The Look Echo

[LauraMars]

I was in a certain crowded tavern tonight, and all of the pcs had such interesting sdescs that I wanted to fill mine eyes with their main desc delight.  However, I never feel as though I can take this liberty for everyone in the tavern at once.  Maybe one or two people, but never all seven pcs sitting at the bar.  The LOOKS AT YOU spam would be too great.  

I have the urge to one day go into a tavern at peak playing hours and look at every single person there.  It would set off a chain reaction of the spam stigma being dropped, and we would get to see pages upon pages fill with people looking at each other.  I understand we can add modifiers to the look command, which makes it a bit more interesting, but it still doesn't seem realistic.  In real life, I never notice anybody looking at me unless they are staring.

The look echo seems a bit silly, to me.  I wonder what it's purpose is? I think you should be able to look at someone without them knowing you're looking.  What good would being able to tell when someone has looked at you do?  It just doesn't appear realistic, especially since in many cases you wouldn't know, or the look is just a glance.  

I don't know that my point is being made here, but maybe if someone understands and agrees with me, who knows more about the game world than I do, they could help me flesh out this idea.

Do we need the look echo?  Really?  I think it's just a lot of added clutter that doesn't make sense in a lot of situations.

[Agent_137]

whoa, yea, lots of people agree with you, lots don't.

use the search function to find the other threads, please. Look over one or two, then add to them.

not to be a forum nazi, but I've seen this one personally at least three times.

[Ghost]

You can attach look emotes, so it would look much better.

I mean, sure you don't want it to be like:  
"The hot blonde super sexy woman looks at you".

Instead you can:

"The hot blonde, super sexy woman looks at you briefly, her gaze passing over the occupants at ~bar"

So it is just a brief glance, and it is very normal to glancingaround people in a tavern.

Or on the opposite end, you might want to look intensely, and pick up their attention, it still works.

I enjoy look echo.  It is just that, if there is no emote attached to it and if you are looking everyone in the tavern, it looks.... dull?  So it is up to the player to manipulate the way s/he looks.

[Agent_137]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13989&highlight (latest one)

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13513 (got locked eventually)

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=138132#138132 (links to three more)

ok, so that's more than three. good stuff.

[LauraMars]

To make another point, we have the emote system.  It is so rich and detailed and gorgeous and fluid what we can do with emotes in this game.  We can stare at someone intently without trying to puzzle our way around how to tack that onto the end of "looks at you" in a way that seems interesting and interactive.  We don't need the look echo to add atmosphere, and I just don't see why it makes sense otherwise.

Oh, and I'm sorry to clutter your forum, Agent, but I don't see what harm there is in discussing this again.  Everything else about Zalanthas gets discussed over and over again anyway.  There have been at least three threads about the correct way to play half-elves since I started in august, and a new one was just made the other day.  We haven't had a LOOK ECHO thread for six months!  So cut me some slack, jack.  After all, do we have anything better to do?  Not bloody likely.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

The look echo is from Armageddon's diku mud core, where HnS was the original code design. We all know the average HnS diku isn't famous for its look emotes, or any emotes at all where RP is concerned, and so for a HnS game, the look echo adds some atmosphere to a game otherwise empty of any real emotes besides the stock socials. As far as a game like Armageddon is concerned, I'm of the opinion that this echo is completely outdated for the times, and has been for many years, just as the "listen" skill echo was outdated with having an echo where you char kneels by the floor and puts their ear to the ground. Why the look echo hasn't been removed by now has always left me a little confused. What does it add to the game?

It adds three things to the game:

1) it lets your char be aware of every single glance from a PC or NPC that isn't actively trying to hide from sight, with 100% accuracy
2) it lets your char know if you've failed the hide skill
3) if you're sure you're hidden (or invis), it lets you know the person looking at you has the scan skill, and that their scan skill is higher than your hide skill

None of these things sound like a positive contribution to the game, to me.

We have plenty of emote tools to convey one PC looking at another PC, in ways that are far more flexible than the tagged text of the look command. The old diku MUD days are gone, and the look echo is just a holdout from the original code. Being unable to avoid committing your char to several lines of look spam, forcing them to very visibly make eye contact with every PC they examine, just doesn't seem realistic, nor does it seem to contribute anything positive to the roleplay experience.

