Wizards' Duel

[Tamarin]

One time I emoted so hard that my target killed himself.

[joyofdiscord]

I often see people make emotes that are virtually identical (or, in some cases, -actually-, -literally- identical! which is confusing) to the code echo, this happens especially often with "give" and "sit" commands.  Yeah, I do find it rather annoying.

[joyofdiscord]

Xygax you're very unpredictable, one minute you love me the next minute you hate me. I'm kinda like Marmite. Besides, I agree with you, but I was responding to his question, not to what I believe.

Also, I don't mean to speak for Xygax here, but it seemed his responses to you were very neutral, without the slightest bit of emotional charge.  You don't need to take everything that happens on a message board, every slight disagreement with you, so dang personally.  It's just words on the internet.  Me, you, all of us.  We're words on the internet.  I highly doubt that very many people on these boards actually "love" or "hate" anyone else on the board (barring those that actually know each other in real life) in any meaningful sense of the words.  You'll understand when you're older.

[Ritley]

Xygax you're very unpredictable, one minute you love me the next minute you hate me. I'm kinda like Marmite. Besides, I agree with you, but I was responding to his question, not to what I believe.

Also, I don't mean to speak for Xygax here, but it seemed his responses to you were very neutral, without the slightest bit of emotional charge.  You don't need to take everything that happens on a message board, every slight disagreement with you, so dang personally.  It's just words on the internet.  Me, you, all of us.  We're words on the internet.  I highly doubt that very many people on these boards actually "love" or "hate" anyone else on the board (barring those that actually know each other in real life) in any meaningful sense of the words.  You'll understand when you're older.

Alright, well I hate you. There you go. And, yes I'm insulted easy, always have been, always will be. Would you stop trying to create a argument? please? you done this on the general discussion as well, what is it with you?

[joyofdiscord]

Saying "No one actually hates you, Ritley" is not the same as "trying to start an argument."  I'm trying to give you some perspective so maybe you can be a little more comfortable on the boards, be a little less self-conscious and maybe relax the persecution complex a bit.  My efforts have clearly been wasted.  

I'm done responding here, as "Why do you hate me?" is not the topic of this thread.  Just remember, words on the internet.  That's all it is.  Words on the internet.

[Xygax]

Xygax you're very unpredictable, one minute you love me the next minute you hate me. I'm kinda like Marmite. Besides, I agree with you, but I was responding to his question, not to what I believe.

I was confused, so I looked up marmite and I still don't understand this remark.

Anyway, with respect to whether I hate or love you....  Think of this as tough love for an Armageddon addict.

-- Xygax, the Dessert Wanderer

[joyofdiscord]

Marmite is a product in the UK, similar in many respects to Australia's famous Vegemite.  A salty, yeasty, strong-tasting spread scraped from the muck in the bottom of beer brewer's vats.  It's probably something of an acquired taste, something you crave like mad sometimes but other times makes you sick at the thought of it.

[Ritley]

Xygax you're very unpredictable, one minute you love me the next minute you hate me. I'm kinda like Marmite. Besides, I agree with you, but I was responding to his question, not to what I believe.

I was confused, so I looked up marmite and I still don't understand this remark.

Anyway, with respect to whether I hate or love you....  Think of this as tough love for an Armageddon addict.

-- Xygax, the Dessert Wanderer

Maybe marmite is only made in england then *shrug*  

[Super Mega Defiler]

Just to try and rerail this thread:
The question here is not whether one must always emote before backstabbing or casting a lethal spell.  It's certainly not about asking whether two emotes are fine before I cast Fart of Death or whether only five or so will do.

Roleplaying means staying in character, and emoting helps display this and flesh out the environment, though it does not, by itself, make good roleplay.
This is not the question here either.

The question is this: two characters are standing in a given room.  Both characters are capable of an attack that, for this example, will mean absolute and immediate death for the second character.  As far as "roleplay" goes, both characters are mentally and physically ready and plan on using their killing attacks.  The question is then; how, without breaking character or relying on OOC methods (like casting at the exact second the High Sun room message echos), can it be arranged for this encounter to be fair?
In Character, nobody is going to give anybody an edge.  Emoting that thick mist is pouring from my Vivaduan's nose as he lifts his hands isn't, ICly, stalling the casting - it's slowing down time on an OOC level.

How, without breaking character, can a situation of two magickers standing in front of each other be OOCly fair so one doesn't cast while the other is in the midst of typing an emote and cannot respond in time?  Because ICly, they're both going to start casting as soon as they can, but it also just sucks to go "east;cast 'mon un fart of death' otherguy".

[Marauder Moe]

Does it need to be fair?  Though we try to minimize it in most situations, an OOC hesitation -does- translate into an IC hesitation.  I think the idea that when you hesitate you put your life in danger is a very Zalanthan idea too.  Only fools look for fair fights.  :wink:

I do agree that it would be nice if combat/encounters could be slowed down for interaction, though, but I'm not sure it'd be possible.  Increasing the delay on outdoor travel, casting, and fighting probably would bring up other problems.

