Noob mud trainning

[adrien]

I think it would be nice if we had another choice on the big old map.

a trainning ground for new players that never played arma or a mud where a program runs and tells you and gives examples on  how things run.

reading only goes so far, experience does the rest.


newb maps would be good where it reveals the starting city and where things are inside of it. after a few chars say 5 in that one city or so the map never is not spawned  on start up of a new char. But if you go to a new city starts from 0 in that one only.  think that would work?

[Xygax]

Who would you learn the ropes from, other newbies?

I definitely think that some very basic early tutorial areas would be a nice way to help people get introduced to our commands and some of the basic techniques for interacting with the game world and other players.  But nothing short of playing with others (hopefully veterans) can really help you "get" our mud.

Another thing that will help you out (and you already seem to be improving, somewhat, though it still seems worth mentioning) is to spend some time focusing on your typing, spelling, grammar, capitalization and overall usage of the English language.  We have many players who play from across the world, including countries like Turkey, Finland and others, and while perhaps they sometimes struggle, I'm sure that they also pride themselves on their command of language.  Furthermore, their efforts to improve are hugely appreciated.  I know my own Turkish is terrible!    In my opinion, the ability to evoke language is -core- to our RP environment, so whatever you need to do to improve, you should do it.  You'll improve quickly just from watching some of the veterans players, and there are also spell-checking MUD-clients out there.

-- X

[adrien]

ya my grammer is sucky unless I remind me self, I am so use to wrighting and talking like this that it comes natural. I wright so fast I dont notice my errors


been playing a while just figured instead of dropping new players in the game why not give them a save zone to put the codes and commands to practice
maby even an imm that can answer questions. but its just an idea I figured can be debated.

[Tamarin]

I think what Xygax said about interaction with veteran players is really important.  There are things that are best learned by actual examples, rather than some lame scripted tutorial (which reeks of shitty muds, imho).  I've almost never heard new players complain about how things are.  This may be because they leave and come back later when they are more mentally focused to tackle the syntax and feel of the game, and quite frankly I like it that way.  I'd rather they do that than putz around the game not having the first clue about what to do.

This is very much an adult game, and the average adult should be able to figure things out without having to be helped through a newbie zone.

Also, I like that extra bit of grittiness where if a new player doesn't get good control of the syntax and the general pace of the game right away, he or she is going to lose a few characters because of it.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

ThunderLord wrote:

CONTACT BREAK PSI

That's contact, cease, psi, by the way. I know, old habits are hard to break.
Erm, cease.
Anyway, I'm against this simply because tutorial areas in MUDs made me cringe. If there was a tutorial area in place when I first started playing Armageddon, I might've never stayed.
A tutorial area would be counter-intuitive, I think. It would give new players the impression that people in game are willing to help ease them along. That people will take it easy on them. This is very much not the case.

[EvilRoeSlade]

been playing a while just figured instead of dropping new players in the game why not give them a save zone to put the codes and commands to practice
maby even an imm that can answer questions. but its just an idea I figured can be debated.

No lie, adrien has been playing longer than I have.

As Xygax said, an optional tutorial to help with basic commands might go a long way to make Armageddon more user-friendly.

And also as Xygax said, learn to spell adrien, and the shift key besides.

Take care all.

[Nao]

I don't know what everyone has against a training zone... Lot's of shitty muds have it but if it helps newbies, why not? Both other rpis have a place where you can safely test commands and such and have someone explain to you how to put on armor and the like (as far as I know, it's more scripted tutorial in harshlands and more helpers to show new players aorund in an ooc place).
When I started mudding, I wasn't able to wear armor -  because I didn't know how to. Some time later on a hack and slash I couldn't figure out that the command to take something off is remove--- not undress, not unwear or something like that, remove. A lot of it is basic syntax, really, that veteran players can hardly terach you in game because they won't notice, those aren't in character problems.
Really, I think something brief to make you learn the basic commands... Nothing about the game world or things that would be in the docs, those things tha, like xygax said need tobe learned from veteran players. When I was new here, I met some REALLY helpless newbies and a safe training zone would have relly helped those, too. I've also had some newbies on aim, even converts from another mud and buying/selling seems to be a big problem because the syntaxc is unusual. Sure, there's helpfiles, but it'S hard to find a keyword if you don't know what to look for. My first char here died of frustration when I couldn't figure out how to 'leave' something.
I think you think of the wrong level of learning when you say that a tutorial are wouldn't be good. Things that would be learned in game can be learned in game. But some stuff is hard to figure out, exspecially when everyone stays in character and no one tajkes pity in that poor newbie and tells them oocly how to type things.
If you dislike the idea of a tutorial so much, then maybe a good helpfile that works as a guide through the basic commands all in one file would help... Just read it down and post a referance just at the start or something. What happened to our FAQ?  Am I right when I think that they will be put in with the website revamp? If I'm right, a link of those posted everyhwhere, int eh approvement email and then when they get in game would also be helpful.

[RunningMountain]

No.

-RM

[Bestatte]

What about...when you get to the hall of kings, you see a button in addition to the map. The button reads:

Push here for a list of basic commands and syntax if you are new to mudding, Diku, or Armageddon.

Then when you push it, you stay in the Hall of Kings and the list comes up.

talk (with or without emotes) Hello.
say (with or without emotes) Hello.
tell ugly (with or without emotes) Hello.
contact cease psi
help prompt
west with or without an emote, no parenthases
sit table (with or without an emote)
stand (with or without an emote)

The emote symbols
help emotes

enter/leave

look object/person with or without emotes, no parenthases

*Look Map When You Are Done and Ready To Enter The Game.*

------end------

[RunningMountain]

I think apps should be rejected like they used to. When I first started I got rejected 5-6 times in a row sometimes, it was a good learning experience.

