Response to slaving thread thus far...

[Naiona]

With the slaving thread getting to be so long I'm going to use this thread to reply to what we have so far.

First, before anything else, I want to give credit for this idea to Tlaloc, who came up with it.  It took weeks of mulling over before I was even ready to talk about it with other IMMs.

Here is what I see as the main concerns you (people responding) are raising:

1. Worry that players may be forced to play slaves against their will.

2. Concern that those playing slavers may act as OOC bullies and not play their roles realistically and enjoyably for all concerned.

3. Concern that desert elf characters may become constant targets.

4. Concern that slaver PCs may be too powerful against their opponents and create a game imbalance.

5. Worry that a noble house conducting slaving operations would have too many coded and staff supported advantages over PCs they would be targeting.

6.Concern that the game would become more PK and less RP oriented if this were implemented.

7. Concern that IMMs showing favoritism would tell PC slavers to go after targets they didn't OOCly like.

Now - as to my unoffical and personal responses to the concerns thus far.  Before I get to the list I want to add a statement of my own about an issue that wasn't really brought up much in the thread.  If this happens, it will -truly- not touch all that many PCs in the way I am reading that many of you seem to think it might.  With PC slavers very limited in how many slaves they can bring in and when, you will not see a lot of PC on PC slaving going on. You will always see the possibility, however.  We are hoping that the mere -threat- that a PC might just be the one unlucky guy this week is enough to add an element of danger to the game and make people look at desert travel a little more realistically.  Hopefully the Byn will get a lot more contracts out of this, as well as independent mercenary escorts.

Unlike raider groups of the past, there will be a real and very good reason for the PC slavers to focus mainly on NPCs - their own survival and income.  If this is implemented, slaving houses participating will not provide all the yummy perks to slavers that normal guards get.  Instead, these filthy, mercenary scumbags will be expected to earn their own keep and equipment.  They will also be paid for things like gith, halflings, mantis, various lizards and other various nasty vermin for the arena.  If something were implemented in Tuluk, we'd find a similar way for them to focus mainly on NPCs, as well.   This is not meant to turn Borsail into the PC bullies of the known world any more then they already are.  It is meant to flesh out the role of a slaving house more then it currently is as implemented.

Now, to the rest of my responses:

1. This will not under any circumstances be happening. Yes, PCs may well be targeted and forced to either pay a bribe, store their character, fight in the arena or somehow earn their freedom - no player will ever be forced to play a slave. In fact, we are considering a requirement that a special application be submitted if you wish to play a slave under this system.

2. The players in leader positions among the slavers will only be chosen from those without a history of abuse of IC power.  Those who deviate from the guidelines we give to them will not remain long in such a post.

3. Desert elves will be among the least prized of slaves and bring in a low profit.  I don't forsee this coming to pass.  What I see is the possibility of slavers trading with desert elf tribes to point out wayward roundears in need of a collar.

4.  This is a valid concern and one that we will be watching carefully if this is implemented.  One way we will be controlling the situation will be in forcing PC slavers to pay for food and equipment and live off the fees generated by their spoils.

5. By removing the coded advantages and in fact placing extra restrictions on these PCs, there should be no massive unbalance between hunter and hunted.

6. It is hoped that this change will encourage RP by creating a real benefit to working with other characters and not traveling alone.

7.  Any IMM who used their position in an unethical way is breaking the staff contract and subject to dismissal.  Please email the mud if you feel you have proof of such.  This is not something that is -ever- taken lightly.

So, there you have my personal take thus far.  Again, we haven't yet made any decisions at all and this may not happen.   But, taking these answers into account will I hope ease some fears and allow more in depth discussion about other possible issues and concerns.

[Revelations]

From what I've gotten from the post, it seems there won't be very much emphasis on continuing to play the role of the slave after getting caught, seeing how there is consideration in getting to actually play a slave be a special app, and how there are so many opportunities to get out of such a situation. But, if a PC was to decide that they would continue to play a slave, what kind of things will be implemented IG for these players that would make the role enjoyable?

[amoeba]

I for one appreciate the obvious thought and time that went into working on this.  It is quite clear that you folks have wieghed all the possiblities and that gives me much more of a warm and fuzzy about the implementation of the project.  In fact after your more detailed explanation of this I would have to say I would be very excited to see this implemented.  Under these conditions, if my PC got enslaved it would be his own stupid fault, that I can live with.

