Response to slaving thread thus far...

[Naiona]

With the slaving thread getting to be so long I'm going to use this thread to reply to what we have so far.

First, before anything else, I want to give credit for this idea to Tlaloc, who came up with it.  It took weeks of mulling over before I was even ready to talk about it with other IMMs.

Here is what I see as the main concerns you (people responding) are raising:

1. Worry that players may be forced to play slaves against their will.

2. Concern that those playing slavers may act as OOC bullies and not play their roles realistically and enjoyably for all concerned.

3. Concern that desert elf characters may become constant targets.

4. Concern that slaver PCs may be too powerful against their opponents and create a game imbalance.

5. Worry that a noble house conducting slaving operations would have too many coded and staff supported advantages over PCs they would be targeting.

6.Concern that the game would become more PK and less RP oriented if this were implemented.

7. Concern that IMMs showing favoritism would tell PC slavers to go after targets they didn't OOCly like.

Now - as to my unoffical and personal responses to the concerns thus far.  Before I get to the list I want to add a statement of my own about an issue that wasn't really brought up much in the thread.  If this happens, it will -truly- not touch all that many PCs in the way I am reading that many of you seem to think it might.  With PC slavers very limited in how many slaves they can bring in and when, you will not see a lot of PC on PC slaving going on. You will always see the possibility, however.  We are hoping that the mere -threat- that a PC might just be the one unlucky guy this week is enough to add an element of danger to the game and make people look at desert travel a little more realistically.  Hopefully the Byn will get a lot more contracts out of this, as well as independent mercenary escorts.

Unlike raider groups of the past, there will be a real and very good reason for the PC slavers to focus mainly on NPCs - their own survival and income.  If this is implemented, slaving houses participating will not provide all the yummy perks to slavers that normal guards get.  Instead, these filthy, mercenary scumbags will be expected to earn their own keep and equipment.  They will also be paid for things like gith, halflings, mantis, various lizards and other various nasty vermin for the arena.  If something were implemented in Tuluk, we'd find a similar way for them to focus mainly on NPCs, as well.   This is not meant to turn Borsail into the PC bullies of the known world any more then they already are.  It is meant to flesh out the role of a slaving house more then it currently is as implemented.

Now, to the rest of my responses:

1. This will not under any circumstances be happening. Yes, PCs may well be targeted and forced to either pay a bribe, store their character, fight in the arena or somehow earn their freedom - no player will ever be forced to play a slave. In fact, we are considering a requirement that a special application be submitted if you wish to play a slave under this system.

2. The players in leader positions among the slavers will only be chosen from those without a history of abuse of IC power.  Those who deviate from the guidelines we give to them will not remain long in such a post.

3. Desert elves will be among the least prized of slaves and bring in a low profit.  I don't forsee this coming to pass.  What I see is the possibility of slavers trading with desert elf tribes to point out wayward roundears in need of a collar.

4.  This is a valid concern and one that we will be watching carefully if this is implemented.  One way we will be controlling the situation will be in forcing PC slavers to pay for food and equipment and live off the fees generated by their spoils.

5. By removing the coded advantages and in fact placing extra restrictions on these PCs, there should be no massive unbalance between hunter and hunted.

6. It is hoped that this change will encourage RP by creating a real benefit to working with other characters and not traveling alone.

7.  Any IMM who used their position in an unethical way is breaking the staff contract and subject to dismissal.  Please email the mud if you feel you have proof of such.  This is not something that is -ever- taken lightly.

So, there you have my personal take thus far.  Again, we haven't yet made any decisions at all and this may not happen.   But, taking these answers into account will I hope ease some fears and allow more in depth discussion about other possible issues and concerns.

[Revelations]

From what I've gotten from the post, it seems there won't be very much emphasis on continuing to play the role of the slave after getting caught, seeing how there is consideration in getting to actually play a slave be a special app, and how there are so many opportunities to get out of such a situation. But, if a PC was to decide that they would continue to play a slave, what kind of things will be implemented IG for these players that would make the role enjoyable?

[amoeba]

I for one appreciate the obvious thought and time that went into working on this.  It is quite clear that you folks have wieghed all the possiblities and that gives me much more of a warm and fuzzy about the implementation of the project.  In fact after your more detailed explanation of this I would have to say I would be very excited to see this implemented.  Under these conditions, if my PC got enslaved it would be his own stupid fault, that I can live with.