[HardCarbon]

Or.. to expand.. give people a place they can go (say a test room) to practice their emoting rathing then doing it live.    Call it a practice room..  espically for bards and the like practicing your performance and having a script or macro go berserk cause you did it wrong is NOT something you want a watching IMM to see...

I think it would be nice if we had another choice on the big old map.

a trainning ground for new players that never played arma or a mud where a program runs and tells you and gives examples on  how things run.

reading only goes so far, experience does the rest.


newb maps would be good where it reveals the starting city and where things are inside of it. after a few chars say 5 in that one city or so the map never is not spawned  on start up of a new char. But if you go to a new city starts from 0 in that one only.  think that would work?

[Puppet]

Hmm... when I first began I went to "help newbie" and read the FAQ's. It didn't take very long and by doing that I got the very basic knowledge I needed to just play. Everything else I've learned has come with playing. Why is there such an aversion to the help files?  :?

[Cuusardo]

We don't need a newbie training area.  That's what the plethora of help files on the website is for.  It's wise to read them all and keep that help file page handy when you start playing.

[Akaramu]

I think apps should be rejected like they used to. When I first started I got rejected 5-6 times in a row sometimes, it was a good learning experience.

A friend I met in Eve-online made a character out of curiosity after I told him about Arm. He told me his character had weird dreams about scrap metal, and it was in his background.

He got approved.  

Too bad he doesnt have the time to play, he would have been a great addition.

And to the imm who read that scrap metal background, spilled coke over their keyboard laughing, and then hit the accept button... blame me.  :wink:

[Cale_Knight]

Seems to me that some of you guys are confusing IC harshness with OOC harshness.

Armageddon is an extremely newbie-unfriendly MUD. Yes, there are tons of helpfiles. So many that it can be overwhelming. Yes, there's a list of helpers - but that requires you to be willing to knock on a complete stranger's door, so to speak.

Yes, there's a newbie "ask the players" section, but some of you are elitist bastards who answer 90% of questions with "find out IC" or entirely unhelpful things like "Well, try thinking this through! What would your character..."

I'm totally for this idea. Anything to help attract new players. A newbie help zone won't take away from the MUD. Your character isn't suddenly going to be sucked into a vortex of OOCness because somewhere on the same port there's a mobprog teaching some guy the difference between tell and talk.

[LoD]

I think we need Armbot 2000.

Hall of Kings [NEWS]

Armbot 2000 has arrived from the north.

>say hi

You say, in sirihish:
   "hi"

Armbot 2000 says, in sirihish:
   "Welcome to the game!  Please follow me.  You have five seconds to comply."

>say how?

You say, in sirihish:
   "how?"

Armbot 2000 says, in sirihish:
   "You have 3 seconds to comply."

>say i am new =)

You say, in sirihish:
   "i am new =)"

Armbot 2000 says, in sirihish:
   "Time elapsed.  Failure to comply.  Welcome to Armageddon!"

Armbot 2000 extends its left arm, a bone spike firing into your skull.

<mantis head>

>connect to mud
You have mail.
>m
You have 1 unread mail.
>r mail
>Please review the follow command.  "help follow"  See you soon!
 Love, Armbot 2000.

[bloodfromstone]

You couldn't have said it better, Cale. I've been astonished and even occasionally offended by how people have treated perfectly valid (even if tired) newbie questions, complaints, and problems since I started. I frequently wonder if people actually want more players, since there seems to be no lack of attempts to drive them away.

[sarahjc]

I am just all about posting up old links today, mostly it's because I'm lazy and don't feel like typing the same stuff again.

But here is another great link on cool newbie discussion.

[Larrath]

I don't really see how a newbie zone could help the game that much.

What we need is more accessible documentation.  Optimize our priorities and prioritize our optimizations!  Ride our kanks and kank the riders!

We need a new Great Merchant House.  Merchant House Fubar.  And House Fubar will sell links to the Helpers page.
If a player with potential reaches a Helper, most of the time they're set.  We can help them on the way with basic questions, answers and advice.  Tell people that they can do card tricks, -not- amazing feats of magick and illusion, and so on and so forth.

Perhaps we could have a tiny 'mini Tuluk' and 'mini Allanak' areas, where players don't actually play but rather move around the miniaturized city and read about it.  The entire city could have twenty rooms or so, and would look something like this:

.               3           4         5                   14
.                                6
. 2    X      X     7    X
.               1               8
.                                         10             11  
.               8
.                                12                            13
1 - Gaj
2 - West Gate (Devotions)
3 - Elementalist's Quarter
4 - The 'rinth
5 - Byn Compound
6 - Bazaar
7 - Dragon Temple
8 - Trader's Inn
9 - Barrel
10 - Arena
11 - Atrium
12 - Templar's Quarter
13 - Noble's Quarter
14 - Merchant's Quarter

Each 'room' would be simply some text explaning what happens in it, and who goes there.  The Templar's Quarter, for example, would say that this is where the jail is and ordinary people stay out of there out of penalty of very painful death, while the Atrium room could explain how Aides work, and the Merchant's Quarter would explain crafters and such.

This seems the most practical and helpful.  When people point at Allanak or Tuluk on a map, they'd be asked whether they want to see the minimized version first.

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

Documents rank very highly as a anti-newbie method on my list, but they do prove more useful as I play along. Yet, they are the ones that invoke starting interest as well. A good read will convince people the mud is worth time spent on, till they tried it out and know for themselves. More accessible light reading will help [where reading just those will enable one to start out in the game]

I just tried Harshlands, the amount of reading got to me.... I feel strongly about documents :p

So what problems does the mud has attracting people to it?

