Sweet 16.

[Qetesh]

So in light of the thread that was started yesterday is 16 looked upon as still being a child on Zalanthas? In the doc's we consider 13 an adult, which is why the youngest age you can play is 13 years old.  The climate is harsh, people can't afford to feed themselves, much less a kid. Also considering the mortality rate in zalanthas as well, make it past forty an you are an old man.


So what do you think, is a 16 year old in the prime of their youth or are they a wet behind the ears kid?

Would you hire a 16 year old to work for you?

Discuss.

[Cale_Knight]

Wet-behind-the-ears? Yeah, definitely.

Kid? Sure. 16 is still pretty young.

Capable of taking on "man's" work? Absolutely. What's the life expectancy in Zalanthas, anyway? If it's even as high as 40, 16 is damn well old enough to start doing grownup work.

[Bestatte]

Considering in -real life- there are some states in the country that allow kids to work at age 15, -and- farmer children are allowed to do hard labor on their family farms as soon as they're old enough to lift a pitchfork..

I don't think 16 is even remotely unreasonable an age to qualify for work in Zalanthas.

A caveat though: I think that at 16, the average commoner will not have had the life experience to qualify them for certain jobs, such as being nobles' aides or agents, or templars, or the kinds of nobles you see as PCs. Such things would require many years of training, and the emotional maturity to handle the role. I'm talking about the character, not the player. The player is already assumed to have the maturity to handle the role through the karma and special app system.

[Ghost]

I would not consider 14 year olds as kids in the game.  In Zalanthas, I believe a 14 year old can take any kind of work 20 year old would.  Sure, 14 year old would not have as much muscles, but a mentor can push him to work harder and make the muscle part a "no problem".

EDIT:  And I have seen some 16 year olds, doing even better work than most 20-25.

[JollyGreenGiant]

During the Medieval period, fourteen was considered adult.  Forty would have been considered old.  War, disease, bad nutrition, poor living conditions, and numerous other factors shortened lifespans significantly.  While disease might not be as big a factor on Zalanthas, harsh living conditions such as heat and lack of water, dangers outside the cities, and a general lack of medicine probably have similar effects.

The idea that a sixteen-year-old is still a child is relative to our modern society.  1000 years ago, apprenticeships started when a child was 8 and ended at 14.  Maturity was forced on them by the conditions they grew up in, they certainly had nothing resembling what we would consider childhood.  From a standpoint of the amount of experience that a person had accumulated, 16 is still "young", but the outlook and experience that a 16-year-old Zalanthan would have far outstrip what a real world youth.

I would have no qualms about hiring someone who was 16.  Personally, I'd hope to see that character played according to Zalanthan standards, perhaps a curious mixture of harsh experience and forced maturity combined with a lack of overall experience resulting in a slight naivete.

[Anonymous]

Well I think the anon poster had a point yesterday, but it was something better handled with an email to the mud if they were that upset by it.

Life is not precious in Zalanthas.  Childhood is not a cherished time in Zalanthas.  Most jobs involve finding either another body or finding another set of hands to be worked to the bone.  16 is plenty old enough for a job.

[Cuusardo]

At 16 a person is still fairly young and impressionable, which can be a good thing for some employers.  People that age usually suck up teaching like a freaking sponge.

However, I could see that someone who was looking for an experienced person wouldn't want to hire a 16 year old who was looking for their first job.  Every employer has the right to refuse anyone employment if they see fit to.

[Malifaxis]

Current 16 year olds are flippin morons.

1000 years ago, at 16, people were already leading squads in the army, making large decisions, running farms, all sorts of crap.  Why?  Higher learning curve.

Those that couldn't fucking learn died.  That is where our current society fails.  We keep the dumb alive.  The dumb breed.  The dumb make fucking idiotic children that learn nothing because they aren't required to learn to survive.

If I was a Byn commander, I would want my squad to be 3/4 pre-20s, for strength of youth, with the remaining 1/4 being veteran minds for tactical advice and logistics.  14 is way adult, in a world like Zalanthas.

[JohnGalt]

In that not so distant past youths were actually military officers, who entered the 'service' at very young ages, as early as 8 years old if I recall.  Master and Commander is a great example of a movie that portrays this.  

Now, I believe there is a level of maturity and wisdom that cannot be reached by age 16, which might limit someone from obtaining certain kinds of work without proving themselves, but in my opinion in Zalanthas age 16 is fully considered adult.  To meet a 16 year old junior merchant would not be unusual in my opinion, assuming they come from a family of noteable background.  To meet a 16 year old senior merchant however, would not be likely.  A degree of wisdom, experience, and simply time to generate allies and resources is needed for any high ranking position regardless of the organization.