[sacac]

I forgot what I was going to say so.. the first word that came to my mind was Wow.

And the second word was... I havn't thought of it yet, so I'll get back to you on that.

[Kankman]

Get those cages rolling and whips cracking already. There's free slaves all over the desert!

[Seeker]

As a side concern, I would ask the staff to consider the VNPC population of the tribal peoples.

I mean NOBODY wants to see the Tan Muark gathered up in chains and forced to dance naked in the Arena with a battalion of slavering halflings more than I do; but, when capturing them in the wilds, the presence of the hundreds of other (virtual) gypsies -also- out there gathering berries needs realistically affect the slaving crews.

As a side, side concern, I think it should be cool if it were common knowledge that elves just make crappy slaves.  Unless caught very, very young, so that their only tribe identity is their place with their captors, elvish pride just makes it too much work for too little reward to break them.  Besides that, they're just sooo icky for a sensible Household to even want.

Seeker

[sacac]

I thought that was common knowledge?

[Bestatte]

The concern Revelations mentioned was my primary concern as well, though he wrote it more succinctly than I did.

So okay - I'm enslaved, and I decide to roll with it and -be- a slave. Now what? What will my captors do, ICly, to keep me, the player, occupied? I don't mean mining obsidian 24/7. I mean give me some reason to -not- retire the character, or beg to be put to death.

Something should be worked out about this side of things long before any plan for slavery is implemented.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I would highly prefer getting enslaved to being eaten by Random Tembo NPC #0034.
This idea still gets a thumbs up from me, as it did in the previous thread.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

The concern Revelations mentioned was my primary concern as well, though he wrote it more succinctly than I did.

Ditto.   I'd still like to see that addressed, or at least responded to.  7DV had some good suggestions, but what about the imms?

[Dan]

I will finally add my opinion...

I think that if this were implemented it would add that old feeling of 'fear' back into wilderness roleplay... which is where you will see all of this taking place, in the wastelands and wilds, not within the walls.

People who leave the walls are in desperate situations if not with a house, they likely have few friends and are willing to chance death for a profit. The perfect targets for a group of mercenary slavers.

It makes sense to me... more sense, in fact, than groups of super-powerful red ants that poison you when they bite you. Some of you will know what I am talking about.

I am all for taking part in this roleplay (when I can log back in again) and would gladly accept the heightened threat level it would provide for the rp opportunities.

Weigh the risks against the benefits here, honestly. Risk losing a character for some amazing roleplay. We lose characters all the time on this mud, it is part of the appeal. The possible gain in excellent RP cannot be ignored.

Sometimes you just have to man-up and take the bad times. Roll with them and suck it up. The good times are always there to counter-balance.

I say implement it. Whole-hearted agreement with all the others who say so as well. There is my vote.

[Mulatto_Prophet]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13367

The above link is to an archived post entitled Harshness vs. Gritiness that I think would be of use to anyone who intends to offer any insight to this discussion, or who is just sitting on the fences of this issue.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I would like to see this implemented, and I think most of the naysayers have unreasonable arguements coupled with an unreasonable distrust of the staff.

However, I don't like this emphasis that Naiona has placed on not allowing for players who WANT to be slaves.

So far a lot of options have been outlined:  Bribe your way to freedom, throw yourself to your own death in the arena, store your character.

But I think the option to continue playing your character should also be present, and I think that the staff should work to make sure that the environment is playable for those who want to do so.

Some of the greatest character development comes after something horrible happens to your character.  I don't think wanting to keep playing your character after they have been captured by slavers is completely unreasonable (though the option to retire should be there as well).

[Delirium]

Totally agreed with EvilRoeSlade.

[ale six]

Also totally agree with ERS.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

In all truth, she did not say that you could not play the character. She said she didn't expect to see it often. I am fairly certian that she and the rest of the staff would be pleased to see us RP slaves if caught, to progress the evolution of our lives.

I do agree that much needs to be developed for the slave role before this is implemented.

[da mitey warrior]

I think the primary pc slave target should be escaped muls.  Muls should worry about being enslaved again, by either city state.  Its a good balance to their uber stats and sould be a big part of their RP.  