[sacac]

I forgot what I was going to say so.. the first word that came to my mind was Wow.

And the second word was... I havn't thought of it yet, so I'll get back to you on that.

[Kankman]

Get those cages rolling and whips cracking already. There's free slaves all over the desert!

[Seeker]

As a side concern, I would ask the staff to consider the VNPC population of the tribal peoples.

I mean NOBODY wants to see the Tan Muark gathered up in chains and forced to dance naked in the Arena with a battalion of slavering halflings more than I do; but, when capturing them in the wilds, the presence of the hundreds of other (virtual) gypsies -also- out there gathering berries needs realistically affect the slaving crews.

As a side, side concern, I think it should be cool if it were common knowledge that elves just make crappy slaves.  Unless caught very, very young, so that their only tribe identity is their place with their captors, elvish pride just makes it too much work for too little reward to break them.  Besides that, they're just sooo icky for a sensible Household to even want.

Seeker

[sacac]

I thought that was common knowledge?

[Bestatte]

The concern Revelations mentioned was my primary concern as well, though he wrote it more succinctly than I did.

So okay - I'm enslaved, and I decide to roll with it and -be- a slave. Now what? What will my captors do, ICly, to keep me, the player, occupied? I don't mean mining obsidian 24/7. I mean give me some reason to -not- retire the character, or beg to be put to death.

Something should be worked out about this side of things long before any plan for slavery is implemented.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I would highly prefer getting enslaved to being eaten by Random Tembo NPC #0034.
This idea still gets a thumbs up from me, as it did in the previous thread.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

The concern Revelations mentioned was my primary concern as well, though he wrote it more succinctly than I did.

Ditto.   I'd still like to see that addressed, or at least responded to.  7DV had some good suggestions, but what about the imms?

[Dan]

I will finally add my opinion...

I think that if this were implemented it would add that old feeling of 'fear' back into wilderness roleplay... which is where you will see all of this taking place, in the wastelands and wilds, not within the walls.

People who leave the walls are in desperate situations if not with a house, they likely have few friends and are willing to chance death for a profit. The perfect targets for a group of mercenary slavers.

It makes sense to me... more sense, in fact, than groups of super-powerful red ants that poison you when they bite you. Some of you will know what I am talking about.

I am all for taking part in this roleplay (when I can log back in again) and would gladly accept the heightened threat level it would provide for the rp opportunities.

Weigh the risks against the benefits here, honestly. Risk losing a character for some amazing roleplay. We lose characters all the time on this mud, it is part of the appeal. The possible gain in excellent RP cannot be ignored.

Sometimes you just have to man-up and take the bad times. Roll with them and suck it up. The good times are always there to counter-balance.

I say implement it. Whole-hearted agreement with all the others who say so as well. There is my vote.

[Mulatto_Prophet]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13367

The above link is to an archived post entitled Harshness vs. Gritiness that I think would be of use to anyone who intends to offer any insight to this discussion, or who is just sitting on the fences of this issue.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I would like to see this implemented, and I think most of the naysayers have unreasonable arguements coupled with an unreasonable distrust of the staff.

However, I don't like this emphasis that Naiona has placed on not allowing for players who WANT to be slaves.

So far a lot of options have been outlined:  Bribe your way to freedom, throw yourself to your own death in the arena, store your character.

But I think the option to continue playing your character should also be present, and I think that the staff should work to make sure that the environment is playable for those who want to do so.

Some of the greatest character development comes after something horrible happens to your character.  I don't think wanting to keep playing your character after they have been captured by slavers is completely unreasonable (though the option to retire should be there as well).

[Delirium]

Totally agreed with EvilRoeSlade.

[ale six]

Also totally agree with ERS.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

In all truth, she did not say that you could not play the character. She said she didn't expect to see it often. I am fairly certian that she and the rest of the staff would be pleased to see us RP slaves if caught, to progress the evolution of our lives.

I do agree that much needs to be developed for the slave role before this is implemented.

[da mitey warrior]

I think the primary pc slave target should be escaped muls.  Muls should worry about being enslaved again, by either city state.  Its a good balance to their uber stats and sould be a big part of their RP.  

Slave raiding other pcs wouldn't be as fruitful.  You couldn't enslave people from your own city-state, their families would get mad at you and there'd be a good chance of them escaping.  Tribal peoples are good targets but there arn't many true tribal characters outside of elves.   Slave raiding the other city state would be ideal though it would be rather dangerous for the slavers if caught.

