Noob mud trainning

[adrien]

I think it would be nice if we had another choice on the big old map.

a trainning ground for new players that never played arma or a mud where a program runs and tells you and gives examples on  how things run.

reading only goes so far, experience does the rest.


newb maps would be good where it reveals the starting city and where things are inside of it. after a few chars say 5 in that one city or so the map never is not spawned  on start up of a new char. But if you go to a new city starts from 0 in that one only.  think that would work?

[Xygax]

Who would you learn the ropes from, other newbies?

I definitely think that some very basic early tutorial areas would be a nice way to help people get introduced to our commands and some of the basic techniques for interacting with the game world and other players.  But nothing short of playing with others (hopefully veterans) can really help you "get" our mud.

Another thing that will help you out (and you already seem to be improving, somewhat, though it still seems worth mentioning) is to spend some time focusing on your typing, spelling, grammar, capitalization and overall usage of the English language.  We have many players who play from across the world, including countries like Turkey, Finland and others, and while perhaps they sometimes struggle, I'm sure that they also pride themselves on their command of language.  Furthermore, their efforts to improve are hugely appreciated.  I know my own Turkish is terrible!    In my opinion, the ability to evoke language is -core- to our RP environment, so whatever you need to do to improve, you should do it.  You'll improve quickly just from watching some of the veterans players, and there are also spell-checking MUD-clients out there.

-- X

[adrien]

ya my grammer is sucky unless I remind me self, I am so use to wrighting and talking like this that it comes natural. I wright so fast I dont notice my errors


been playing a while just figured instead of dropping new players in the game why not give them a save zone to put the codes and commands to practice
maby even an imm that can answer questions. but its just an idea I figured can be debated.

[Tamarin]

I think what Xygax said about interaction with veteran players is really important.  There are things that are best learned by actual examples, rather than some lame scripted tutorial (which reeks of shitty muds, imho).  I've almost never heard new players complain about how things are.  This may be because they leave and come back later when they are more mentally focused to tackle the syntax and feel of the game, and quite frankly I like it that way.  I'd rather they do that than putz around the game not having the first clue about what to do.

This is very much an adult game, and the average adult should be able to figure things out without having to be helped through a newbie zone.

Also, I like that extra bit of grittiness where if a new player doesn't get good control of the syntax and the general pace of the game right away, he or she is going to lose a few characters because of it.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

ThunderLord wrote:

CONTACT BREAK PSI

That's contact, cease, psi, by the way. I know, old habits are hard to break.
Erm, cease.
Anyway, I'm against this simply because tutorial areas in MUDs made me cringe. If there was a tutorial area in place when I first started playing Armageddon, I might've never stayed.
A tutorial area would be counter-intuitive, I think. It would give new players the impression that people in game are willing to help ease them along. That people will take it easy on them. This is very much not the case.

[EvilRoeSlade]

been playing a while just figured instead of dropping new players in the game why not give them a save zone to put the codes and commands to practice
maby even an imm that can answer questions. but its just an idea I figured can be debated.

No lie, adrien has been playing longer than I have.

As Xygax said, an optional tutorial to help with basic commands might go a long way to make Armageddon more user-friendly.

And also as Xygax said, learn to spell adrien, and the shift key besides.

Take care all.

[Nao]

I don't know what everyone has against a training zone... Lot's of shitty muds have it but if it helps newbies, why not? Both other rpis have a place where you can safely test commands and such and have someone explain to you how to put on armor and the like (as far as I know, it's more scripted tutorial in harshlands and more helpers to show new players aorund in an ooc place).
When I started mudding, I wasn't able to wear armor -  because I didn't know how to. Some time later on a hack and slash I couldn't figure out that the command to take something off is remove--- not undress, not unwear or something like that, remove. A lot of it is basic syntax, really, that veteran players can hardly terach you in game because they won't notice, those aren't in character problems.
Really, I think something brief to make you learn the basic commands... Nothing about the game world or things that would be in the docs, those things tha, like xygax said need tobe learned from veteran players. When I was new here, I met some REALLY helpless newbies and a safe training zone would have relly helped those, too. I've also had some newbies on aim, even converts from another mud and buying/selling seems to be a big problem because the syntaxc is unusual. Sure, there's helpfiles, but it'S hard to find a keyword if you don't know what to look for. My first char here died of frustration when I couldn't figure out how to 'leave' something.
I think you think of the wrong level of learning when you say that a tutorial are wouldn't be good. Things that would be learned in game can be learned in game. But some stuff is hard to figure out, exspecially when everyone stays in character and no one tajkes pity in that poor newbie and tells them oocly how to type things.
If you dislike the idea of a tutorial so much, then maybe a good helpfile that works as a guide through the basic commands all in one file would help... Just read it down and post a referance just at the start or something. What happened to our FAQ?  Am I right when I think that they will be put in with the website revamp? If I'm right, a link of those posted everyhwhere, int eh approvement email and then when they get in game would also be helpful.