What are the problems that newbies face when they first enter armageddon?

What are the problems that they face that makes them decide, " THIS MUD SUCKS!"?

I have a feeling we share players between Isildur, Armageddon and maybe Harshlands.

[amoeba]

I've been astonished and even occasionally offended by how people have treated perfectly valid (even if tired) newbie questions, complaints, and problems since I started. I frequently wonder if people actually want more players, since there seems to be no lack of attempts to drive them away.

I agree as well.  

Some of the wonderfull(yes this is sarcasm) advice heard so far.

No.

Yep, that was the entire post.

Also, I like that extra bit of grittiness where if a new player doesn't get good control of the syntax and the general pace of the game right away, he or she is going to lose a few characters because of it.

:shock:

I think apps should be rejected like they used to. When I first started I got rejected 5-6 times in a row sometimes, it was a good learning experience.

:roll:

Here is the bottom line, we would like more people to play.  Not because Arm is a bad place to play now, it isn't, it's great, but because it could be a better place.  We have remained static in our numbers for sometime. Obviously we are still getting some new people or the numbers would be declining, but whatever we are doing or not doing is not raising that number.

Yes, we have wonderfull documentation, but I would venture to say most people do not do extensive research to see if they will like the place, most people want to look about a bit before they invest thier precious time to studying the place.  

Yes, we have helpers, but I understand the mindset of not wating to IM, or email a stranger and ask questions that would make me look stupid.  God forbid I ask a question here, some folks revel in making people look stupid.  

Again discuss openly ideas that help to bring people in.  It would be nice to have a productive  dissussion with some effort to put forth ideas, not just blatently dissmis ideas with no constructive input.  And for those folks with an elitist additude, you can be elitist and be wrong at the same time.

Personaly I like the idea of mentors, not sure how the details would work out but it is interesting.  I don't care for newbie schools/tutorials.  I would like to see web tools brought back surch as the emote emulator, that was a very useful tool.   I even offered to write the damn thing once to no response.
[soapbox]

editied for typos, damn 5 point type in the edit window, I'm too old to see it well.

[Scarborough]

OK, short rant due to those quotes I just read above---^

I'm not new to mudding -- not by a long shot.  But THIS mud -still- makes me feel new at times.  When I came to Armageddon I was excited to find a game that focused on roleplay but quickly I became frustrated, put off, and annoyed by the pontificating, snobby, know-it-all people I came into contact with.  I was actually warned BEFORE coming to Arm, by a seasoned long-time player that snobbery was rampant here and to be prepared to figure it out mostly on my own.  And the elitest attitudes often found on this dicussion board were even worse when I came here to search and read.  "Helpful players" were often more eager to tell me that what I was doing was wrong in a sassy way and to go read help files and get it right than they were to offer help in a simple way.  There was the "helpers" list but I don't like inviting just anybody to add me to their IMs -- I'm cautious that way.  I'm still put off by attitudes in the game at times.  

The snobbery, elitest attitudes don't help this mud draw new people.  It's not something emanating from ALL the players, but it only takes a handful of snobs to color the mud-world that way.    I go out of my way to help other newbies having trouble with basic commands regardless of how many ooc's I have to do.  It's not fair to tell those people "go to another stock mud, figure it out and then come back."  That would be like me telling one of my students to go take music lessons from somebody else and come back when they're advanced players -- I wouldn't have anybody in my studio because parents would be completely put off.   Those quotes make me ill -- It's absolutely immoral to revel in a newbie's struggling.  People coming up with comments like that are rude and probably have insecurity issues in real life since they have to come to a mud to bully or berate newbies to feel powerful and part of the "clique".  I used to ban those obnoxious people on my mud.  

So, I digress...  those quotes got me riled.  I agree that having a training area would -really- benefit this game and help new people figure it out and not feel so insecure.  It would be especially helpful those new to mudding in general.  Those new to Armageddon, which is certainly not like most muds, but familiar with other muds would benefit with a quick stop in training land as well.  Those arguing that a newbie wouldn't learn anything from a training area without interaction with real PC's are mistaken.  Mobprograms are powerful and if this is really a mud based roughly on diku/rom code (though to me it looks an awful lot like a java/coffeemud and not diku at all), there's no limits to what you can have a mob do, say, watch for, be triggered by, etc.  Well planned mobprogs can guide even the most hapless newbie into the beginnings of understanding how to mud.  I've built training areas and mobprogs that do just that and they were very effective -- I had almost no problems with newbies after that training area, no gimping, no spamming and they got right into roleplaying.  A training area would insure that new players wouldn't have to deal with curt  or disgusted comments from impatient players who feel their environment and illusion is just being shattered.  A training area would insure that players clinging to their fantasy illusion who don't want it disrupted in any way WON'T have to worry about newbies spoiling their fun.

*steps off her soap box*

[Scarborough]

Oh yeah, one more thing.  There are such a VAST number of documents to be read.  Who wants to read all that for days, weeks and THEN play?  A person wants to get in the mud, see what it's like, decide if they like it.  I agree 100% that the documentation is overwhelming to a new player.  It overwhelmed me.  I find the documentation MORE helpful now that  I've been playing a while.  

I'd definitely say that the documentation, while excellent and thorough, would put newbie's off.

[Puppet]

I'd definitely say that the documentation, while excellent and thorough, would put newbie's off.

I disagree. "Help Newbie" lumps together some FAQ's and several files that are vital to learning the basics of play. They aren't massive, and they don't take hours to read. I'm not suggesting newbies pour through every shred of documentation before submitting a character. I'm simply saying the basics are already laid out for them in an easy to read and access manner.

Help Newbie!

[Cale_Knight]

I disagree. "Help Newbie" lumps together some FAQ's and several files that are vital to learning the basics of play.