[Puppet]

I came from an RPI where there wasn't an echo, so adjusting to this has been a little bit difficult. My old habits were to emote looking and then to look... and now I smack myself every time I do that because they get:

The tall girl glances subtly down the bar at you with a passing glance. (emote)

The tall girl looks at you. (actual command because I just realized that even though I emoted looking at them I still have to codedly look or I'll have no idea what they look like and they're going to get another echo. By this point I'm embarrased and don't feel like tacking on another echo.)

So, in cconclusion... I'd rather see it removed for my own, personal, selfish reasons, but I'm hoping some other people can come up with some other convincing ideas.

[Dracul]

Down with the look echo burn it!

[Agent_137]

I'm not bitching about you rezzing an old discussion, hell, it's a DISCUSSION forum.

I just hate to see another THREAD about it. Just look over the other threads so you understand what's already been said, and then add your perspective to one of them.

I do hate to see the same points made over and over again. Which is why i'm not going to check this thread anymore.

[moab]

I'm not bitching about you rezzing an old discussion....I do hate to see the same points made over and over again.

*blink*

[Northlander]

Another one against the look echo, here. We might keep the command, and have it so that it's only if you append an emote to the look that it goes to the room.

A second idea would be the 'glance' command suggested elsewhere, which would give you a fellow's itemlist, or parts of it, but not his mdesc. This'd solve the issue with antsy raiders, while giving enough information to not have everyone acting blind.

We shouldn't have to click through 'l man's cloak; l man's aba; l man's robe; l man's pad' until we come across something matching a keyword. It'd possibly work if every House's insignia shared a keyword, making it a quick check, but it's silly until then, and this full look-over feels in any case tantamount to 'l man'.

It's an excellent point to bring back up, new thread or not. The locked thread hadn't a staff stance in it. Are there reasons against changing the current that haven't come up? Is it on some list of things to do?

[Cale Knight]

So I took the bus into campus today. It was about half full and I grabbed a seat in the back. Starting at the front, I took a few seconds to glance at every single person, noting what they were wearing and their general features.

Who wants to take bets on whether or not anyone noticed me? And why should they have? I wasn't doing anything particularly invasive and certainly wasn't doing anything noticable. Just looking.

Another vote for getting rid of the echo.

[Packersfan]

What is with people? 50% of the players in this game do not respect their virtual surroundings, yet they go up in arms about look. This statement is in no way shape or form in response to the poster, it is just my personal statement.

Now, to the poster: I feel as though it could go either way, but please look at all the people you want to. If your character is alert, and looks around, then god damnit look at everybody. I would really reccommend throwing an emote with your look, for rp sake. But honestly, do not let fools discourage you from doing what your character would do. I have been in a Tavern where a heated ooc conversation breaks out with five people, so almost nobody has the right to tell you not to look.

[bloodfromstone]

I, personally, have no problems with the look echo. I look at everyone indiscriminately, whether or not my character sees them or not. I want to know what the scene looks like, I want to know if the person happens to be in a strange state that my character should notice (I.e. naked, 12 feet tall, on fire, etc).

While I don't think the look echo is necessary, I wouldn't let it keep you from looking at people, Laura. Look at everyone! More than once if you feel the need. Tag appropriate emotes onto your looks and anyone who still wants to complain will forgive you in time, I'm sure.

[da mitey warrior]

Let me be the bold one and stand up for the look echo.  The look echo is important because it's a basic interaction between characters.

Granted, it's a very basic interaction, but it is an important building block.  Seeing that a character looking at you does show that you have been noticed, that the person is not an inanimate npc or idling, and it is an invite to interact with them in some way...even if it is just a passing emote about how you wrinkle your nose at their elfishness, give them a nod of respect, leer at them or whatnot.  

There are other RPIs and they do not have the look emote, and I've found those games are much more difficult to get involved in RP; players are more likely to just ignore you and the game overall feels much more cliquish.  This despite the game having a similar style of play, a similar sized (and partly overlapping) player base, and about equal turnover of characters.  

I'm not saying the look echo makes or breaks a game, it's just a helpful building block for character interactions and we should keep it.

[rishenko]

One of the hardest things I've found in dealing with looks and such is in making sure that spatial relations are kept in check.  If you're at a bar, back to the entrance of a tavern, you're not going to see somebody looking at you.  You probably won't even see half the stuff going on in the tavern lest you look over your shoulder or the other patrons do something loud or obnoxious enough to get your character's attention.  