Slave raiding other pcs wouldn't be as fruitful.  You couldn't enslave people from your own city-state, their families would get mad at you and there'd be a good chance of them escaping.  Tribal peoples are good targets but there arn't many true tribal characters outside of elves.   Slave raiding the other city state would be ideal though it would be rather dangerous for the slavers if caught.

But muls are perfect.

[Vanth]

Not to hijack Naiona's thread, or to discourage anyone from expressing their opinions, but I wanted to share my thoughts on playing out the role of a captured slave.  This is just my opinion and not necessarily shared by other staff.

A slave captured as an adult is very unlikely to gain enough trust ICly to be given any interesting tasks, like assistant, guard, or even pleasure slave.  They are much more likely to be used for menial labor or breeding.  The probability of attempts to escape or attack is high, and most likely, PC nobles would be insulted from such dangerous potential.

And while I absolutely agree that the idea of playing out the psychological changes of coming to terms with being enslaved, is really cool and sounds like it would be fun to play, it's a role requiring intensive OOC trust and patience.  Even with the best of intentions, it's really hard for imms and leaders to coordinate enough roleplay for a slave that has no trust and has to be closely locked up all the time, particularly if most of their tasks are virtual.

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that it's something that should be looked at on a case-by-case basis, with staff coordination, as Naiona's suggested: through special app.

[JollyGreenGiant]

A slave captured as an adult is very unlikely to gain enough trust ICly to be given any interesting tasks, like assistant, guard, or even pleasure slave.  They are much more likely to be used for menial labor or breeding.  The probability of attempts to escape or attack is high, and most likely, PC nobles would be insulted from such dangerous potential.

There is a solution to that problem.  First, let's establish that what we're talking about in terms of PC slaves at this point are the people who can't buy, fight, or otherwise acquire their freedom after having been enslaved.  The assumption so far seems to be that PC slaves would be made slaves for life, but why should that have to be the case?  You could just as easily have the term of indenture be two IG years (or any other period of time), after which the House would consider that the person has worked off their indenture.  This allows for greater freedom in the slave's role, especially if they're told that if they perform extremely well, they could be released early.  Now the PC slave has a bit more incentive to behave and could be entrusted with a greater variety of tasks, perhaps.  When the period of indenture is up, if the PC decides that the life of the slave isn't so bad after all, they could always opt to continue their indenture (special app at that point, perhaps.)

[Anonymous]

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that it's something that should be looked at on a case-by-case basis, with staff coordination, as Naiona's suggested: through special app.

What's the point of making slavery a more common practice among pc's unless you let the players actually live out the concept? I think slavery would be an interesting addition to the game if expanded more across the playerbase, but I honestly see no point in actively trying to enslave pc's within an IC setting if you are just going to expect them to store because of the fact that there will not be "much for them to do". Don't you think it would be fair to create situations and plots for these pc's, and develop special tasks that they would be assigned to do daily so as to increase the fun factor for the players involved? Unless such things were implemented, I really see no point in expanding slavery. The only thing that will result is a huge percentage of apps being dumped into your que weekly. I'm not a staff member, but I do know one thing: I don't want to see even -more- apps in the que waiting for me to be approved. I have too much shit to do already.

[proxie]

So why don't slaves get tossed in one of the Nak farming villages and put under curfew with an unremovable collar? Until they're bought by someone else, they can be laborers there, roleplaying with people who come by or occasionally doing normal things like hunting nearby, foraging for craftables, etc? But if they go too far or are out after dusk, then they'd be fair game to any imms who are on who want to animate a templar and find out exactly what the feck they're doing out there, then crimming them if the answer isn't suitable.

Also, take away their access to the bank, possibly the city stables too, and if they're in the opposite city with that unremovable collar on looking for sanctuary, I'd say they'd be fair game to have their collar replaced with the new city's. Suddenly, Joe the PC ranger/stoneworker is no longer an Allanak slave, expected to mine 'sid or work the fields or hunt scrab. Now Joe is a Tuluk slave, and his new gig is lumberjacking and wood foraging or gathering blah on the grasslands.  

That also gives PCs the chance to find valuable slaves for their bosses... Lord Oash, there is a skilled herbalist in the slave village, he claims to have a tongue for wines. Madam Kadius, I found you an untrained jewelcrafter slave that could be had cheap and he claims to know three locations of gemstones that he will impart onto the House as part of his purchase price.