Yeah! There's only thirty-two files in help newbie.

For the love of Pete, if a new player doesn't have the time or patience to read  through the thirty-two files in help newbie along with the 10 links on the introductory information page on the main site, what business does he have in this game?

[/sarcasm]

PS - And he'd better read all fifty-one files mentioned under "help character," or he might as well just run head-long into a scrab right now.

And the thirty-two files mentioned in "help communication."

And the twenty under "help items."

The twenty-seven under "help combat."

..where was I going with this?

[Puppet]

Yes, but each helpfile isn't a composed essay. I read over them in about 30 minutes and left the window up behind my MUD client as I played for easy access.  I still do that for all the %^~! emote commands, as I've not got them nailed down yet. The helpfiles are there for a reason. This is a text-based mud, I don't think asking people to spend a half an hour reading up on the basics is asking too much.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Or.. to expand.. give people a place they can go (say a test room) to practice their emoting rathing then doing it live.

change locdescs

Call it a practice room.. espically for bards and the like practicing your performance and having a script or macro go berserk cause you did it wrong is NOT something you want a watching IMM to see...

Do we really want bards macroing their performances?
Anyway, as I said before, I don't want a newbie area because I, personally, don't want a newbie area. The lack of a newbie area, and the enormous amount of documentation, is what made me stay here in the first place. Instead of saying that the help files aren't newbie friendly, consider that maybe you simply don't like them. Like I simply don't like training areas.
Take that for what you will.

[amoeba]

I agree, I don't really want to see a training area in game.  Many eons ago I stated it was the anthesis of what this mud is about.  I still stand by that.

On the other hand, I would like to see training/practice tools offsite, on the website.  At its most basic, the emote emulator.  I know when I was a newbie, I never used helpers, but I used it a lot.  I'm a little confused as to why it is not there.  Even a simple javascript/php/java interactive walkthrough on the website could prove helpful to some people.  For the purists holding thier fingers up in the sign of a cross right now, it is simply documentation, just interactive documentation.  I fail to see how in any fashion it would detract from the game.

Providing different ways for people to learn about both how to interact with the game and what the game feels like allows people to pick a method that they are comfortable with.  Some people love helpers, if fact I am sure that some folks have probably worn the helpers out.  Some folks will read documentation exhuastivly before trying a single command.  Some will simply put caution to the wind and stumble through as they learn "on the job".  Now some people like to be trained, to be shown the basics. We all know them, in fact I'm sure a number of people have done this with thier friends and significant others.  Providing a simple off line walkthrough provides for those people who like the training but don't have a buddy standing over their shoulder.

[Agent_137]

[didn't read the whole thread]

I see the newbie issue rooted the difficulty if "installing:"

Webpage: Hello! You've found a simple, unassuming mud. Remember, we're RPI! Read some docs before you play, ok?

Game: Hey kid. Make your character. What do you mean you don't have a background written up? GOSH. Ok fine. That'll do. Check back tomorrow. Read some docs.

Webpage: Oh, you're here to read some docs? Well, there's a lot.

Game (the next day): *snicker* The newb doesn't realize that to leave some buildings you type "north" but other buildings you have to type "leave." *MANTIS HEAD*

Newbie: This is too fucking hard. /quit




So unless the newbie comes looking for an RPI mud with permadeath (like I did), he's not likely to put up with all the difficulty of getting into this mud.

The quickstart is a great leap forward, but recall we've only had that thing for less than a year. Make it BIGGER on the webpage, sling it around in character creation. And, krath, make a bigger deal about the helpers page. I always have to dig to find it, imagine how difficult it is to find that for a newbie.


Helpers are the key to new players. So make the link BIGGER and on the front page. Hell, make a graphic and slam it on there. I don't care if it messes up the fucking symmetry.

[amoeba]

Helpers are the key to new players. So make the link BIGGER and on the front page. Hell, make a graphic and slam it on there. I don't care if it messes up the fucking symmetry.]

Helpers are not a panacea.  Without being impolite it is helpful if you read all the posts before posting, I know I do.  I know I dislike using helpers, always have, always will.

[Agent_137]

Ok, granted, so we need big ass buttons for the different ways people like to learn:

Quickstart

Helpers

Walkthrough

Whatever.

I think it's vital that we USE the space on the index page better. How often do regulars look at it? I know i never go to www.armageddon.org, and if I do, i just immediately dive in for the particular doc i'm looking for. You have to figure that most of the hits are from newbies. It's the FIRST thing newbies see. We need to make better use of it, and I think "better use" means "BIG HELPFUL BUTTONS."

[Cuusardo]

Back when I was introduced to the game (by spawnloser and malifaxis) I was not allowed by either of them to even submit a character until I'd read all the help files and documentation.

As a helper, I try to make myself as available as possible, and be as friendly and helpful as possible to newbies.  I've gotten emails from newbies who were afraid to start playing, who were overwhelmed, and I gave them as much information and advice as I could in hopes that it would help them, even if only a little.  I WANT new people to come into the game.  I WANT people to come to me for help, and I WANT to answer their questions so that they feel more comfortable.  I am willing to bet that most if not all of the other helpers feel the same way I do.

[amoeba]

As a helper, I try to make myself as available as possible, and be as friendly and helpful as possible to newbies.  I've gotten emails from newbies who were afraid to start playing, who were overwhelmed, and I gave them as much information and advice as I could in hopes that it would help them, even if only a little.  I WANT new people to come into the game.  I WANT people to come to me for help, and I WANT to answer their questions so that they feel more comfortable.  I am willing to bet that most if not all of the other helpers feel the same way I do.

