Small Automated Clans.

[LoD]

There have been a few posts wishing for smaller clans that allowed for players to feel as if they had more of a chance to make changes, move up within an organization or do "big things" without being under the umbrella of an organization that has an almost inexhaustible reserve of VNPC's ready to take over the high level positions.

I'd like to hear players (and Imm's) comments on introducing some very small organizations into the game to which players could affiliate themselves in an automated fashion.  Long ago, players could join the Great Merchant Houses by finding an NPC Agent and paying 500 'sid.  They would then be clanned under that organization, even though it didn't do much for them.

What's the point?  I think that having these small organizations would allow players to have an opportunity to join something other than the large clans in game if they want to be a bit more independant.  The benefits to paying to join these clans would be perhaps some clan specific items/goods, maybe a few craftable items only those clans could make, and some good potential for other organizations to use them to move forward plots and IC goals.

Just so that people could get an idea, perhaps a couple of sample organizations:

Organization - Grey Woodsmen
Joining Fee - 500 obsidian
City - Tuluk (Red Sun Commons)
Owner/Operator - Tarus Dakan (the burly, claw-scarred man)
Occupation - Resource Provider (Wood)
                  Minor Art/Furniture (Wood)

Tarus operates a small time band of lumberjacks, merchants and craftsmen that supply wood to some of the Great Houses, but mostly handle construction orders (walls, doors, structures).  The Dakan family is also known for a small collection of wood crafts, mostly furniture and pieces of art (small statues, crests, hangings).

Members of this clan would have access to a 2-room building in Tuluk that contained a clan merchant who sold Dakan goods.  They'd be able to purchase Dakan goods at a discounted price, including lumberjacking gear and supplies, as well as some form of cheap craftable food/water.  Members (with the appropriate skill) would gain recipes to certain Dakan artwork/furniture while with the clan.

Organization - Redjak's Roughnecks
Joining Fee - 500 obsidian
City - Allanak (Commons)
Owner/Operator - Redjak Strum (the one-eyed, powerfully built man)
Occupation - Mercenary (Caravan/Bodyguard)
                  Patrols (Roads)

Redjak operates a small group of mercenaries under his banner.  Formerly a caravan guard captain with one of the Great Houses, Redjak decided to form his own mercenary company and offer services to the city-state and other employers as bodyguards, caravan guards and to operate a patrol of the major roadways meeting Allanak.

Members of this clan have access to a 2-room building in Allanak that contains a clanned merchant, card table and bunks (quit safe).  They are able to purchase specialized mercenary gear at a reduced price from the merchant (favoring a particular style of weapon/dress) as well as some standard mercenary fare (food/water) at a reduced rate.  Members (with the appropriate skill) would gain recipes to certain crafts including pieces of armor, weapons and foods that fit their theme while in the clan.

These are just a couple of quick examples I came up with off the top of my head, but I think organizations like this might be appealing to someone who wants to be "part of something", but not necessarily one of the huge organizations in-game.  The organization would benefit because it gains the entrance fee, as well as any monies made by purchases in its store to members as well as passerbys.

Players would benefit because they'd have a place to rest/sleep that wasn't a tavern, as well as a chance to run with some plot lines if they really wanted to do so.  The organizations would likely be small enough that one Imm could keep an eye on things, with a simple enough background to preclude any huge problems, especially since the main leaders would be VNPC's to disallow twink killing. (Though perhaps with enough time, you could get an Imm to animate one if you really felt the need to try.)

Having the system automated would allow players to not have to depend upon an in-game recruiter to be part of the clan/group.  Members would see one another in passing, and the city-states would begin to recognize the markings/trappings of each small clan when they saw them about the city.  There's a lot more to flesh out - but this is the main idea that I wanted to present for discussion.

-LoD

[jhunter]

This is an interesting idea. I'd definitely give it a try if this were in game.

[Kankman]

I couldn't disagree with this line of action more. The people who want to be included in something that isn't a huge organization would be MUCH better off doing this very sort of thing without any more automation than is necessary. Rather than paying 500 coins so that you can have access to a room, and possibly have a couple other players loosely associated with your character, it would be far more beneficial in my eyes, if one of these players had their own character start up this little clan. It's been done a few times that I've witnessed, successfully.

Automation is just not the way to fix things, in my mind. I'd really prefer finding a PC interested in hiring a few hunters/woodcutters/mercenaries/hookers than knowing if I go to such and such a building in this area of that town I can hand over some coin and get wicked access to their spiffy base and maybe some elite new craftables.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

I like this idea and think it is very well thought-out.  

