Ouch

[Anonymous]

Brawl code, yeah that.

See but I didn't mean to actually kill the person I just ment to hit them it -is- a tavern none the less, fancy or not.  And the fact that I got chopped down, even though I had no weapons out before I could even hit no save and I couldn't flee it was weird, just was kinda like wow.  That really really sucked.  And was a wee but unrealistic.  Is there like no subduing of people in Tulluk or what?  I mean I didn't even get dragged off to jail.  And I didn't draw my weapons cause I was expecting them to just try and subdue me, once I saw soldiers but that didn't happen.  *sigh* That sucked.

[Anonymous]

I don't see what's unrealistic about attacking someone in front of a soldier and that soldier running you through.  Being dragged off to jail is a best case scenario.

[jhunter]

I don't see what's unrealistic about attacking someone in front of a soldier and that soldier running you through.  Being dragged off to jail is a best case scenario.

[Synthesis]

The way the crime code is currently implemented, if you're already engaged in a brouhaha, the soldiers stab first and ask questions later.  If you're wanted, but not fighting, they'll try to subdue you.  However, if you're a mul or a half-giant and you become wanted, they'll just commence to running you through without trying to subdue you first...because trying to subdue a mul or a half-giant is just -asking- to get hurt.

(Note: the mul/half-giant thing may have changed in the recent past...it's been a while since I've played either one as a criminal-type.)

[jstorrie]

I agree that >brawl test is a good idea, though, and I don't see it having any negative effects on the game.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I agree that >brawl test is a good idea, though, and I don't see it having any negative effects on the game.

[Marauder Moe]

People (newer players in particular) would start basing their IC choice to start a fight or not based on an OOCly-gained foreknowledge of the consequences.  Granted, that happens already through a player's past characters, but I think facilitating it more with code isn't a good idea.  Also, remember that you CAN be arrested for brawling even in a brawl-code tavern.  With a test-command, I think you'll have more people whining about that.

[proxie]

Also, remember that you CAN be arrested for brawling even in a brawl-code tavern.  With a test-command, I think you'll have more people whining about that.

Which means we get to do much pointing and laughing. Always good for morale.  :twisted:

Proxie

[Dalmeth]

People (newer players in particular) would start basing their IC choice to start a fight or not based on an OOCly-gained foreknowledge of the consequences.

Well, it's obvious that the criterion for a good place to start a brawl is entirely subjective, so without brawl test, you are forcing someone to guess about an OOC property based on IC interpretation.

It really is a grey area.

Personally, if I implented brawl test, I would make the message look something  like this :

You see no guards about, let's go bust some heads!

[Marauder Moe]

Whether or not a fight is going to land you in jail/Drov is hardly an OOC property.

[Anonymous]

Well, it's obvious that the criterion for a good place to start a brawl is entirely subjective, so without brawl test, you are forcing someone to guess about an OOC property based on IC interpretation.

Wait, how is it an 'OOC property' and how is 'forcing someone to guess' any different than the real world?

If you are in a posh socialite tavern throwing a punch will get the cops called on you.  If you are in a biker bar throwing a punch will likely get a punch thrown back at you.

All the indicators are there for players to determine whether or not a brawl might go unnoticed or unheeded by the authorities.

[jstorrie]

The difference is that if you throw a punch in the wrong tavern your character may very well be insta-gibbed by the guards. I needn't remind you that having your character die is about the worst thing that can happen, from the player's perspective. Everything is over because you didn't know there was no brawl code in a tavern.

[Delirium]

>nosave on

[jhunter]

>nosave on

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!!! That combined with being ready to flee in case things go wrong and you should be just fine.

[Anonymous]

The difference is that if you throw a punch in the wrong tavern your character may very well be insta-gibbed by the guards.

How's that different?  I never said anything different.  If you 'hit' someone in a posh tavern you are likely to get messed up.

The real difference to me is that people want to be handfed whether or not they face crimcode ramifications for their actions instead of considering their environment and whether or not their character is in a state of mind to care.  This sort of request is a slippery slope and I worry about where it leads.  I can only assume that the omission of the brawl code in certain taverns is intentional and it's up to the player to have their PC make smart decisions, or rage-fueled decisions as the case may be.

Whether or not your PC can get thrown in jail shouldn't be the deciding factor.

Maybe I'm just stuck back in the days a few years ago when going in the wrong direction would get your PC knocked the fuck out.  I really don't think OOC notifications for IC situations are a good addition to the game.

What next?

> pick test
> You think you can get away with picking this lock.

[Ghost]

While a brawl test is an OOC message, there are already few more OOC things in the crimecode as well, and we all know there is going to be NO solution to them.
For first;  The crimecode is the most twinkish script in the game.  In one round, the guards come, shout, sheat weapons, try to subdue, fail, draw weapons, attack and land FOUR blows and the guards are really serious (!!!) in those blows.  

Second:  Attacking someone and starting a fight is an OOC issue as well.  For you CAN NOT back up from the fight.  Unless you flee.  You can not just stop hitting and cover on the ground, which is by far the easiest thing realistically, it is even instinctive.

Third: You can not just see if the guards are glaring at you while your face goes red and you ready your fists.  You have to HIT the person to see if you are going to have fun or die.  Which is stupid.  If I was to start a fight, and if it is not a backstab, surely I would have an idea if the guards are going to whack me if I just throw a punch.  Guards would even threaten like "It can be your last punch, skinny."  or "If you draw a weapon, I will remove that hand".  
But codewise we have no idea if the guards are watching it in interest, or just casually spectating to see if things are going to be "bloody".

And fourth:  Nosave on is NOT a solution.  Because once you "hit" you are "fighting" and when fighting no one can subdue you, codewise.  Even if you have your nosave on.  And since you are punching, you don't have a weapon, and without a weapon, you just should hope that the guards will not fail their mercy save because with that much twinkish NPC guards, and without a weapon you are going to die in one round anyway.
Realistically:  Can't you just see the guards and drop to the ground and surrender?  Yes you can.  Codewise?  No.  So it is OOC.

Moral of the post:  Give a brawl test.  It will be a solution to the other OOC problems in the crimecode.

[Cenghiz]

UH? For the first time I disagree with Ghost.
But the reason I think of is... unnecessity..
Oh please! NPCs clad in good fashioned clothes, drinks so expensive that you can hire a whore for a night instead of a glass half-full of some juice, a soldier waiting readied and the mdesc of the room cries out "THIS is a fine tavern."
It's a tavern where anyone might guess that at any given time there are some important VNPCs like jihaen templars, House administrators and agents speaking business.
I'm just wondering 'how' there can be a reason to brawl there anyway, in front of a soldier, pissing off 15 important folks while they can't hear each other because of the brawl's noise.
Let the staff work on more important and necessary projects.

>brawl test
Not implemented.. Please use your brain.