But muls are perfect.

[Vanth]

Not to hijack Naiona's thread, or to discourage anyone from expressing their opinions, but I wanted to share my thoughts on playing out the role of a captured slave.  This is just my opinion and not necessarily shared by other staff.

A slave captured as an adult is very unlikely to gain enough trust ICly to be given any interesting tasks, like assistant, guard, or even pleasure slave.  They are much more likely to be used for menial labor or breeding.  The probability of attempts to escape or attack is high, and most likely, PC nobles would be insulted from such dangerous potential.

And while I absolutely agree that the idea of playing out the psychological changes of coming to terms with being enslaved, is really cool and sounds like it would be fun to play, it's a role requiring intensive OOC trust and patience.  Even with the best of intentions, it's really hard for imms and leaders to coordinate enough roleplay for a slave that has no trust and has to be closely locked up all the time, particularly if most of their tasks are virtual.

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that it's something that should be looked at on a case-by-case basis, with staff coordination, as Naiona's suggested: through special app.

[JollyGreenGiant]

A slave captured as an adult is very unlikely to gain enough trust ICly to be given any interesting tasks, like assistant, guard, or even pleasure slave.  They are much more likely to be used for menial labor or breeding.  The probability of attempts to escape or attack is high, and most likely, PC nobles would be insulted from such dangerous potential.

There is a solution to that problem.  First, let's establish that what we're talking about in terms of PC slaves at this point are the people who can't buy, fight, or otherwise acquire their freedom after having been enslaved.  The assumption so far seems to be that PC slaves would be made slaves for life, but why should that have to be the case?  You could just as easily have the term of indenture be two IG years (or any other period of time), after which the House would consider that the person has worked off their indenture.  This allows for greater freedom in the slave's role, especially if they're told that if they perform extremely well, they could be released early.  Now the PC slave has a bit more incentive to behave and could be entrusted with a greater variety of tasks, perhaps.  When the period of indenture is up, if the PC decides that the life of the slave isn't so bad after all, they could always opt to continue their indenture (special app at that point, perhaps.)

[Anonymous]

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that it's something that should be looked at on a case-by-case basis, with staff coordination, as Naiona's suggested: through special app.

What's the point of making slavery a more common practice among pc's unless you let the players actually live out the concept? I think slavery would be an interesting addition to the game if expanded more across the playerbase, but I honestly see no point in actively trying to enslave pc's within an IC setting if you are just going to expect them to store because of the fact that there will not be "much for them to do". Don't you think it would be fair to create situations and plots for these pc's, and develop special tasks that they would be assigned to do daily so as to increase the fun factor for the players involved? Unless such things were implemented, I really see no point in expanding slavery. The only thing that will result is a huge percentage of apps being dumped into your que weekly. I'm not a staff member, but I do know one thing: I don't want to see even -more- apps in the que waiting for me to be approved. I have too much shit to do already.

[proxie]

So why don't slaves get tossed in one of the Nak farming villages and put under curfew with an unremovable collar? Until they're bought by someone else, they can be laborers there, roleplaying with people who come by or occasionally doing normal things like hunting nearby, foraging for craftables, etc? But if they go too far or are out after dusk, then they'd be fair game to any imms who are on who want to animate a templar and find out exactly what the feck they're doing out there, then crimming them if the answer isn't suitable.

Also, take away their access to the bank, possibly the city stables too, and if they're in the opposite city with that unremovable collar on looking for sanctuary, I'd say they'd be fair game to have their collar replaced with the new city's. Suddenly, Joe the PC ranger/stoneworker is no longer an Allanak slave, expected to mine 'sid or work the fields or hunt scrab. Now Joe is a Tuluk slave, and his new gig is lumberjacking and wood foraging or gathering blah on the grasslands.  

That also gives PCs the chance to find valuable slaves for their bosses... Lord Oash, there is a skilled herbalist in the slave village, he claims to have a tongue for wines. Madam Kadius, I found you an untrained jewelcrafter slave that could be had cheap and he claims to know three locations of gemstones that he will impart onto the House as part of his purchase price.

I'd also say if you as a pc want to be a captured slave, then expect some downtimes. A lot of them. Don't expect someone to handhold you and amuse you. Expect to have the ldesc 'stands over to the side quietly.' a lot while you wait for someone with appropriate rank to send you to go get their slippers. And don't expect trust immediately if you were just hauled in kicking and screaming from the salt flats last RL week.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't know how skippy I am with slavers having their salaries cut unless there's another way to be a member of that clan without being a slaver.