For an organization to not wish to hire someone into a junior ranking capacity *only* because of their age being 16, would be poor roleplay in my personal opinion.  However, I strongly doubt anyone is actually using age as the sole criterion for denying someone into a clan.  That's probably just the excuse they're using for not wanting to hire them.

[Maybe42or54]

One rule used on me as a kid.

Old enough to talk shit to the people that can beat your ass, old enough to do their work.

[Xygax]

I'm of the opinion that 13 is an adequate age for most jobs on Zalanthas.  That said, I have seen much older youths played with much less maturity than a Zalanthian 13-year-old, and so I don't see why each hiring decision wouldn't be made on a case-by-case basis.

Certainly telling some kid, "you're too young, piss off" would be an easy way to end a conversation about a job even if your real reason for not wanting to hire them was because you thought maybe they had pointy half-breed ears.  Moreover, there is no entitlement on Zalanthas.  Attaining a certain age may help you qualify for a certain job, but it certainly doesn't bestow upon you a right to have that job.

-- X

[Marauder Moe]

I think it'd be fine to see 13 year olds doing work in just about any clan.  Junior aides, crafters, maybe even in the Byn.  However, I think it should be considered VERY strange for someone younger than 20 to be in any sort of leadership position.  Someone mentioned that there is historical precedance for youths as military leaders, but in Zalanthas there aren't likely any children taught from a young age to be such, at least not in the cities.

[jcarter]

At 14 I was working 8 hour days on a farm during the summer as were a few other kids around my age. It was hard work but we all made it through the summer. I don't see why 16 year olds in Zalanthas can't do things like this. The only jobs I would restrict them from would be the difficult ones where they had to work alone, such as sending them out to collect a bounty alone, having them scout out an area and so forth. Physically they're still not fully grown and developed, but close to it. Mentally they don't have the experience, judgement, or wisdom of someone twice their age.

Edit: Just thought I'd reply to this:

1000 years ago, at 16, people were already leading squads in the army, making large decisions, running farms, all sorts of crap. Why? Higher learning curve.

Those that couldn't fucking learn died. That is where our current society fails. We keep the dumb alive. The dumb breed. The dumb make fucking idiotic children that learn nothing because they aren't required to learn to survive.

Those that were in leadership positions at 16 weren't often the norm. Furthermore, there was still a large population of ignorant and uneducated people 1000 years ago.

[Delirium]

Adolescents tend to be more short-sighted and self-centered than those with more years and experience, but that in no way prevents them from doing an effective job working and/or surviving.  Experience and wisdom are things gained, and maturity only comes with time.  

A sixteen-year old commanding officer that's been a soldier since he was thirteen would be pretty exceptional but not out of the question, IMHO.

[Anonymous]

In harsh climates ages are skewed.

16 would be an adult.

nuff said.

[Barzalene]

One hundred years ago, seven-year-old worked 14 hour days in factories. That's in western society. In some third world countries, they still do. I think the reluctance to see thirteen and sixteen year-olds as adults is an imposition of the modern world on the game world. Right up there with saying racisism is bad, and literacy is good.

[JohnGalt]

I think it'd be fine to see 13 year olds doing work in just about any clan.  Junior aides, crafters, maybe even in the Byn.  However, I think it should be considered VERY strange for someone younger than 20 to be in any sort of leadership position.  Someone mentioned that there is historical precedance for youths as military leaders, but in Zalanthas there aren't likely any children taught from a young age to be such, at least not in the cities.

Alexander the Great conquered most of the known world by 18.  Leadership has nothing to do with age, and everything to do with personal force and charisma.  If a 13 year old can manage to bolster people to follow him/her, then a 13 year old could become a Black Robe for all I care.

[Marauder Moe]

Alright, I should be more specific.  I don't think Allanaki or Tuluki commoner society is capable of producing leaders that young.  Alexander the Great and other young leaders were probably the equivalent of nobles.  A 16-year-old Tor noble leading a group of soldiers would make sense.  16-year-old senior aides and 16-year-old Byn sergeants, not so much in my opinion.

[Larrath]

I think that sixteen year old military leaders would be rare but not unheard of, since this would require a great deal of intelligence and talent in order to make up for the inexperience.
About gruntwork though, I fully believe that work that relies more on skill and less on muscle-work or cunning could be done by any Zalanthan human aged 10 and up.  What's stopping a child from skinning a hide, carving some beads or even a longsword or making a cheap leather or sandcloth cloak?
Thirteen year olds aren't as physically strong as a twenty year old, and neither are sixteen year olds; but one sword is better than no sword, and the young also tend to be a lot quicker and faster, which is no small advantage.