As I think I've said in this thread before, the best solution might be to emote describing your spell/actions *after* you've sent the cast command.

[Agent_137]

What, you want a little "typing" icon to pop above their heads when their typing out an emote?

The answer is:
It can't be made fair without use of OOC methods and breaking character.

[Jherlen]

PvP fights are rarely ever "fair". In cases where the two combatants are equal, the advantage usually goes to the guy who strikes first. This is true regardless of the game you're playing or the ability sets of the people involved.

If you want to win, and the guy who hits first wins... well, you can decide to either win or lose. It's your opponent's responsibility to do the same thing.

The only other solution if you wanted a "fair" duel would be to arrange terms with your opponent beforehand. Contact him over the Way and say "We both know that we possess the abilities of Fart of Doom, but to truly determine who has greater powers, I challenge you to a duel using the spell Sneeze of Lesser Dismemberment!" Of course, that's assuming you trust them to play by the rules.

[Xygax]

First, thanks for re-railing, and I apologize for allowing myself to be drawn into the derail.

Second, there's really no such thing as an "instantly kill my enemy in one shot" spell.  If you're enemy is prepared and you are not, they're probably going to win, no matter how mon your fart of fury is (assuming the two of you are relatively equally matched otherwise).

Third, I don't think it is reasonable to expect a fair fight in our game, (either ICly fair or OOCly fair).  OOCly, someone in the match types faster, or thinks faster, or has more experience with PVP (which is an -entirely- different thing than PVE in our game), and so will have inherent advantages as a result of those things.  ICly, luck can also be a big factor in a stand-off between two otherwise equally-matched opponents.  Even your very deadliest spell might fizzle at the wrong time or do below-average damage on your first shot, or whatever.  If you're looking for a "twitch" mechanic along the lines of a quick-draw where no one starts before the other one is ready, our game simply isn't capable of managing this.  EVEN if you both type your command at -exactly- the same moment, the packets sent across the network from your machines may arrive during different game loops.  And EVEN if they arrive on the same game loop, one of your descriptors will occur earlier in the list than the other.  One of your actions will codedly occur -before- the other person's action has even begun.  And there's no way in our code-base for it to work any differently.

Slowing down combat, magick, etc., even if it didn't have other consequences in terms of the game mechanics would also be a bad thing in terms of design, in my opinion.  I like that you can die quickly on Arm, as I think that parallels real life more accurately.  Already, in that sense, our combat code takes too long.  Two capable warriors can go for literally IC hours without even scratching each other.

So, maybe what we're looking for is a different thing.  Maybe there need to be more ways to incapacitate/capture people that don't permit them to use the Way to rat you out.  I've been intrigued also by the many discussions about ropes/shackles for controlling prisoners (though players imprisoning players leads to other OOC issues that are difficult to manage).

Maybe what's needed are more ideas about how non-lethal conflict can proceed in a way that doesn't feel OOCly manipulated.  I'm always mildly bothered by the fact that, on Zalanthas, one of the best ways to solve your problems with a particular individual really is to kill them dead.  Because this is the case, many situations that could be resolved more mildly (with a beating or mangling or dismemberment, instead of a killing  :twisted:) and/or with greater potential for future RP, end in quick deaths.

I don't necessarily have those ideas, but they might be more fruitful discussions than trying to make "badass sorcerer v. badass sorcerer" battles fair.

-- X

[JohnGalt]

So, maybe what we're looking for is a different thing.  Maybe there need to be more ways to incapacitate/capture people that don't permit them to use the Way to rat you out.  I've been intrigued also by the many discussions about ropes/shackles for controlling prisoners (though players imprisoning players leads to other OOC issues that are difficult to manage).

Adding methods of restricting the use of the Way through non-magickal means would definitely increase the number of interrogations that occur, opposed to swift executions.

As for non-lethal combat...  I think good roleplaying of the 'victims' could do this.  If they get beaten nearly to death, and actually roleplay being too terrified to speak about a subject, then its all good.  But what is sooooo common these days is after someone is 'taught a lesson' they immediately turn around  and tattle tale.

[Maybe42or54]

What pisses me off though, and this has happened 4 or 5 times to me.

Usually this happens in less than 3 minutes.

You head north.
The Road [NESW]
The long and identical desc of the room before. Yes, it is still very cool.

The evil, unknown magicker is doing anything but raiding.

You ride past ~magicker, nodding recognition before moving on.

The evil, unknown magicker begins casting.
The evil, unknown magicker fails at casting.

The evil, unknown magicker begins casting.
The evil, unknown magicker fails at casting.

(right about here, I was dumbfounded. "What the fuck is this fucker doing? I havn't even looked at them.)

you think Fuck it.

Look evil

You see the desc, sdesc, and scant gear list of the evil magicker.

The evil, unknown magicker begins casting.
The evil, unknown magicker fails at casting.

emote rides into the area, no weapons drawn, then sess ~magicker and continues riding.