I would hate to see it happen, though.  We have so many anemic and arguably redundant clans as it is.  To add more options would further thin the waters too much, I think.  

Now if some of the clans were closed/consolidated, then I think this would be very beneficial.

[Xygax]

Small clans like this are inevitably best implemented (or at least begun) as PC-driven efforts.  LoD:  you know better than many other players what a motivated individual PC is capable of.

The problem with staff-driven clans of this size is that they lead to fragmentation of the MUD's population, as staff do their best to acquire players into their own clans (clans are more fun with more people, or so the theory goes) which seems to result in each staffer collecting a small group of people (with the exception of a few clans that seem to adhere stringently to the power law) and less overall population per-clan.

This issue seems to go away with PC-driven clans, because they economize better than staff-run clans.  That is to say, PC-driven clans only recruit the PCs that are useful to the clan with less of an eye toward maximizing population.  The interesting side-effect, of course, is that these more efficient clans become more attractive to players (because everyone in the clan really does have -stuff- to do).

And of course, creating these "mini-clans" and failing to staff them or actively populate them with players would be a rather large expenditure of time with little bang-for-the-buck.

That said, I do think it would be nice if the code supported a more dynamic clan system than what is in place currently, and allowed players to architect their own clans more effectively (in terms of establishing bank-accounts, devising rank structures, and creating leaders, promoting, demoting, etc.)  But it's sort of a distant wish-list item for me, personally.

-- X

[LoD]

I would hate to see it happen, though. We have so many anemic and arguably redundant clans as it is. To add more options would further thin the waters too much, I think.

I think you may be giving too much credit to how popular these smaller clans would be with the playerbase.  I don't see them being major competition to any of the current clans in the game.  I see them as providing a more realistic and IC environment for people who would like to pursue a line of work for which support is somewhat lacking.

The people who want to be included in something that isn't a huge organization would be MUCH better off doing this very sort of thing without any more automation than is necessary.

As someone who has created and operated many PC clans (i.e. Ironsword, J'karr, Sandmen, Outfit), I've had a lot of experience with creating and managing an all-PC clan in this game.  The problem is when the PC leader dies, the clan often crumbles apart and disappears without much of a trace behind.  This may be partially correct because of the nature of smaller businesses, but I also believe it to be true because running the business would be something I think many PC's would find relatively boring.

What I propose with this idea is to setup some stability in areas that people may want to work (lumberjacking, hunting, collecting herbs, mining, etc...) and provide an environment that allows them a way to feel more "at the job".  This would allow for people to join when they don't think a big clan with a 10-year commitment is for them.  I only mention the word "clan" because it'd be an easy way to figure out who is allowed through the door, who gets a discount and who can learn some of the businesses more specialized crafts.

I don't know that you lose anything with these sorts of organizations compared to forming one as a PC from my experience.

-LoD

[Kankman]

The problem is when the PC leader dies, the clan often crumbles apart and disappears without much of a trace behind.

This is a problem? This is simply what happens when PCs attain the higher levels of power and "real world affectiveness" that you claim players want. How much of a difference in the world are you going to make if you're a grunt in an automated clan? How much of a difference will you make if you're the grunt in a clan that will DIE without you? In my mind there is a big difference between the affect of an automated clan and a PC -led clan.

It sounds to me like you're arguing two different points. On one hand I'm hearing that you want mundane "grunt" PCs to have more of a feeling like they mean something to the world. On the other hand I'm hearing that you don't want something like a PC's death to really matter all that much to the survival of a clan. These two things just don't go hand in hand.

I'd not be against some form of automation whereas it doesn't require (much) immortal support to create a clan with ranks and a place to call home, but I think it would be necessary for this to start from PCs for it to have the desired, "grunt" motivating effects on the game.

Edit: As a P.S. LoD you're my hero and one day I hope to affect the game as you have with many of your characters. The plots I am aware that you pushed with your PCs were awesome, and inspiration to all others who might intend to start something with their lonely, unaffiliated PCs.

[Jherlen]

I disagree, for all the reasons Kankman said and also...