[RunningMountain]

No.

-RM

[Bestatte]

What about...when you get to the hall of kings, you see a button in addition to the map. The button reads:

Push here for a list of basic commands and syntax if you are new to mudding, Diku, or Armageddon.

Then when you push it, you stay in the Hall of Kings and the list comes up.

talk (with or without emotes) Hello.
say (with or without emotes) Hello.
tell ugly (with or without emotes) Hello.
contact cease psi
help prompt
west with or without an emote, no parenthases
sit table (with or without an emote)
stand (with or without an emote)

The emote symbols
help emotes

enter/leave

look object/person with or without emotes, no parenthases

*Look Map When You Are Done and Ready To Enter The Game.*

------end------

[RunningMountain]

I think apps should be rejected like they used to. When I first started I got rejected 5-6 times in a row sometimes, it was a good learning experience.

[HardCarbon]

Or.. to expand.. give people a place they can go (say a test room) to practice their emoting rathing then doing it live.    Call it a practice room..  espically for bards and the like practicing your performance and having a script or macro go berserk cause you did it wrong is NOT something you want a watching IMM to see...

I think it would be nice if we had another choice on the big old map.

a trainning ground for new players that never played arma or a mud where a program runs and tells you and gives examples on  how things run.

reading only goes so far, experience does the rest.


newb maps would be good where it reveals the starting city and where things are inside of it. after a few chars say 5 in that one city or so the map never is not spawned  on start up of a new char. But if you go to a new city starts from 0 in that one only.  think that would work?

[Puppet]

Hmm... when I first began I went to "help newbie" and read the FAQ's. It didn't take very long and by doing that I got the very basic knowledge I needed to just play. Everything else I've learned has come with playing. Why is there such an aversion to the help files?  :?

[Cuusardo]

We don't need a newbie training area.  That's what the plethora of help files on the website is for.  It's wise to read them all and keep that help file page handy when you start playing.

[Akaramu]

I think apps should be rejected like they used to. When I first started I got rejected 5-6 times in a row sometimes, it was a good learning experience.

A friend I met in Eve-online made a character out of curiosity after I told him about Arm. He told me his character had weird dreams about scrap metal, and it was in his background.

He got approved.  

Too bad he doesnt have the time to play, he would have been a great addition.

And to the imm who read that scrap metal background, spilled coke over their keyboard laughing, and then hit the accept button... blame me.  :wink:

[Cale_Knight]

Seems to me that some of you guys are confusing IC harshness with OOC harshness.

Armageddon is an extremely newbie-unfriendly MUD. Yes, there are tons of helpfiles. So many that it can be overwhelming. Yes, there's a list of helpers - but that requires you to be willing to knock on a complete stranger's door, so to speak.

Yes, there's a newbie "ask the players" section, but some of you are elitist bastards who answer 90% of questions with "find out IC" or entirely unhelpful things like "Well, try thinking this through! What would your character..."

I'm totally for this idea. Anything to help attract new players. A newbie help zone won't take away from the MUD. Your character isn't suddenly going to be sucked into a vortex of OOCness because somewhere on the same port there's a mobprog teaching some guy the difference between tell and talk.

[LoD]

I think we need Armbot 2000.

Hall of Kings [NEWS]

Armbot 2000 has arrived from the north.

>say hi

You say, in sirihish:
   "hi"

Armbot 2000 says, in sirihish:
   "Welcome to the game!  Please follow me.  You have five seconds to comply."

>say how?

You say, in sirihish:
   "how?"

Armbot 2000 says, in sirihish:
   "You have 3 seconds to comply."

>say i am new =)

You say, in sirihish:
   "i am new =)"

Armbot 2000 says, in sirihish:
   "Time elapsed.  Failure to comply.  Welcome to Armageddon!"

Armbot 2000 extends its left arm, a bone spike firing into your skull.