I don't think anyone dissagrees with the value of either Helpers or Documentation.  Me I like helping people.   Helpers are a very valuble tool, for those that will go to them.  Me I don't use helpers, I read documentation and struggle on my own. Thats me.  One thing I have learned over the years is that there are many different approaches to how people learn or try out new things. I have met many who would not use helpers.  I have also learned through painfull experience that most people don't read (at least initially) documentation.  This does not mean that these people can not turn into pretty good, and enjoyable roleplayers, not to mention very active. I've seen it, hell I'm related to one (sorry dear).

The crux of my arguement is this.  When presented with a persistaint problem, namly the need to grow our user count, restating the mantra "If it was good enough for me, it's good enough for everyone else" is counterproductive.   Options are useful, so long as they don't destroy the integrity of the game we all enjoy. Keep the game pure, you'll have no arguement from me.  But to gain players you need to take into account other personality types and different approaches to attract and retain these users.  One thing we are very poor at is grabbing the attention of the casual shopper type.  I've seen the arguement put forth that we don't want these people, that they would make weak roleplayers. I find that arguement rather on the lame side, smacking of sour grapes.

Personally I'm a bit perplexed at some of the viseral attacks on ideas about attracting and retaining players.   As someone stated earlier, it would seem that we really don't want new people.  I've probably stated way too much on the subject as it is, but just remember, the world is not all 20 something college students. There is a huge world of talanted, fun people we could attract if we could figure out how to get their attention.  Thinking outside of the box is a good start to doing this.

[LauraMars]

I don't like using the helpers.

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

I dislike the idea of newbie zones, it's the mudding elitism in me. And I've only mudded for like one-two years. But if it helps to get that one more person into the mud, I'm all for it.

Not being a coder of any sorts, I think it's stock and an easy addition to the world, nothing coders worry about. So the problem here is not whether the coding is easy or not, but rather if a newbie zone is useful/detrimental to the mud and if the cons outweigh the pros.

Newbie zones help to orientate people, we have helpers for that too. Newbie zones allow people to tryout the mud without looking at too much grey text. I assure you, if you come from muds with all sorts of colour and brief, massive grey blocks of text is a real culture shock. It's the same way round, if you come from a grey text world, colours are a turn off till you get used.
Newbie zones should be a world of its own, totally separated from the real one, its main aim to assimilate new players into the mud.
Newbie rooms should not be too wordy, maybe place them at description caps of 4-5.

Note: I just realised what really turned me off in the midst of this post. The application process that forces me to wait for 24 hours at least before application. And then I die.

Before we all start coming out with "HA. we don't need that kind of players if they can't wait for 24 hours, it ruins the game otherwise." talk, I ask of you the world we are in. Fast food, 10-min haircuts, a train/tram/bus every few mins, recesses of half-hour, lunchtime of one hour, the world is fast paced and we are used to it. There are oodles of potential players out there, players that can grow to be very good, but because they lack the initial interest/patience, we lose them for good. I ramble.

The newbie zone can negate away the need to wait for an application. It can be used to teach quick description/backgrounds etc like some of the muds do. Enter a room, make a instant description/background and there you are. OF course, to enter the real world, they still have to wait for an application. But perhaps things can be changed that if the immortals notice that while in the newbie zone, they have a rather good description/background/whatever the application needs, they can be assimilated into the real one.

I'm not making a pro/con list though, just saying how newbie zones might help.

I don't like using the helpers.

I don't speak with helpers much, it means I have to *gasp* interact with real people. Except at the beginning when I was trying walking around the OOC board and decided all the grey text is making me dizzy.

They helped though, having friendlies about helps strangers [people strange to the world] to feel comfortable enough to try and try.[/u]

edited to add: How weird, I just wanted to reply to LauraMars's post and decided I don't want to be indicted for going off thread and the whole rambling came.

[Cuusardo]

What is so bad about using the helpers, really?  Are you afraid to ask another person for help?  Are you afraid that we'll bite?  Most of us only bite upon request.

[Angela Christine]

What is so bad about using the helpers, really?  Are you afraid to ask another person for help?  Are you afraid that we'll bite?  Most of us only bite upon request.

I HATE asking people for help in any context.  I'll Google the hell out of a topic, even go look in a real library with books and things before I will ask a person for help.  For some reason asking a whole group of people, as on a discussion board, isn't as bad as asking a person for help -- perhaps because when you ask a group every member of that group can easily ignore you if they want to.

It is just a general lifestyle preference.  When I buy a new piece of software, even a game, I usually read a significant portion of the manual before loading it -- then if I have trouble I look in the manual or for guides on the internet, I don't ask my friends for help unless things get desperate.  My jaw dropped the day I heard Oprah mention that she gets lots of letters from people asking her for money, I can't even imagine writing to a stranger to ask for help with my problems, it is mind boggling.  I don't want to bother anyone.

So as a newbie I struggled to find my answers in the documentation.  As I got a little karma and tried out roles that are deliberately not well documented I soldiered on alone, making my own mistakes and hoping for the best.  The one time I tried to play a Templar I was totally dieing after the first couple weeks, and there are a couple Helpers who probably could have offered tips, but I couldn't even ask my clan Imms if it would be ok to ask a Helper for help.  Heck, even my requests to staff for help were sufficiently subtle or unclear to make it easy for them to ignore or miss if they weren't reading my emails and clan posts really, really carefully.  Asking individuals for help is just uncomfortable for me, and for some other people.  It feels like being a panhandler, bugging people for spare change.

At times I would rather quit playing entirely or stab myself repeatedly with a rusty spork than ask for help.  I am not the only one who feels that way (well, except maybe the spork part).  A segment of the population will not ask the helpers for help, no matter how attractively the helper option is presented.  Go figure.


Angela Christine

[LoD]

One of the issues is the degree of information a new player needs.