As a player, I've been under the impression that a lot of those npc nomads are kindof buff, a live or mort wounded catch isn't the easiest thing to do in a group. I would like to see some addition of slaving skills at a slow progression to slaver pc's. (Maybe it's time for a slaver subclass.) Subdue, bludgeoning weapons, sap. Things to go for the live catch without depending on mercy working flawlessly.

Just a couple 'sid in the pot.

Proxie

[jstorrie]

Also, take away their access to the bank, possibly the city stables too, and if they're in the opposite city with that unremovable collar on looking for sanctuary, I'd say they'd be fair game to have their collar replaced with the new city's. Suddenly, Joe the PC ranger/stoneworker is no longer an Allanak slave, expected to mine 'sid or work the fields or hunt scrab. Now Joe is a Tuluk slave, and his new gig is lumberjacking and wood foraging or gathering blah on the grasslands.

However, the prime source for slaves would be free citizens of the opposing city, since elves are worthless and tribals are hard to catch. I doubt they would be re-enslaved if they escaped their disgusting Allanaki / barbaric Tuluki masters and returned home.

[proxie]

You're also asking templars and slavers to remember that you're a former Tuluk/Nak citizen returning home. All I see is a slave's collar.

The Burly Winrothol Slaver Sergeant says in sirihish:
"Hey Jimbob... glad to see you escaped those barbarians... what's that? You learned how to work obsidian in the mines? Bitchin', that makes you skilled. That's an extra three fifty to your purchase price right there. What's that, Jimbob? You lived next door to me? Yeah, whatever, you got anybody who can back that one up? No, your drinking buddy don't count, Jimbob. *holds out hand* *receives nothing because Jimbob is a slave* Reputable folk. No? Well, welcome to Tuluk, slave Jimbob. Let me show you around since it's your first time here. Let's go get you a proper collar, Jimbob. You don't happen to make weapons, do you? Salarr's looking for someone to do that, would mean an extra five small for me and my patrol if you'd suit."

Now, before you all start screaming, let's say the first time Jimbob got enslaved, he elected to stay in the role as a slave! Then, for whatever reason, he ran away home. Kindof it's own reward for deciding to make folk have to deal with you as a slave, then changing your mind.

Proxie

[Revelations]

Hmm, now that I think about it, the only part of slavery that might be interesting with the current implications IG would be as a gladiator.

I mean, the gladiator aspect still appeals to me in some regards. To have PCs caught as slaves become gladiators, and live the gladiator life, would be something that'll keep you busy, without having to rely upon other PCs for things to do. If a subculture of slave gladiators evolved, where they are seen as the entertainment stars of today in some regards by the commoner population, but still with alot of limitations, that would be awesome. If any of you have seen Gladiator the movie (with Russell Crowe, a must see if you havn't) then you'll know what I mean. Gladiators could be sponsored by different Houses, with those who come out on top giving more fame and honor to their respective House. Sometimes, when they have given enough credit to their House, they'll be able to travel amidst the commoners under guard and bask in some of the glory of their winnings. An interesting role, perhaps.  :roll:

But, when considering the domestic slave, it doesn't sound too good. Being told what to do all the time, and having to rely upon PCs who may not be on when you are, forces to into a role that isn't very exciting, if at all. And, since those slaves who are caught as adults won't be trusted anytime soon, you're character wouldn't even be given any positions of trust or authority. The best thing that I can think of, that a player playing a domestic slave can do, would be to try and escape, but that gets old after a few tries. So, unless something remarkable comes up regarding the household slave, I vote against PCs being [playing] them, unless they are special apped as Naiona has mentioned.

But, going back to the previous point about gladiators, maybe we can revive the arena and develope another potentially great role for PCs to be able to choose. IMO, it could allow for more of the rough and gritty feeling of Arm as people are allowed to witness battle scenes that they typically would not be able to unless in the middle of a fierce battle during a HRPT, and even then, they only get to see one scroll of it before their character dies. Perhaps Tor would like to test some of their battle maneuvers in the arena, with gladiator slaves as their dummies? There's alot of possibilities there. So, yes or no?  

[sacac]

The T'zai Byn buys slaves, last I checked.