I'd also say if you as a pc want to be a captured slave, then expect some downtimes. A lot of them. Don't expect someone to handhold you and amuse you. Expect to have the ldesc 'stands over to the side quietly.' a lot while you wait for someone with appropriate rank to send you to go get their slippers. And don't expect trust immediately if you were just hauled in kicking and screaming from the salt flats last RL week.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't know how skippy I am with slavers having their salaries cut unless there's another way to be a member of that clan without being a slaver.

As a player, I've been under the impression that a lot of those npc nomads are kindof buff, a live or mort wounded catch isn't the easiest thing to do in a group. I would like to see some addition of slaving skills at a slow progression to slaver pc's. (Maybe it's time for a slaver subclass.) Subdue, bludgeoning weapons, sap. Things to go for the live catch without depending on mercy working flawlessly.

Just a couple 'sid in the pot.

Proxie

[jstorrie]

Also, take away their access to the bank, possibly the city stables too, and if they're in the opposite city with that unremovable collar on looking for sanctuary, I'd say they'd be fair game to have their collar replaced with the new city's. Suddenly, Joe the PC ranger/stoneworker is no longer an Allanak slave, expected to mine 'sid or work the fields or hunt scrab. Now Joe is a Tuluk slave, and his new gig is lumberjacking and wood foraging or gathering blah on the grasslands.

However, the prime source for slaves would be free citizens of the opposing city, since elves are worthless and tribals are hard to catch. I doubt they would be re-enslaved if they escaped their disgusting Allanaki / barbaric Tuluki masters and returned home.

[proxie]

You're also asking templars and slavers to remember that you're a former Tuluk/Nak citizen returning home. All I see is a slave's collar.

The Burly Winrothol Slaver Sergeant says in sirihish:
"Hey Jimbob... glad to see you escaped those barbarians... what's that? You learned how to work obsidian in the mines? Bitchin', that makes you skilled. That's an extra three fifty to your purchase price right there. What's that, Jimbob? You lived next door to me? Yeah, whatever, you got anybody who can back that one up? No, your drinking buddy don't count, Jimbob. *holds out hand* *receives nothing because Jimbob is a slave* Reputable folk. No? Well, welcome to Tuluk, slave Jimbob. Let me show you around since it's your first time here. Let's go get you a proper collar, Jimbob. You don't happen to make weapons, do you? Salarr's looking for someone to do that, would mean an extra five small for me and my patrol if you'd suit."

Now, before you all start screaming, let's say the first time Jimbob got enslaved, he elected to stay in the role as a slave! Then, for whatever reason, he ran away home. Kindof it's own reward for deciding to make folk have to deal with you as a slave, then changing your mind.

Proxie

[Revelations]

Hmm, now that I think about it, the only part of slavery that might be interesting with the current implications IG would be as a gladiator.

I mean, the gladiator aspect still appeals to me in some regards. To have PCs caught as slaves become gladiators, and live the gladiator life, would be something that'll keep you busy, without having to rely upon other PCs for things to do. If a subculture of slave gladiators evolved, where they are seen as the entertainment stars of today in some regards by the commoner population, but still with alot of limitations, that would be awesome. If any of you have seen Gladiator the movie (with Russell Crowe, a must see if you havn't) then you'll know what I mean. Gladiators could be sponsored by different Houses, with those who come out on top giving more fame and honor to their respective House. Sometimes, when they have given enough credit to their House, they'll be able to travel amidst the commoners under guard and bask in some of the glory of their winnings. An interesting role, perhaps.  :roll:

But, when considering the domestic slave, it doesn't sound too good. Being told what to do all the time, and having to rely upon PCs who may not be on when you are, forces to into a role that isn't very exciting, if at all. And, since those slaves who are caught as adults won't be trusted anytime soon, you're character wouldn't even be given any positions of trust or authority. The best thing that I can think of, that a player playing a domestic slave can do, would be to try and escape, but that gets old after a few tries. So, unless something remarkable comes up regarding the household slave, I vote against PCs being [playing] them, unless they are special apped as Naiona has mentioned.

But, going back to the previous point about gladiators, maybe we can revive the arena and develope another potentially great role for PCs to be able to choose. IMO, it could allow for more of the rough and gritty feeling of Arm as people are allowed to witness battle scenes that they typically would not be able to unless in the middle of a fierce battle during a HRPT, and even then, they only get to see one scroll of it before their character dies. Perhaps Tor would like to test some of their battle maneuvers in the arena, with gladiator slaves as their dummies? There's alot of possibilities there. So, yes or no?  