The evil, unknown magicker begins casting.
The evil, unknown magicker fails at casting.

You wait for an emote.

The evil, unknown magicker begins casting.
The evil, unknown magicker fails at casting.

The evil, unknown magicker begins casting.
The evil, unknown magicker fails at casting.

The evil, unknown magicker begins casting.
The evil, unknown magicker paralyzes you.

The evil, unknown magicker runs south along the road.

[jhunter]

:shock:  You approached an obvious magicker out in the wilds by yourself? On purpose even?

[amoeba]

:shock:  You approached an obvious magicker out in the wilds by yourself? On purpose even?

My thought exactilly.

The evil, unknown magicker begins casting.
think Oh shit!
pemote eyes pop open wide.
run
s (screaming like a little girl with his hands over his head)

[Maybe42or54]

I didn't know it was a magicker. I was hoping for an emote or some shit along those lines. I gave them the benefit of the doubt, which I don't do anymore.

The whole thing took place on the road.

[Halaster]

I didn't know it was a magicker. I was hoping for an emote or some shit along those lines. I gave them the benefit of the doubt, which I don't do anymore.

The whole thing took place on the road.

How could you not know they were a mage if they were casting spells and failing against your?  Or better yet, if you didn't know they were a magicker, how could you post that they were a magicker?  

I'm lost.

[Halaster]

I think I agree almost 100% with the thoughts both Naatok and Xygax have posted.  My opinion is that roleplaying is playing a role, and a whole situation, not just a scene.  The situation may culminate in your death, but even if I didn't satisfy your emoting needs, that doesn't mean I wasn't roleplaying well.  The number/frequency of emotes or thinks or whatever do not constitute good OR bad roleplay.  The playing realistically  of a role does.  Now, if I see a mage just casting all day long with no thinks, emotes, etc., then I'm going to question him.  I won't instantly think he's a twink, but I'll encourage him to make it more obvious that he IS roleplaying.

At any rate, I agree with the thought process that if you are a mage, and you have the opportunity and ability to make the situation more fun and more enjoyable for the victim than just a quick spell and a death, then by all means, you should do that.  But if you've been chasing a person a while, and they've shown you over and over that they tend to just run as soon as they know you're there, then go Texan on 'em and just whack 'em.  Then emote kicking their corpse, or whatever.

What I'm saying is that I don't think it's a requirement by any means whatsoever that you must emote before casting a spell of doom on someone.  Although, if you know you can do it and still acheive your goal, you really should.  A mage who just whacks someone with little scene-enhancement affects (i.e. emotes, monologues, etc) isn't a very fun mage to watch, and doesn't really impress me.  But I don't think they suck, necessarily either.  The mages who -do- do those things, though, I admit, are more entertaining.

But as Naatok said, I really wish people would stop assuming you must emote or monologue or think or whatever to be a good roleplayer.  While those absolutely help, they're not the definition.

[Maybe42or54]

Shell shock. Yea. That is what I had.

Squinting, you think, "What the fuck is the distant figure doing?"
Magick is scarier with no emotes, because then all you see is the code and the mantis.

[joyofdiscord]

How could you not know they were a mage if they were casting spells and failing against your?  Or better yet, if you didn't know they were a magicker, how could you post that they were a magicker?  

I'm lost.

I interpreted it sort of like this: without an emote, it's very difficult to see through your character's eyes, decide what he's seeing, and how he would respond.

Is my character just seeing some wierd guy standing out in the desert mumbling (and you wouldn't even notice the mumbling since he's far away and maybe hooded) ?  Or are there obvious swirls of magickal juju flying off him that anyone would notice from leagues away?  The code echo might give you some clue, but still might be pretty ambiguous.

-That- is my problem with no-emoting magickers.  They just don't fill in the blanks.  And the code echoes leave a LOT of blanks.

[naatok]

I'd like to comment on the 'canned emotes' sub-thread in this...already bulging ball of thread...

For the most part, I totally agree with Xygax's statement about canned emotes.  There's only one exception I can think of, and that is when a particular activity -always- has the same witnessable effect.

For instance, Pbbfft, the krathi elementalist has a problem.  He loves spicy scrab-cakes and ale.  Unfortunately, they don't love him back and he is beset  by the worst cases of intestinal gas this side of the Gladiator & Gaj tavern.

This situation creates another problem for Pbbfft the Krathi.  When he uses his magick, he tends to shoot small, alarming, but otherwise totally harmless fireballs out of his ass.

Since this affliction is ongoing, every time our hapless gas-bag of a hero uses his powers, he farts another harmless fireball.

Pbbfft is extremely embarrassed about the whole affair (especially since he can't even use the effect to light a candle...the combustion simply doesn't last long enough to burn anything but his own ass-wind), but...what can he do?  Give up spicy scrab cakes and frothy ale?  Not bloody likely!!!

I know the example concept is silly (actually I love it! :twisted: ), but it exemplefies a particular situation that is persistent enough to warrant, in my not-so humble fart-lighting opinion...a simple canned emote for a particular action.