Ouch

[Anonymous]

So ... apparently there's no bar code in the sanctuary.  I just learned a hard lesson.

[Anonymous]

Just wondering?  Why is that?

[Tlaloc]

Bar code?

[Manhattan]

I think he means the brawl code. The Sanctuary is a respectable establishment, don't expect to be hitting people in there.

[Anonymous]

Hey, at least you can try to console yourself that your loot is being put to good use.

[Cale_Knight]

Would it be possible to implement a command for brawl similar to quit?

brawl test
Yep. You can brawl in here.

or

No, you don't think that would be a great idea.

[Spoon]

Bar code....  heh.....

The long haired, middle-aged man runs a brown bottle over the cash register.

*beep*


Besides, the place is crawling with soldiers. I think the criminal code for attacking someone is exactly what would happen in that situation.

[eska]

Would it be possible to implement a command for brawl similar to quit?

brawl test
Yep. You can brawl in here.

or

No, you don't think that would be a great idea.

I agree with Cale_Knight.. I think it'd be nice if one knows where they can pick a brawl or not.[/quote]

[Spoon]

I like the idea of not knowing. Also, it should be common sense that you shouldn't have a brawl in the ritz of the armageddon world. I have a feeling that players who brawl in there aren't thinking about the context of their PCs actions.

[Hexxaex]

If you're in a bar with lots of nobles, templars and important people, don't fight there.  And if there are also two bloody soldiers patrolling the place... seriously.

[Larrath]

Realistically, it should be very easy for a character to tell whether he'd get in trouble over brawling.  In taverns where the brawl code is enabled, brawls aren't a terribly uncommon sight.
Because of this, 'brawl test' makes more sense than asking people to reread the tavern's room desc and guess whether it's dirty enough for brawling.

With this said, no man in their right minds will ever start brawling in the presence of a soldier or a templar - and the Sanctuary, in addition to the soldiers, has a templar posted just outside.

[Cuusardo]

People seem to forget that the Sanctuary is the upper-class bar of the city.  Perhaps it's because they don't pay attention to room descriptions.  Perhaps it's because the Sanctuary is the starting spot for new characters.  (I still think it should be Firestorm, since it's closer to all the shops.)

[Spoon]

I'm with Cuusardo on this. I think having the firestorm as the starting place would suit everything much better. Here's a few reasons:

* I'd like to see more commoners/people in general in the Firestorm.

* The Firestorm starts closer to the things new players need to get started (equipment, clothing, etc.)

* New players won't be instantly recognisable walking in and out of every room in the tavern because they can't find the exit.

* You get less people believing the Sanctuary is a hospital where you can bleed wherever you like.

* I don't think this would at all effect the interaction of the different social classes in Tuluk, as Noble's don't talk to filthy hunters anyway.

That's all I can think of right now, but there's more...

[Hexxaex]

Plus, Firestorm serves ale and flame(!) straight from the bar.  Sanctuary's bartender only serves wine, and you have to get up to order ale or beer from that barmaid.

[Yokunama]

People seem to forget that the Sanctuary is the upper-class bar of the city.  Perhaps it's because they don't pay attention to room descriptions.  Perhaps it's because the Sanctuary is the starting spot for new characters.  (I still think it should be Firestorm, since it's closer to all the shops.)

Yes, the room description of that tavern describes the place as pretty decorative enviorment to be in.

[RunningMountain]

Makes no sense for the Sanc to be so close to the entrance, and north road then. With all the travelers that come through Tuluk it's the first place they pass. The firestorm should be there and the Sanc should be in Friels, or somewhere else. Most people will flock to the taverns that are closest to the main roads.

[Maybe42or54]

I always thought the Tembo's tooth would be there and the Sanc would be near the museum.

[Spoon]

And hence be near the fancy part of town.

[corona]

I think he means the brawl code. The Sanctuary is a respectable establishment, don't expect to be hitting people in there.

Note the word respectable. I see too much less than respectable stuff in there much too often!  :shock:

Edited to agree: I think the Sanctuary would have less 'riff raff' if it was located elsewhere within the city, as it doesn't seem to be realized that it is the fancy place in Tuluk, but just a regular old, run of the mill tavern.

[jhunter]

I agree with what some others have said, I think that the Firestorm would be a more appropriate place to have new pcs enter the game for the same reasons as already stated.

I'd like to see more people utilizing more appropriate taverns as well, it seemed to get better for a while now it's going back to the way things were again. Everyone in Tuluk hanging out in the Sanctuary and everyone in Allanak hanging out in the Bard's Barrel.

[Nao]

I'd like to see more people untilizing more appropriate taverns as well, it seemed to get better for a while now it's going back to the way things were again. Everyone in Tuluk hanging out in the Sanctuary and everyone in Allanak hanging out in the Bard's Barrel.