If somebody looks at you and makes a face or some gesture, and your back is to them, it's not hard to do something like:

Code Select Expand

emote shifts comfortably in his seat, his back to ~onlooker.

All in all the look echo doesn't bother me.  If my character is in a position to notice the look, he/she will.  If not, they ignore it.

[Anonymous]

Perhaps add another command, or even a skill.

For example, if you'll use 'look' command, you'll get every bit of detail out of the person you're looking at and it'll give an echo and make the person aware that you're staring. But if you use 'glance' command, then all you'll get is their basic description, and some portions of clothing, such as cloaks, symbolic thingies, basically things that demonstrate rank and position, but remain undetected by those you're glancing at. There might even be perception based skills that increase how much you can 'glimpse', or if you can detect being glanced at.

Truth is, often enough I do 'not' look at people, because I do not want to appear staring, or do not want to appear as a twink singling out PCs out of a crowd of vnpcs, but by this I miss out on details that I 'should' be aware of, simply by glancing on the crowd. Details that 'stand out' from the crowd, such as for example militia uniform and so on. Something you cant spot without looking at them directly, should their hood for example be lowered.

[Agent_137]

look amos with a nonchalant glance.


there. all your troubles have been solved!


Unless you're one of those people who go into convulsions when multiple people look at your character in a short time span. If that's the case, TAKE YOUR PILLS.

p.s.
a glance command has been suggested before that just shows the equipment that a normal look would provide, and without the main desc. It wouldn't be unbalancing, and while it's similar to "peek" it provides none of the real advantages of "peek."

Of course, this would make "look" much more serious and unpleasent as you know they'd be taking interest in your main desc. And this would shift things some.

All in all, i don't think a glance command would destroy roleplay, but I sure as hell don't think it'd provide enough advantages to even bother coding.

p.p.s

DAMNIT. I said i'd stay out of this thread. And then I forgot because i haven't checked the boards in awhile. you fuckers, tricking me like that.

go read the old threads.

[jhunter]

Unless you're one of those people who go into convulsions when multiple people look at your character in a short time span. If that's the case, TAKE YOUR PILLS.

Lol, that's how I feel sometimes when you look at someone and they flip out. You get: "Got a fucking problem kankfucker? Stop staring at me"

:roll:

[Tamarin]

Yeah I agree.

On the flipside, I also get annoyed when people assume your PC has noticed theirs just because they looked at you, especially in a crowded tavern setting where you're sitting at the bar with your back to the door.

[Hexxaex]

I hate it when you look at someone with some sort of emote like "discreetly" or "for a split second" or "in 10^-56 seconds", and then all you get from them is "<person> looks at you."

[spawnloser]

To note, just because your look was 'discreet' doesn't mean that your appearance is.  Just because you reminded the player that you were there and the player used a command that echoes to you that s/he used this command...you're gonna flip out?  It's what we got.  The person can then proceed to ignore your character.  If the character gets all like jmordetsky was talking about with the, "What you lookin' at, bub?" attitude, then, yes, they're overreacting and possibly even roleplaying not so well.

The 'glance' command idea has been brought up MANY times now.  The staff knows that lots of players would like it in some form or another.  I'm sure it's been idea'd and is on the list the staff has, and when one of them has the time and gumption to get to it, they will.

In the meantime, chill, people.  Let it go.  Don't freak because someone looks at you.  Don't freak because it's spammy.  Don't not look at people because you're scared they're going to freak out.  This is what we have, live with it and learn not to be so uptight about the little things.  We'll get the good way when they want to and can.

[X-D]

First, as was already said, look echo is  basic interaction, it needs to stay just for that reason, if not, noobs would never know who was a PC.

Second, 90% of the time I add nothing to my PC's looks, because the echo tells exactly what he is doing, and I have no qualms at all about walking into a tavern with 20 PC's in it and looking at each and every one of them in turn. Mostly because thats exactly what I do IRL when I walk ino a bar, stop, let door close, look at everybody in my view then move to where I wish to sit. I notice most other people do it also, not even thinking.

Course, I'm not the type that thinks a look is much more then a glance, definitly not staring, most people will emote staring anyway.

And if my char glances at yours, hell, I won't even use the coded look, I'll simply emote glancing and be done with it.

[Maybe42or54]

I still love it when people walk into a bar at dusk and emote standing in front of the entrance and then they say something to me. Then get pissed off when I don't listen to them.

Am I elitest?