It's difficult to make a comprehensive document that helps a player understand MUD commands, RP concepts and world explanations without cutting it up into several sections, thus making it a long read.  I've always tried to help newbies out when I see them in game, and I've written some of the newbie walkthrough documentation.

I don't believe a "newbie" area within the game is the right vehicle to pursue if people really need an interface to learn the game.  When I was writing my documentation, I thought that it'd be nice to have a general walkthrough that actually took a newbie through steps to get food, water, gear and find a tavern that they could refer to while they played.

A document that began exactly where they would begin in the game, and take them room-by-room to merchants, food and water vendors and a tavern while teaching them the most basic of actions.  The document could also contain a very simplistic ascii map of key places any citizen of the area would know: taverns, marketplace, common area, off limits area.

This way the character could log into the game, bring up the document (or print it out) and walk through the few basic steps of the game so they didn't have to depend on anyone to find a bar, get gear, food, water and some basic game information.  You'd need to keep it updated in case something changed in the game that interrupted or changed the instructions, but it may be something helpful for people to have as a quick reference.

-LoD

[Agent_137]

That's a good idea, a more extensive walkthrough would serve most of the purposes of a "noobie area," without the same stigma.

[LauraMars]

What is so bad about using the helpers, really?  Are you afraid to ask another person for help?  Are you afraid that we'll bite?  Most of us only bite upon request.

I don't like using people, as if they were objects to be discarded later.  My soap opera days are over.  I have morals, dammit.

Really though, I dislike bothering people, just totally out of the blue, to help me.  Yeah, that's the idea.  But I don't feel comfortable with it, and that's that.  I don't fear anybody biting, it's the internet.  You can't bite on the internet, silly.    

However, I would like to thank marko, who hauled my blundering newbie butt to social safety in-game and spent 20 minutes going over mechanics and things with me.  And it's that, more than anything, that really gave me a good impression of the game and has caused me to stick around. I otherwise might have left because of the occasional...uh, clique-ishness and general asshattery.

In response to the OP, and whoever else said they want a newbie room so the new kids can practice emoting...just another idea to add.  When I first started, I practiced emotes on my backpack in an apartment or private room.  I also used myself to practice emotes on.  The echos are strange but you do get a general feel, and the more you do it, the more comfortable you are with the system.  I don't know if this is an imm-condoned action or not, but there it is.  I did it.  I learned from it.  It was great practice.

change ldesc is oocly practicing her emotes on this backpack

Wrapping her arms around ^backpack leathern straps and pulling !backpack close, @ emote passionately kisses ~backpack, with tongue!

[Agent_137]

there used to be an emote practicing program on the website, but I can't find it now.

[Cale_Knight]

I've yet to read a single good argument against the idea of a newbie area other than "MUDs with newbie areas are teh suck!"

As to helpers, I don't like them because I don't like to give away my AIM screen name or email address to people I don't know. Yes, you can use the board's PM system, but that's not a quick solution at all.

Eventually I got frustrated enough with a few things that I went looking for a helper on AIM. I basically scrolled down the list and added people until I found one who was both online and at his computer. When I got the answers I needed, I deleted everyone from my list. The helper I spoke to was perfectly nice and very helpful, but I didn't enjoy the experience.

And an offline walkthrough is about as useful to learning the game as trying to learn a language is without ever speaking it or listening to it.

[amoeba]

there used to be an emote practicing program on the website, but I can't find it now.

It's been gone for sometime. I'm not sure why, although I do think it was hosted offsite by someone I'm not sure is here anymore.

[marko]

I'm a believer that we don't necessarily need a newbie zone so much as a rewritten part of the website dedicated to newbies.  Armageddon has a wealth of documentation and information that we slowly absorb over time.

The process of a newbie joining Arm is a difficult one - mainly because the information is scattered everywhere and when you find it is not condusive for a newbie to sit down and read.  But beyond just reading - they need to retain.

I'd like to see newbie logs, more of the "what you know" pages, more RP logs, and finally more Arm fiction that is correct in its portrayal of the game world.  

If all of this information was in a single location and arranged in a manner that a new player could go through step by step and A) become excited about playing and B) learn the game world I think that would help.

My own thought is that the newbie site would intersperse color commentary (ie, Arm fiction) amongst all the documentation.  The basic commands would be explained and there would be unaltered logs (including all the commands) of your first log-in to Allanak and to Tuluk.  This way a newbie could read the log, learn where to go to buy basic gear, and learn the commands.  Those who wouldn't want this could just pass on by to the next section.

Armageddon is a great game but it is definitely not newbie friendly.  The community is abrasive and maintains a feeling of 'elitism' while the documentation is simply overwhelming.  If a newbie could be isolated from the majority of the community while they are getting their feet wet I think that would help.  

I find the hardest thing about Arm after you learn the syntax is learning the cultures of the different locations.  Right now, I don't think we're doing a good enough job at explaining the basic precepts of the various geographical locations and their regional cultures.  I say this because all too often I see people in one location or another going directly against what the documentation says; for example, in Tuluk we see people brawling or publically discussing magickers while in Allanak we see merchants who think they are better than nobles, muls that carry weapons without permit, etc etc.  Currently, more so in Tuluk than in Allanak since it seems that a lot of people have begun playing in Tuluk without reading its documentation and are just making assumptions based on experiences in Allanak (or elsewhere in the game world).  Please, if you are playing a Tuluki character take a few moments and reread the Tuluki documentation.

Usually people are doing these things because they saw others do them (sometimes someone purposefully playing the "exception" to the rule which is why I dislike it so much when someone purposefully sets out to be the exception role) and it escalates.  They don't realize what they are doing is contrary to the documentation and the culture of the location they are in or just plain wrong.  