I've noticed that, too, at least in allanak... Can't say anything about tuluk because I've never really played there.
I've been one of the characters always staying in the barrel even if the gaj would have been the better place, simply because the Gaj was deserted druing my play times and I felt like doing something else than soloing all the time. And I added to the problem there. If no one is willing to sit in the gaj for some time, and wait for a second pc to show up, then everyone is going to find the gaj deserted and will head for the barrel. So someone always has to start. even if I'm one pf those people guilty of not doing it

Also, it looks like the part of the playerbase that sits in taverns is simply not big enough to be split between the Gaj and the barrel. If there's just three chars... Well, you split them, and at least one is bound to be sitting somewhere on his own. So at least during off-peak times, either everyone will be sitting in the gaj or everyone will be sitting in the barrel, so unless they are all of similar social status, someone is bound to end up in a place where they don't fit in. even when we go towards peak time, and more tavern-sitters log in, they will see one tavern empty, three characters sitting in the other... And if they chose to stay at one tavern, they won't pick the one where they would sit as the only pc, they would join the group that already exists, no matter if it is the 'right' place or not...

This is an ooc problem of getting players together, both taverns would be populated at all times... Just that people prefer pcs over npcs and vnpcs. Soloing in a tavern is no fun, so you go and fins a place where you don't have to solo, even if it would be somewhat inappropriate for a character of that social class to sit in that tavern.

[Hexxaex]

One of my characters went to Allanak, and it was weird how it was peak hour (50 or 60 players), the Gaj was empty, and the Barrel was full.  90% of all the people I saw there had a southern accent.  Since when did Allanaki commoners like bards and fine music?  I had originally thought that to be reserved for the north.

[marko]

Historically, the Sanctuary in Tuluk has always been open to everyone.  I don't see that changing even if the descriptions of the tavern are fairly upscale.

The Sanctuary was just that, a sanctuary built after Tuluk was destroyed and the Northlands were attempting to rebuild (ie, prior to Allanak's invasion).  It has always been a center of trade, discussion, and intrigue for the Gol Krathu.

Maybe one day events will conspire and someone will attempt to "clean up" Sanctuary but until then all are welcome to it and that even means dusty hunters or tribal elves (of course, tribal elves do have their own tavern in the tribal market but Sanctuary is still open).

Until there is an IC post (that is archived) in Tuluk in regards to Sanctuary turning its nose up to everyone I would consider Sanctuary to be open to everyone and encourage everyone to continue meeting there.  After all, that's what its historical role was and is.

[Bogre]

I do think the Firestorm would be a better starting place for new characters as well.

[Seeker]

I think that the Sanctuary should be open to everyone.  It IS the Sun King's Sanctuary, after all.

That isn't what concerns me so much.  What I find troubling with the Sanctuary is it seems that lately, when you go there, there are two tribal PCs, a pair of half-elf vagabonds, a Kuraci from Luir's, a hidden magicker from Red Storm, three Southerners talking smack about the northlands and sneering, a 'rinthi elf and half a dozen independent non-citizen hunters looking for mudsex.  Oh, and one northern noble and her guard protecting the sofa.  Where are the Tulukis?

The Barrel is odd, also.  I just don't get why that place draws in the PCs.  It is waay too Northern and common for the upper crust to ever go there without being taunted by their peers.  It is too swishy for the rough and tumble types, and it is a deathtrap for Gemmed to be there, lately, when the Templarate breezes through.  *shrugs*


Seeker

[Anonymous]

Brawl code, yeah that.

See but I didn't mean to actually kill the person I just ment to hit them it -is- a tavern none the less, fancy or not.  And the fact that I got chopped down, even though I had no weapons out before I could even hit no save and I couldn't flee it was weird, just was kinda like wow.  That really really sucked.  And was a wee but unrealistic.  Is there like no subduing of people in Tulluk or what?  I mean I didn't even get dragged off to jail.  And I didn't draw my weapons cause I was expecting them to just try and subdue me, once I saw soldiers but that didn't happen.  *sigh* That sucked.

[Anonymous]

I don't see what's unrealistic about attacking someone in front of a soldier and that soldier running you through.  Being dragged off to jail is a best case scenario.

[jhunter]

I don't see what's unrealistic about attacking someone in front of a soldier and that soldier running you through.  Being dragged off to jail is a best case scenario.

[Synthesis]

The way the crime code is currently implemented, if you're already engaged in a brouhaha, the soldiers stab first and ask questions later.  If you're wanted, but not fighting, they'll try to subdue you.  However, if you're a mul or a half-giant and you become wanted, they'll just commence to running you through without trying to subdue you first...because trying to subdue a mul or a half-giant is just -asking- to get hurt.

(Note: the mul/half-giant thing may have changed in the recent past...it's been a while since I've played either one as a criminal-type.)

[jstorrie]

I agree that >brawl test is a good idea, though, and I don't see it having any negative effects on the game.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I agree that >brawl test is a good idea, though, and I don't see it having any negative effects on the game.

[Marauder Moe]

People (newer players in particular) would start basing their IC choice to start a fight or not based on an OOCly-gained foreknowledge of the consequences.  Granted, that happens already through a player's past characters, but I think facilitating it more with code isn't a good idea.  Also, remember that you CAN be arrested for brawling even in a brawl-code tavern.  With a test-command, I think you'll have more people whining about that.