Many of the clans in the game struggle to maintain a full membership as it is, due mostly to the fact that we have more organizations than players to keep each one full, which is fine. However, adding more will just make things worse. Also, keeping the system automated without PC superiors or recruiters means that people aren't going to actually be held to doing any work. A PC can pay his money to join Bob's Lumber Company and never chop down a single tree, because the NPC's won't ever question why this guy is being kept around if he doesn't contribute.

I'd rather see PCs initiate this kind of thing if it were going to happen. I don't like the idea of mini clans to make independent's lives any easier.

[Seeker]

Small clans like this are inevitably best implemented (or at least begun) as PC-driven efforts.

This is not so true any longer.

The last clearly articulated statement from staff to the player base that I caught claimed that no new clans conceived by players would be considered, permitted or supported.

I disagreed then with the policy, and I still disagree with it.  

An exceptionally well-conceived concept, implemented by a dedicated player over a long period of time, should -still- find it possible to accomplish something like what LoD describes.  Certainly not easily, but with smarts, struggle, luck, and sheer grit,  it should at least be possible.


Seeker

[Anonymous]

Why can't players do this on their own? Form the clan from the ground up, create and/or rent their own space, make their own contacts, etc? People seem to have this ineffectual need to be protected by the code. Characters, regardless of what the staff say, are allowed to work together in whatever fashion they see fit as long as it fits icly. You dont need some coded 'clan' moniker.

[Angela Christine]

The last clearly articulated statement from staff to the player base that I caught claimed that no new clans conceived by players would be considered, permitted or supported.  

They are permitted, just not supported.  You can start a lumber company, recruit partners and hire employees.  You just don't automatically get imm support and coded perks.  The flip side of "no imm support" is "no imm interferance" (except that which all players are subject to).  Without a clan imm you don't have NPC superiors restricting your activities.

The recent tweaks to the automated apartment code make small clans easier to start than ever.  While you may not be able to get a custom clan HQ built, you can rent an apartment and have the other members of your buisness or family as co-renters.   A home-base is often considered the most critical part of any clan, and now you can get one without imm help.  Happy fun time.


Angela Christine

[Maybe42or54]

I think you may be giving too much credit to how popular these smaller clans would be with the playerbase.  I don't see them being major competition to any of the current clans in the game.  I see them as providing a more realistic and IC environment for people who would like to pursue a line of work for which support is somewhat lacking.

-LoD

They are major competition in the Pcs eyes. Any competition severely splits up the pc base and makes both that much more ineffective.

I love the idea, except the clan specific craftables.

Why those? If they were any good, they would be copied by the three great merchant houses and they would say it is theirs and only theirs.

[LoD]

It sounds to me like you're arguing two different points. On one hand I'm hearing that you want mundane "grunt" PCs to have more of a feeling like they mean something to the world.

This is a need/want that I've perceived from other users posting.  I certainly feel that any character can be important and mean something to the world, but not everyone feels that way.

On the other hand I'm hearing that you don't want something like a PC's death to really matter all that much to the survival of a clan. These two things just don't go hand in hand.

I have often seen clans fall by the wayside because the PC is no longer there to continue the presence.  This doesn't mean, however, that the VNPC's, the wealth the clan amassed and the business it was doing would likewise vanish.  But many PC's go where the leaders lead, and it's boring work to sit in an office all day and run a shop like many NPC's or VNPC's may do for a business.

These ideas were not so much to circumvent a PC actually making it happen, but perhaps more to represent organizations that already exist in the gameworld.  To breathe a little more life into the environment where you can see who hires, supports and pays some <inserts profession here>.

As for splitting the playerbase, it's hard to tell.  A PC run clan will split the playerbase far more than any automated clan ever would.  In fact, if you're so concerned with the playerbase being split - there are a lot of better targets than an idea which would keep players in the city rather than in an isolated desert tribe.

But I understand.  I'll see if I can't do something like what I'm suggesting in-game and perhaps later post and demonstrate how it came to pass.  It's hard to convey exactly what I mean without a dynamic discussion, but I appreciate all the feedback so far.  Just a thought.  =)

LoD.

[Xygax]

The last clearly articulated statement from staff to the player base that I caught claimed that no new clans conceived by players would be considered, permitted or supported.

If you can provide a citation of this "no new clans would be permitted" remark, I'll make sure the policy is amended to reflect simply that player-run clans like this should not expect staff-support.

-- X

[Xygax]

I think a lot of the ideas presented here could be made more possible by a more dynamic clans system (ie. code-support allowing players to architect the clans they find fun, interesting, and believably roleplayable).  One other concern with some of the clan concepts you mention, LoD, is that without the direct oversite of a PC leader, a lot of their core tasks could become tedious or unrealistic.