<mantis head>

>connect to mud
You have mail.
>m
You have 1 unread mail.
>r mail
>Please review the follow command.  "help follow"  See you soon!
 Love, Armbot 2000.

[bloodfromstone]

You couldn't have said it better, Cale. I've been astonished and even occasionally offended by how people have treated perfectly valid (even if tired) newbie questions, complaints, and problems since I started. I frequently wonder if people actually want more players, since there seems to be no lack of attempts to drive them away.

[sarahjc]

I am just all about posting up old links today, mostly it's because I'm lazy and don't feel like typing the same stuff again.

But here is another great link on cool newbie discussion.

[Larrath]

I don't really see how a newbie zone could help the game that much.

What we need is more accessible documentation.  Optimize our priorities and prioritize our optimizations!  Ride our kanks and kank the riders!

We need a new Great Merchant House.  Merchant House Fubar.  And House Fubar will sell links to the Helpers page.
If a player with potential reaches a Helper, most of the time they're set.  We can help them on the way with basic questions, answers and advice.  Tell people that they can do card tricks, -not- amazing feats of magick and illusion, and so on and so forth.

Perhaps we could have a tiny 'mini Tuluk' and 'mini Allanak' areas, where players don't actually play but rather move around the miniaturized city and read about it.  The entire city could have twenty rooms or so, and would look something like this:

.               3           4         5                   14
.                                6
. 2    X      X     7    X
.               1               8
.                                         10             11  
.               8
.                                12                            13
1 - Gaj
2 - West Gate (Devotions)
3 - Elementalist's Quarter
4 - The 'rinth
5 - Byn Compound
6 - Bazaar
7 - Dragon Temple
8 - Trader's Inn
9 - Barrel
10 - Arena
11 - Atrium
12 - Templar's Quarter
13 - Noble's Quarter
14 - Merchant's Quarter

Each 'room' would be simply some text explaning what happens in it, and who goes there.  The Templar's Quarter, for example, would say that this is where the jail is and ordinary people stay out of there out of penalty of very painful death, while the Atrium room could explain how Aides work, and the Merchant's Quarter would explain crafters and such.

This seems the most practical and helpful.  When people point at Allanak or Tuluk on a map, they'd be asked whether they want to see the minimized version first.

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

Documents rank very highly as a anti-newbie method on my list, but they do prove more useful as I play along. Yet, they are the ones that invoke starting interest as well. A good read will convince people the mud is worth time spent on, till they tried it out and know for themselves. More accessible light reading will help [where reading just those will enable one to start out in the game]

I just tried Harshlands, the amount of reading got to me.... I feel strongly about documents :p

So what problems does the mud has attracting people to it?

What are the problems that newbies face when they first enter armageddon?

What are the problems that they face that makes them decide, " THIS MUD SUCKS!"?

I have a feeling we share players between Isildur, Armageddon and maybe Harshlands.

[amoeba]

I've been astonished and even occasionally offended by how people have treated perfectly valid (even if tired) newbie questions, complaints, and problems since I started. I frequently wonder if people actually want more players, since there seems to be no lack of attempts to drive them away.

I agree as well.  

Some of the wonderfull(yes this is sarcasm) advice heard so far.

No.

Yep, that was the entire post.

Also, I like that extra bit of grittiness where if a new player doesn't get good control of the syntax and the general pace of the game right away, he or she is going to lose a few characters because of it.

:shock:

I think apps should be rejected like they used to. When I first started I got rejected 5-6 times in a row sometimes, it was a good learning experience.

:roll:

Here is the bottom line, we would like more people to play.  Not because Arm is a bad place to play now, it isn't, it's great, but because it could be a better place.  We have remained static in our numbers for sometime. Obviously we are still getting some new people or the numbers would be declining, but whatever we are doing or not doing is not raising that number.

Yes, we have wonderfull documentation, but I would venture to say most people do not do extensive research to see if they will like the place, most people want to look about a bit before they invest thier precious time to studying the place.  

Yes, we have helpers, but I understand the mindset of not wating to IM, or email a stranger and ask questions that would make me look stupid.  God forbid I ask a question here, some folks revel in making people look stupid.  

Again discuss openly ideas that help to bring people in.  It would be nice to have a productive  dissussion with some effort to put forth ideas, not just blatently dissmis ideas with no constructive input.  And for those folks with an elitist additude, you can be elitist and be wrong at the same time.