Therefore, somewhere along the line, we are failing in assisting people learn how the game world is and what is available in terms of the huge wealth of culture.  Armageddon is one of the most mature games out there in terms of developed and defined cultures, geographical differences, and disctinct social roles.  A lot of effort by the immortal staff and players has gone into creating this world - but somewhere along the line we're not getting the feel out to the community as a whole.  

I think this dropping of the proverbial ball is occuring when a newbie joins the game and doesn't become fully immersed and thus begins to create their own views within the void they experience.  They watch what is around them and react accordingly - for example, in Tuluk (since it's easy to point to Tuluk's situation at the moment), a newbie comes in and sees people being polite to one another at all times and then assumes everyone in Tuluk is huggy / feely and therefore their character becomes that way.  The next character created in Tuluk is created that way - and now the role is played more confidently... and thus we end up with a city full of huggables and loveables who don't seem to do anything other than snuggle with one another.

Therefore to stem this tide I think we, as established players, need to take some time and reread the documentation of the locations we are playing in.  I know I'll be putting aside my spare time I was going to log in for to rereading the docs - I often forget or lose track of important points so I go back to the docs regularly.  At the same time, we need to figure out an easier method for newbies to become acclimatized to the game world without introducing misconceptions.

[LoD]

And an offline walkthrough is about as useful to learning the game as trying to learn a language is without ever speaking it or listening to it.

I would actually say this would be about as useful as directions on how to build a bookcase.  It's not exactly chinese, now is it?  These are common concepts that we're talking about in an environment in which someone may have limited or no experience.

The document I have in mind would be a room-for-room walkthrough of a new player entering the game to help them navigate between a few important locations (i.e. armor, weapons, clothing, food, water, inn).  This would allow someone to at least bookmark some of the more critical locations they'll want/need in the beginning while allowing them to interact directly with the game and its players.

It should be easy to follow because every room they enter would appear in their walkthrough, creating an easy to use tool.  Perhaps taking a look at something like this before condemning it would make sense.

-LoD

[Medena]

I think an optional area you could practise in for a while before pointing to your starting town would be wonderful.  Make it optional. Don't call it "Noob School".  Don't make it some smurf dancing around and calling out dumb things.  I think that should be enough to remove the stigma that newbie schools often have.

When I started out two years ago, I know I would have welcomed a risk-free place where I could try out some of the trickier syntax of emotes stuff, tried sitting at a table and talking at it, entering/leaving stuff, tried talking with an NPC, etc. etc.

I say "risk-free" because when I started out I was so terrified of making a terrible blunder and spoiling the rarefied RP atmosphere of Armageddon, that I spent my first 10 days, totally avoiding contact with other PC's! I lurked around observing how other people did things and furtively tried emotes and whatnot on NPC's till I felt a bit braver.

And I was an experienced mudder of 10 years, had played in RP muds before, had spent 2 days reading the docs and even had the friend who'd convinced me to try Arm to ask questions to on ICQ.

Arm can be daunting, even to experienced mudders.  An air of RP elitism pervades the GDB, not so much in answering questions from newbies, but more in judgmental attitudes like "real RP'ers don't RP sex" or comments like "such and such is bad RP" or threads like "Dumbest sdescs I've ever seen". I remember reading a post at the time I started where someone said they didn't want to have their gaming time spoiled by getting stuck having to help out some newbie IG. That post combined with, on my very first night, seeing someone OOC in the Gaj a scathing comment correcting someone on how they did something made me pretty scared of screwing up!

Arm has a lot of really unique code and somewhere to practise it and get a feel for it before actually starting would be just an awesome addition.

[O]

Ok, here's a long ramble about my personal experience of being a newbie in this game. To give you a glimpse into my perspective, I'd only played one other mud apart from this before (apart from looking around a few others with revulsion), it wasn't Diku and we used only what you call 'social emotes',  so I had, or have, quite a fresh outlook on it all and the entire format/concept etc was totally new to me.  

So, learning the commands is tricky but quite straight-forward and it's not even a quarter of the problems I've had - so a newbie area wouldn't have been very helpful for me. Also, being ruthlessly slaughtered by some critter and my first gal permanantly dying when she blithely set out west from Red Storm to find Allanak made me excited and gleeful about the game I'd discovered and I went to the docs with a new found awe.

I think newbies, and in fact everybody –should- read the docs as much as possible rather than be spoonfed things in a special area and be tempted to think that –that- will do. It's a useful natural filter to weed out the new people that really can't be bothered. Yes it's a bit elitist, but then at least you can be more sure people are really interested in the game if they stick around. Quality is one of the things that makes this game great, and it's a slippery slope when you start pandering to the most indifferent, lowest calibre player - It's hard, if not impossible to turn back the clock when you've hooked a swarm of rubbish or (to be kinder) sub-standard players that degrade the overall quality - even if you -do- want to increase the playerbase. Then you may find your older players get fed up and leave, and it all spirals downwards. Most of the commands are quite easy to find in the help-files in the game....except some things like wearing things about throats...and then it's just a case of remembering...

Anyway, when you're pretty much ok with most of the commands, I'd say your troubles really begin. You've got all the lingo and slang names for everything to get to grips with, OOC not knowing what the hell people are going on about or where things are, and aspects of the clan and land that everyone seems to know but you but isn't in the docs or not obviously played out. Meanwhile, you're aware that you should be trying to play a realistic character and may well be jarring the whole scene for eveyone!