[proxie]

Also, remember that you CAN be arrested for brawling even in a brawl-code tavern.  With a test-command, I think you'll have more people whining about that.

Which means we get to do much pointing and laughing. Always good for morale.  :twisted:

Proxie

[Dalmeth]

People (newer players in particular) would start basing their IC choice to start a fight or not based on an OOCly-gained foreknowledge of the consequences.

Well, it's obvious that the criterion for a good place to start a brawl is entirely subjective, so without brawl test, you are forcing someone to guess about an OOC property based on IC interpretation.

It really is a grey area.

Personally, if I implented brawl test, I would make the message look something  like this :

You see no guards about, let's go bust some heads!

[Marauder Moe]

Whether or not a fight is going to land you in jail/Drov is hardly an OOC property.

[Anonymous]

Well, it's obvious that the criterion for a good place to start a brawl is entirely subjective, so without brawl test, you are forcing someone to guess about an OOC property based on IC interpretation.

Wait, how is it an 'OOC property' and how is 'forcing someone to guess' any different than the real world?

If you are in a posh socialite tavern throwing a punch will get the cops called on you.  If you are in a biker bar throwing a punch will likely get a punch thrown back at you.

All the indicators are there for players to determine whether or not a brawl might go unnoticed or unheeded by the authorities.

[jstorrie]

The difference is that if you throw a punch in the wrong tavern your character may very well be insta-gibbed by the guards. I needn't remind you that having your character die is about the worst thing that can happen, from the player's perspective. Everything is over because you didn't know there was no brawl code in a tavern.

[Delirium]

>nosave on

[jhunter]

>nosave on

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!!! That combined with being ready to flee in case things go wrong and you should be just fine.

[Anonymous]

The difference is that if you throw a punch in the wrong tavern your character may very well be insta-gibbed by the guards.

How's that different?  I never said anything different.  If you 'hit' someone in a posh tavern you are likely to get messed up.

The real difference to me is that people want to be handfed whether or not they face crimcode ramifications for their actions instead of considering their environment and whether or not their character is in a state of mind to care.  This sort of request is a slippery slope and I worry about where it leads.  I can only assume that the omission of the brawl code in certain taverns is intentional and it's up to the player to have their PC make smart decisions, or rage-fueled decisions as the case may be.

Whether or not your PC can get thrown in jail shouldn't be the deciding factor.

Maybe I'm just stuck back in the days a few years ago when going in the wrong direction would get your PC knocked the fuck out.  I really don't think OOC notifications for IC situations are a good addition to the game.

What next?

> pick test
> You think you can get away with picking this lock.

[Ghost]

While a brawl test is an OOC message, there are already few more OOC things in the crimecode as well, and we all know there is going to be NO solution to them.
For first;  The crimecode is the most twinkish script in the game.  In one round, the guards come, shout, sheat weapons, try to subdue, fail, draw weapons, attack and land FOUR blows and the guards are really serious (!!!) in those blows.  

Second:  Attacking someone and starting a fight is an OOC issue as well.  For you CAN NOT back up from the fight.  Unless you flee.  You can not just stop hitting and cover on the ground, which is by far the easiest thing realistically, it is even instinctive.

Third: You can not just see if the guards are glaring at you while your face goes red and you ready your fists.  You have to HIT the person to see if you are going to have fun or die.  Which is stupid.  If I was to start a fight, and if it is not a backstab, surely I would have an idea if the guards are going to whack me if I just throw a punch.  Guards would even threaten like "It can be your last punch, skinny."  or "If you draw a weapon, I will remove that hand".  
But codewise we have no idea if the guards are watching it in interest, or just casually spectating to see if things are going to be "bloody".

And fourth:  Nosave on is NOT a solution.  Because once you "hit" you are "fighting" and when fighting no one can subdue you, codewise.  Even if you have your nosave on.  And since you are punching, you don't have a weapon, and without a weapon, you just should hope that the guards will not fail their mercy save because with that much twinkish NPC guards, and without a weapon you are going to die in one round anyway.
Realistically:  Can't you just see the guards and drop to the ground and surrender?  Yes you can.  Codewise?  No.  So it is OOC.

Moral of the post:  Give a brawl test.  It will be a solution to the other OOC problems in the crimecode.

[Cenghiz]

UH? For the first time I disagree with Ghost.
But the reason I think of is... unnecessity..
Oh please! NPCs clad in good fashioned clothes, drinks so expensive that you can hire a whore for a night instead of a glass half-full of some juice, a soldier waiting readied and the mdesc of the room cries out "THIS is a fine tavern."
It's a tavern where anyone might guess that at any given time there are some important VNPCs like jihaen templars, House administrators and agents speaking business.
I'm just wondering 'how' there can be a reason to brawl there anyway, in front of a soldier, pissing off 15 important folks while they can't hear each other because of the brawl's noise.
Let the staff work on more important and necessary projects.

>brawl test
Not implemented.. Please use your brain.