Thirteen year old Bynners are unlikely but not completely impossible if they're well-developed, and fifteen year olds shouldn't be all that unusual.

[Dynas]

This is my personal opinion on the subject, not a staff-supported statement by any means:

In the Medieval period where malnutrition caused people to have stunted growth/physical development rates, I can see fourteen year olds easily being considered as adults as their physical development (body structure) would likely have met that of the adult, especially if the average lifespans ranged up to 40 years or so (in comparison to Zalanthian humans max lifespan of 68, a 14 year old Medieval human would be rated at 24 years in Zalanthas by direct age ratio comparison).

In the present day with roughly 70-75 years as the average lifespan in most western countries, children still develop into sexually mature individuals (whom would technically be considered adults due to their potential for reproduction) yet are considered children due to their mentally (intellectually and emotionally) immature status. Physically they may meet the standard but emotionally/intellectually they are not yet considered suitable by society's standards to be considered adults. In other non-western nations, the age of adulthood declines depending on their societal structure and their own lifespans/quality of life.

In Zalanthas however, people are physically considerably larger (height particularly) than during Earth's medieval period and live longer average lifespans according to the age helpfile which states that humans have an average lifespan of 68 years. While children may be suitable for different tasks, one must take into consideration what traits would benefit a responsibility best and how age affects it, also take into consideration the supply/demand ratio of the population. There are various qualities which may be considered including the following: strength, constitution, intelligence, and emotional maturity.

An aide likely wouldn't need to be as strong or tough as an adult due to the nature of the work though they would likely be required to be as intelligent and emotionally mature as one; there aren't many people that prefer idiot children or temper-tantrum-prone children to competent adults. A combatant on the other hand may require strength, constitution, and emotional maturity since a weak combatant (strength or constitution-wise) is going to be one that falls in battle that much more easily, presenting an added weakness to the group that he/she is affiliated with, placing everyone else in risk. Without emotional maturity, he/she will be a pain in the butt to work with and likely end up being very time-consuming. Could a child serve as a laborer? So long as he/she had physical strength and the constitution to back it up, sure, why not. Emotional maturity may not be so important as the child doesn't have to be trained (not so time-consuming) so if he/she gets out of hand, replacing him/her is easy and the replacement doesn't need anything to get started.

The point being that while a child MAY be suitable for the position, there are requirements to suitability and to test whether each individual child would be suitable is time-consuming and unnecessary when you're in a city of 400,000 people and have a position to offer that is limited and therefore in some degree in demand. Why sell yourself short with a kid that may prove to be a potential problem when you can get yourself an adult that will more likely prove beneficial?

Would a particular organization hire a child? It depends on the organization's rules on recruitment, their standard by which they recruit, and also on whether the recruiter in question wants to deal with a child.

Is the Recruiter lying and blaming the system when it's a personal preference not to recruit children? Why not, it's the easy way out of tiresome situations as has been noted repeatedly on this thread and Zalanthas is hardly a world of justice and equality.

[Cale_Knight]

Point of order, Dynas.

Average life span and life expectancy are two different things. I'd expect the life expectancy in Zalanthas for humans to be much closer to 40 than 70.

[Barzalene]

I don't think you can base maturity on height, nutrition or lifespan. Childhood is partly developmental, but it's largely, and perhaps to a greater extent a societal phenomenon.

[mansa]

Considering Zalanthas, I'd say that 13 is an adult, ready to make decisions regarding the life and death of others.  I mean, look at Ender or Bean, in the  book written by Orson Scott Card, Ender's Game.  That's what I view how Zalanthas should be run.  I also think that Zalanthas is sorta like the planet Dosadi from Frank Herbert's The Dosadi Experiment.

[Delirium]

I also think that Zalanthas is sorta like the planet Dosadi from Frank Herbert's The Dosadi Experiment.

Definitely.  I read that book and I automatically thought "Zalanthas."  The Labyrinth especially, but it's basically applicable to the whole game.  I highly recommend it to Armageddon fans.

[Tamarin]

In real life, we hire 16-year-olds to take care of our kids (ie lifeguards and camp counsellors).  I can only imagine that in a world as harsh as Zalanthas, 16-year-olds are that much more mature and wordly.  And you have to be...what...18 to join the army?  17 according to Michael Moore.  16 is really not that big of a stretch.  In fact, clan leaders should probably be JUMPING on the youngins to get them early on in an attempt to mold them for a specific purpose.