If you're really lucky a wonderful player will come along and seem to effortlessly make things understandable, teach you a lot and illuminate the game, which is amazing until you're in a new character and situation and you have to start over again!  At the moment i'm annoying –myself- by having to endlessly question IC "What does that mean?" "Who's that.."  etc, and trying to flounder around with a nonsensical character, even though people are being kind and patient with me. I could blag it and pretend I know for the sake of realism (and I've had fun doing this in the past), but then how am I ever going to learn these things? There's contradictory pressures coming from trying to 'find out IC' and trying to play realistically, and I really don't like using OOC.

I don't have a messenger thingy to make use of the helpers, I mostly avoid much OOC contact with people and I've seen their answers differ on certain subjects on the GDB anyway (no offense, I think it's a great system for some and brilliant that they're willing to help). I seem to only occasionally get answered or useful answers from my clan imms or the Mud when I e-mail them questions, (again no offense, I understand they're busy, they have their own lives, I'm one out of many and my queries probably sound trivial to them, I'm just pouring out my woes), and some questions aren't suitable for the GDB, where the information isn't always correct or conclusive anyway. I was advised once to wish up and try and find out IC from Imms etc, but I find this way too daunting, especially when i've tried a couple of times and got no response. So, that leaves me with having to try and find it all out through my characters – which, despite experience being the greatest way to learn, detracts a bit from my fun playing her as I have to veer wildly away into OOC realms and try and fit that in. However, I'm not asking or wanting it all handed on a plate for me, that's riduculous. It's tricky – especially as I took the advice of the docs with my current one and –didn't- make her a child where I could get away with more questions. That just adds even more bizarreness to it all.

Also, as sewer_rat mentioned before, being shut out the game for days while waiting for character acceptance (though normally these –are- approved quickly and it's greatly appreciated), or waiting for clan docs, or answers to queries are the times when I've been closest to washing my hands of the game and my stale character idea and getting into something else instead. (Thanks to Qetesh whose responsiveness has saved me from doing this several times.) And yes, I accept it's part of the game and it's a neccesary system - I'm not laying blame on the staff for abandoning everything to rush to my side when I call - I admire and respect and am quite in awe of what they do and how much time and work they put in. I'm just sometimes quite impatient and easily distracted – and I don't think I'm the only newbie who feels like this. It also makes learning things yourself by trial and error a frustrating and patience stretching experience, as you can't just easily abandon a character you realise you've mucked up by the time you've read the clan docs or played for a bit, and start again quickly without having to go through the waiting process again. A nuisance when all you want to do is play and get more experience under your belt.

Dunno what the answer to all this is except to grit my teeth, try to be patient and get more experienced (because I  love the game and playing with you all so I want to bother trying), but I think learning the commands is simple enough when faced with the avalanche that's coming your way as you get further into the game – especially when you try playing a character outside your shallow pool of game knowledge. Sometimes this game gets it bang on, but sometimes it can seem like you're being challenged unnecessarily when things are already challenging enough. And it can all seem horribly cliquey. There are some players who will entirely ignore your presence in the scene at all (maybe they just don't like my GDB posts or gamestyle)  but having people lead by example with a sensitivity to your lack of knowledge and a willingness to share theirs is an excellent way to learn and keep up enthusiasm. Thanks to the players who do this – you're great.

So to sum up, I'd say responsive, useful and correct answers to questions even if they sound dumb, and great, informative roleplay and consistency of the gameworld go a long way to helping and encouraging newbies like me to find their way through this game.

And I think LoD's and Marko's posts offer some really good, helpful suggestions – the more people are encouraged to use the web pages the better. (And of course it's nigh on impossible to remember everything that's in them, but still.)

People that aren't willing to play according to the docs or even bother to read them might be having fun themselves, but they just make it even harder and more confusing for people like me who have to rely on those docs and other characters for information and guidance.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't have a messenger thingy to make use of the helpers, I mostly avoid much OOC contact with people and I've seen their answers differ on certain subjects on the GDB anyway (no offense, I think it's a great system for some and brilliant that they're willing to help).

An instant messanger isn't required, you can use private messages and E-mail to contact helpers as well.  Try it sometime!  Seriously, helpers are like librarians.  They have absolutely nothing to do besides answer your questions.

[aruna]

I've read most of this thread, but not all of it. A few of my own opinions:

I agree that the game is anything but newbie friendly.  Those who don't read all the documentation before going in - which I'm guessing is the vast majority of new players - are in for a lot of surprises.. but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.  

I remember when I first logged in with my very first character.  In the first 5 minutes I was being held against my will by a soldier in the Trader's Inn, forced to my knees to beg forgiveness to the Templar there that I had neglected to bow to.  Not exactly a welcome mat, but it definitely had my heart racing, and I learned a very important lesson that I didn't learn in the docs: Templars are scary and much, much more powerful than you.

Newbies aren't going to learn similar cultural lessons like this one in a "newbie training area."  Obviously such an area would focus on syntax, which I think is addressed adequately in the documentation - it just needs to be emphasized more. A general reorganization of important material for newbies would do wonders, and I'm guessing and hoping this will be part of the website revamp that is currently underway.

I like LoD's idea of a more extensive walkthrough of the more common starting areas in the game.  I've had a chance to use a detailed walkthrough similar to the one proposed in the past, and I loved it.  Something like this may not be as hands-on as some people (namely those in support of the training area, which I personally don't like) are hoping, but it's a start, and a relatively quick and easy one at that.  I don't really see a downfall to this.  

In addition, I think giving newbies a small glimpse into what the world looks like and the detail put into it could help to seal the deal for those who are still unsure whether they want to try the game.

What about...when you get to the hall of kings, you see a button in addition to the map. The button reads: Push here for a list of basic commands and syntax if you are new to mudding, Diku, or Armageddon.

Edited to support this idea as a great alternative to the newbie zone, either a list as suggested or simply a link to this game mechanics doc.

I guess that's all for now.

- Aruna