A lumbering/wood-supply/products company with a good leader would definitely be an interesting project, but in the absense of that good leader, a clan like this could quickly decay into a crew of chop-mad lumberjacks (in suspendies and bras, of course) running around and doing nothing besides hacking down the grey forest and spam-crafting.

This isn't intended as an argument against this idea so much as a caution that concepts like this can grow into problems later (as, again, I'm sure the original poster is well aware), especially in the absence of strong leadership.

-- X

[Marc]

This is pretty much possible already LoD.  Hasn't always been, but code changes facilitate it well:

Khan  :roll:  wants to start a mercenary company, the Ra'sparri.  He knows he needs men and a place for training/sleeping.  He looks around and finds a nice automated apartment that will suit his needs.  Renting it he starts bringing those people who he wants involved over and makes sure they've got access to the room too, via code.

Bang.  Clan with guildhouse.

Now this doesn't handle EVERYTHING, but if the staff became very receptive and willing to add new coded clans at the players request, I can see any sort of organization with any sort of staying power being able to get a cool Ra'sparri flag and eventually ra'sparri flagged npc's whether they are guards/shopkeepers, whatever.  If some guidelines were set and a staff member assigned to "PC run organizations" I don't think you'd have any problem finding players willing to step upto the plate and run it.

Eventually this could get expanded, with successful organizations building/buying larger work spaces/facilities still on the autorent system.  If one company dies off another would be able to move in later (once they were able to afford the dramatically more expensive space) and so raw building/code work would not be wasted.

This has a lot of promise!

[aruna]

Sanvean[/url]"] No new clans will be opened (or re-opened). This includes staff and player-driven clans, as well as currently closed clans. This is true unilaterally; no exceptions will be made. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

I believe this must be the statement that Seeker was referring to.
I know that these policy changes were reviewed after a three month period, but whether or not this part of it was kept in place, I do not know.

[Xygax]

Sanvean's remark that "No new clans will be opened (or re-opened)" is referring to staff-sponsored/supported clans, not clans run by players.

-- X

[LoD]

A lumbering/wood-supply/products company with a good leader would definitely be an interesting project, but in the absense of that good leader, a clan like this could quickly decay into a crew of chop-mad lumberjacks (in suspendies and bras, of course) running around and doing nothing besides hacking down the grey forest and spam-crafting.

Well, I don't necessarily see what stops people from hacking down the grey forest and spam-crafting with or without an idea like this.  I use the word "clan" because it has certain properties that I'd like to see as a part of these smaller organizations, but not all of them.

What if this idea was NOT a coded clan, merely some more realistic environment in which players could ply their trade?  If someone WANTED to be a lumberjack, why not have some company that ICly operates as a wood resource to House Kadius or other entities that they could RP belonging to if they wanted.  Something that had an environment (i.e. piles of wood, buyer/seller of wood, some lumberjack clothing/gear)

I suppose my main desire was not to create a new functioning clan that provides PC-led direction to the players as much as to allow for some more realistic "job" environments that already exist.  I know much of this is possible for a PC to start/manage, that's not what I'm ultimately after seeing.  Somewhere that people who live a certain lifestyle can go when they're doing their IC work instead of crafting in taverns, using the same gear for their work as others might do for being a soldier, etc...

So, if you remove the "coded clan" and the "entry fee" and the other things people are reacting to strongly, and just create some of these IC entities that players could attach themselves to via RP, would that make a difference?  I'd started to write up an example long ago about a group of three brothers that ran a small-time wood resource business affiliated with House Kadius.

They were just going to be 3 NPC's in the Red Sun Commons with a couple objects near them (i.e. a pile of logs/wood) and some scripts so that people could learn a bit about who they were.  Maybe some folks would like to RP working for this group of 3 brothers and hang around them, I don't know - but that's the kind of interaction I was after.

The desire is to bring the world alive a bit more, not to compete or displace the present clans in game.

-LoD

[Yokunama]

The Dakan family is also known for a small collection of wood crafts, mostly furniture and pieces of art (small statues, crests, hangings).

-LoD

Natural enemys of the Kaidians? They'd probably not worry about the Darkan family, as long as they are making more profit than they are.

Anyways....
I'd like to see a player-driven clans, groups, or other organizations legal or illegal. Out of my short time here, this is one thing that my little worthless soul has never experienced.

