. All it takes is one asshole who decides they can see enough of your pc to pick you out of a crowded tavern later on and your pc is most likely fucked.

Unfortunately, if you actually want to play one of those types successfully you are left with killing any witnesses.

I realize of course that "winning" isn't the point.

But, dammit it would sure be nice just once not to get fucked over by "the one mindbending man with x-ray vision and a photographic memory" who blows it for your criminal pc every damned time.

[skeetdaddle]

Wow! I'm just absolutely amazed at the wealth of good ideas that have popped up on this thread! Bravo to all! I would also like to say that the issue of concealment is a good one, and that I would ultimately like to see coded items that did actually conceal people's desc's. But, I realize this is asking a lot, and will whole-heartedly admit that I don't even see how it could be coded in unproblematically (<- is that even a word?). That being said - if someone is wearing a facewrap, has their hood up, is wearing a greatcloak and boots, do you really think you're going to be able to tell the templar about the mole behind their left ear, or the cute little quirri tattoo on their back? No. It just doesn't make any sense! Try to roleplay with what the person is wearing. It's just good form. Another thing to consider is time length. Did they run through the room and you just happened to pop off a look as they were passing through? If so, then you might be a little fuzzy on things like specific tattoos and eye color. I just think that it will benefit us all to keep these things in perspective. Keep it real. Don't give a templar an exact report on the big bad meanie who pushed you in the bar. I also would like to say that I thought Cuusardo's recommendations were awesome, and that I would love to see more of this going on, instead of just outright killing.

[Vesperas]

Something else I try to avoid.. when I AM describing someone, I'd really feel better if I could find a way to describe their character, and not the short desc.

Instead of telling someone, "Yeah, there was a man in here this morning.  He was balding and had red eyes." when you are talking about "the balding, red-eyed man," you could instead opt for features YOUR CHARACTER would notice:  "Yeah, there was a man in here this morning.  The fecker was as tall an as elf, pale as Drov.  I think he may have had red eyes, but I didn't get a good look at 'em."

As for the way things "really" work... honestly.  Yeah, all it takes is that one a-hole who decides he's got a photographic memory and x-ray vision to get your character shit on, but show some integrity and don't let it bother you.  When they do something particularly stupid, report them to the MUD, and go about your business.  Don't add to the problem by joining in the psychopathic wave of always-kill-my-victim F-me assassin-PCs.  Please.

[Anonymous]

Another thing I think it boils down to is this: Raiding outside the gates, and raiding inside the gates.
Now, I would think someone raiding outside the gates really wouldn't need to worry so much about who saw him, but might want to pick his targets carefully. That Salarri seargant? Probably a bad idea, good connections. That poor grubber digigng through the gortok shit for some tasty meat? Yeah, that might be a good target (provided they have something worthwhile) At any rate, my point is this: It's your word against theirs. As long as you pick carefully, who gives a fuck who sees you? Let 'em live so you can do it another day...threaten them, make their life hell if they scream bloody murder. Hire someone to rough them up...but who care if they know who yo are?

The stern-faced, long-nosed Templar approaches your table, looking you over critically.

The stern-faced, long-nosed Templars says to you, pointing to the grubby, wild-haired half-elf, "Did you attack this...man...on the road?"

With a quirked eyebrow, looking the grubby-wild-haired half-elf over you say, "Never seen the filthy 'breed before in my life."

Should Templars really give a fuck if someone has developed a reputation for rading outside the city walls? As long as you're not stirring up trouble inside the gates, what do they care, so long as you haven't made the wrong enemy, so to speak. Sure, situations might exist that'll make things a bit more difficult, such as being a magicker or something, but overall...why would a Templar really give a shit if some noname, shitpants hunter got jumped on the road? Knock 'em out, rob 'em blind, let 'em live another day so you can do it all over again. Who cares if they spotted you. Ah, let the good times roll. Of course, like I said, it really depends on the target...I'll agree some of them just need to die. Find a mark, and realize it's a Borsail captain just as you knock 'em out? Uh...yeah, probably best to kill that one.  Suppose most of this still applies to inside the city violence/raiding as well.

I do think people are too quick to kill in this mud, I was one of them for quite awhile...then I RP'd a character who killed ONE pc, and was traumatized for the rest of their life over it. Now I've got a different outlook. Be creative...they don't always need to die.

[drunkendwarf]

And uhh...the above post was me, if anyone gives a crap.  :wink:

[Halaster]

I agree with what most people are saying here too, and I also find it a bit annoying when people instantly notice all the details of how you look despite your concealment via clothing.  Some people say "just have some integrity and don't let it bother you if they're being cheesy".  To that, I have to say:  It's hard not to let it bother me when that particular action is resulting in serious harmful affects for the character I'm playing.

Solutions?  I don't know.  Maybe some coded ideas would work.  We have the code for masks, which will totally conceal your main description.  The problem with that, of course, is that it isn't totally realistic because the main description can include how fat your legs are, or how big your boobs are - things a mask would obviously not conceal.

There was a suggestion made at one point that I liked.  A sort of pieced together description.  Upon creation, you'd describe parts of your body, instead of the whole thing.  And then if you wore certain types of clothing they would get covered up.  Of course, the issue with that is that everyone's description would kinda be similar and you'd lose a lot of the creativity.  (i.e.  This man has fat legs, and his arms are musclar.  His eyes are blue and his hair is black ... everyone's would flow like that).  Not to mention that newbies would be so lost, we wouldn't get hardly any new players anymore.

So when you balance things, I think the mask code is probably the best solution, if any (aside from no solution).  That was removed, of course, because within 5 minutes everyone and their mother has a mask, and starts wearing it.  That can be countered a little bit in the cities by making them illegal, but it still wouldn't prevent a desert full of "tall masked figures" as every desert elf started wearing them.  We could limit them, a little.  Make them very very rare.  But then you'd have people murdering each other for masks, which is kinda silly.

I guess what I'm saying is that I, personally, don't have any real solutions in mind.  Like it or not, it seems to fall back to having to trust, on some level, the other players.