Personaly I like the idea of mentors, not sure how the details would work out but it is interesting.  I don't care for newbie schools/tutorials.  I would like to see web tools brought back surch as the emote emulator, that was a very useful tool.   I even offered to write the damn thing once to no response.
[soapbox]

editied for typos, damn 5 point type in the edit window, I'm too old to see it well.

[Scarborough]

OK, short rant due to those quotes I just read above---^

I'm not new to mudding -- not by a long shot.  But THIS mud -still- makes me feel new at times.  When I came to Armageddon I was excited to find a game that focused on roleplay but quickly I became frustrated, put off, and annoyed by the pontificating, snobby, know-it-all people I came into contact with.  I was actually warned BEFORE coming to Arm, by a seasoned long-time player that snobbery was rampant here and to be prepared to figure it out mostly on my own.  And the elitest attitudes often found on this dicussion board were even worse when I came here to search and read.  "Helpful players" were often more eager to tell me that what I was doing was wrong in a sassy way and to go read help files and get it right than they were to offer help in a simple way.  There was the "helpers" list but I don't like inviting just anybody to add me to their IMs -- I'm cautious that way.  I'm still put off by attitudes in the game at times.  

The snobbery, elitest attitudes don't help this mud draw new people.  It's not something emanating from ALL the players, but it only takes a handful of snobs to color the mud-world that way.    I go out of my way to help other newbies having trouble with basic commands regardless of how many ooc's I have to do.  It's not fair to tell those people "go to another stock mud, figure it out and then come back."  That would be like me telling one of my students to go take music lessons from somebody else and come back when they're advanced players -- I wouldn't have anybody in my studio because parents would be completely put off.   Those quotes make me ill -- It's absolutely immoral to revel in a newbie's struggling.  People coming up with comments like that are rude and probably have insecurity issues in real life since they have to come to a mud to bully or berate newbies to feel powerful and part of the "clique".  I used to ban those obnoxious people on my mud.  

So, I digress...  those quotes got me riled.  I agree that having a training area would -really- benefit this game and help new people figure it out and not feel so insecure.  It would be especially helpful those new to mudding in general.  Those new to Armageddon, which is certainly not like most muds, but familiar with other muds would benefit with a quick stop in training land as well.  Those arguing that a newbie wouldn't learn anything from a training area without interaction with real PC's are mistaken.  Mobprograms are powerful and if this is really a mud based roughly on diku/rom code (though to me it looks an awful lot like a java/coffeemud and not diku at all), there's no limits to what you can have a mob do, say, watch for, be triggered by, etc.  Well planned mobprogs can guide even the most hapless newbie into the beginnings of understanding how to mud.  I've built training areas and mobprogs that do just that and they were very effective -- I had almost no problems with newbies after that training area, no gimping, no spamming and they got right into roleplaying.  A training area would insure that new players wouldn't have to deal with curt  or disgusted comments from impatient players who feel their environment and illusion is just being shattered.  A training area would insure that players clinging to their fantasy illusion who don't want it disrupted in any way WON'T have to worry about newbies spoiling their fun.

*steps off her soap box*

[Scarborough]

Oh yeah, one more thing.  There are such a VAST number of documents to be read.  Who wants to read all that for days, weeks and THEN play?  A person wants to get in the mud, see what it's like, decide if they like it.  I agree 100% that the documentation is overwhelming to a new player.  It overwhelmed me.  I find the documentation MORE helpful now that  I've been playing a while.  

I'd definitely say that the documentation, while excellent and thorough, would put newbie's off.

[Puppet]

I'd definitely say that the documentation, while excellent and thorough, would put newbie's off.

I disagree. "Help Newbie" lumps together some FAQ's and several files that are vital to learning the basics of play. They aren't massive, and they don't take hours to read. I'm not suggesting newbies pour through every shred of documentation before submitting a character. I'm simply saying the basics are already laid out for them in an easy to read and access manner.

Help Newbie!

[Cale_Knight]

I disagree. "Help Newbie" lumps together some FAQ's and several files that are vital to learning the basics of play.

Yeah! There's only thirty-two files in help newbie.

For the love of Pete, if a new player doesn't have the time or patience to read  through the thirty-two files in help newbie along with the 10 links on the introductory information page on the main site, what business does he have in this game?

[/sarcasm]

PS - And he'd better read all fifty-one files mentioned under "help character," or he might as well just run head-long into a scrab right now.

And the thirty-two files mentioned in "help communication."

And the twenty under "help items."

The twenty-seven under "help combat."

..where was I going with this?