LOD, some of the information in the main post could be used for some great documentation if you wanted such a happening to occur.:wink:

[Cale_Knight]

Automated apartment in Tuluk or Allanak: At least 500 a month.

Permanant clan hall with little or no imm interference/expectations and discounts on food/water/materials: 500 total.

The downside of joining a clan is that it saddles you with responsibilities, duties, obligations, and imm oversight.

This would just be a free place to sleep and store your materials without having to deal with any of that. The independant's dream.

[LoD]

Permanant clan hall with little or no imm interference/expectations and discounts on food/water/materials: 500 total.

This isn't a clan hall.  It's a business.  PC's represent a very small slice of the total populace.  There are a wealth of independant or seemingly independant places of business all throughout the city-states with folks tending a store where they ply their trade.  All I am asking is for some of those business to be given an actual history and potentially opened up to PC's as something to work with should they decide not to join a major clan.

Let's say right now there is stone merchant Joe in Allanak.  An actual PC that sits in a store and sells some stone crafts and/or tools.  Joe needs resources to craft his goods, and there are people that might be able to get those things for him.  So he sets up an operation where he allows people to work for him for a 500 'sid up front fee.  He gives them a little discount off food/water bought from HIS stores, a rough place to sleep and allows them to sell him some raw materials.

He isn't giving them political protection, free water/food, uber secure lodging with lockable gates/doors.  He's providing them a rough place to exist while they work for him.  This is a business relationship.  My vision would be to provide a few of these "operations" that allow a PC to make an honest, if not affluent, living by farming natural resources and living the life of a lumberjack/miner/herbalist/stoneworker.

This businessman is getting 500 'sid from someone they may or may not ever see again, so he figures "good deal".  With the turnover of miners because of the dangers of the desert - he ends up getting expendable labor to help him get more obsidian to fill his contracts.  You may feel like you're part of a real mining operation/business instead of miner #35 out in the sands by yourself.

This whole idea would be about fleshing out an ICly PRE-EXISTING business or oganization to add more flavor to the background of the city-state that isn't a flash-in-the-pan PC operation that flourishes and then dies away in 6 months.  Lots of people complain that they have to quit out in a tavern.  My hope would be that the introduction of a few of these organizations would provide people with the ability to "have a job" that doesn't give them the coded benefits of major clans, but does give them a more realistic environment than a bar in which to play out a role.

-LoD

[Angela Christine]

There are a couple of automated resource harvesting buisnesses already in, maybe the idea could be extended to similar resources that should have almost unlimited demand?  The three well known examples are the Allanak Templarate mining office, the Allanak saltworks and the clay pits.  You bring in lumps of obsidian and you have the choice to sell them at the regular rock shops that buy 5 of any kind of stone, or go to the mining office and sell them directly to the templarate.  The mining office doesn't accept an infinite amount, but it does accept more than 5 chunks per boot.  For the salt and clay buisneses you have to sell your booty in bags, and again they are willing to buy more than 5 per boot.

Logs could be sold on the same system as mined obsidian, an office that will buy up to a certain number of logs every day.  The demand for logs is almost infinite, they are good for building materials, luxery goods, and even fuel.  Sure it is a potentential enviromental catastrophy, but walled cities traditionally like having the forests near the walls cut down, because it improves the sightlines for those defending the walls, the lack of cover discourages animals (and halflings) from approaching the walls, and the cleared land can be put to other purposes like farming or grazing cattle.

Food items might be a good candidate for by-the-bag buisnesses.  Like salts, you might make more or less money if you hauled it to other shops and attempted to haggle away each item one-by-one to grocers, but selling it by the bag is easier and faster.  The slaves and animals owned by the city should be able to eat more food than all the PC and NPC hunters and scavengers combined can ever bring in.  A food depot would have the pleasant affect of encouraging hunters to take the edible parts of their kills with them, knowing that there will be somewhere to sell them.  Finding the ground littered with meat is so discouraging.


Then all your would-be merry band needs is an HQ, which can be easily accomidated by the automated rental code.  Well, unless your band wants to be stationed in the wilderness.  So far the gith and mantis still haven't made apartments available in their territories.   :wink:


Angela Christine

[Anonymous]

I don't like this idea if only because I think it might further undermine what I perceive to be as an already too-low average membership for active clans.

[Cuusardo]

I thought that things were supposed to be rougher for independents.