[sacac]

The T'zai Byn buys slaves, last I checked.

[ShaiHulud]

I really like the idea.  I don't know if was said before, but I think this will make all those escaped mul concepts I see alot more fun and realistic, as they would likely bring alot of coin to be returned to their masters.  I would like to create a concept of being an escaped slave(mul or otherwise) just in hopes of them coming after me.  The story, short or not would be a great opportunity for rp and fun for all involved.
Maybe that is more like bounty hunting than slaving. *shrugs*

If this goes through..I will definately make up an escaped slave and be a known target by slavers. *barrier*

[Dracul]

No PCs will be forced to play slaves

Naiona had said this -several- times. The imposed system will mainly be the borsail slavers going after npcs. Gith, nomads, wild beasts. On the -rare- ocassion where they go after pcs, first of all, they have to capture them

Don't want to be captured? Put up a good fight, cut down one of the slavers, then put an arrow in one of their throats as you jump up your kank, and flee.
They might accidentally kill you in the process. Oh, and if they do capture you (if you didn't bribe them to leave you bed) your buddies can buy you, you can try to escape, etc. (its in the imms post afterall...). Or you can choose to store your pc.

Oh, you don't want to store? Would you rather have been eaten by a scrab, cut down by gith , or ________?

I'm coming off kinda harsh because although I'd rather have not, I read all the posts in the slaving threads, and keep seeing people reference things as arguments which Naiona specifically did not say.


First of all, this exists virtually, so it should exist. Period. But I'm sure there will be a leader within the slavers, and there will be all the slaver pcs. There may be another pc whose job might be specifically to handle the incoming slaves (which would be...mostly npcs).

IF you choose to play a slave...as someone pointed out, the byn buys slaves. Hell, to some people, free food, free water. Training. Why bother trying to not be a slave? Afterall, you can always make a break for it later...

There are -a lot- of opportunies for the slaves. I alone have though of several routes, and think it would be fun to be enslaved now. If you are enslaved, and are so utterly hopless as a character (ICly) that you cannot find your way out of it, and then still want to play....

>>There will probally be a time of intensive rp with a PC who will 'break you in' as a slave. Now, there should of course be an ooc asking for graphic violence, which if allowed...well there will be graphic violence , if not...it'll be less detailed.

>>Depending on your character you may be given some small tasks, although likely there will be a small time where you are locked within a compound (and considering for pc interaction, maybe some barracks, or....who knows)

>>You could at anytime be bought up by the Byn. Escape, or be bought by a noblehouse. Eventually, you will be sold off.
And I'm completely forgetting the arena...yup.


Now if this happens to you...too much? Store...consider it you died, shit happens...alot. Whats wrong with it turning you into a vnpc rather than outright killing you.

One thing I'll say if you end up being a slave the change ldesc stands here waiting to the side.  Yeah...could be boring...but I remmeber one character...who did an incredible job as someones aide. Stood off...didnt do much herself. But emoted...(being ICly quiet doesnt mean being oocly quiet) and set the scene...she did -such- an amazing job I was wowed.

[Bestatte]

Dracul, I haven't seen anyone say they "refuse to play a slave," or that they would like to start their character out as a slave.

Most of us have only one concern:

IF our PC is captured, and IF we are enslaved, and IF we WANT to roleplay that slavery out and -not- store our character/escape/pay for freedom - then there needs to be an actual program in place to accommodate this.

If there is no program in place to accommodate this, THEN - if I understand everyone else's concerns correctly (and since some agreed with me so I have to assume so), THEN - we think it isn't a good idea.

Otherwise, awesome.

[Cale_Knight]

The imposed system will mainly be the borsail slavers going after npcs. Gith, nomads, wild beasts.

This is already in place.

[amoeba]

Dracul, you may want to read the responses a little closer. The arguements you reference are from people chomping at the bit to -be- slaves. Go figure.  Never knew there would be so many.  I'm not one of them and I think the issue of what to do if you are captured and -don't- want to be one have been addressed well.

[Dracul]

Well I apologize for misreading some of the posts then, it seems then I looked at them in a wrong light.

Although another comment to add, I think Naiona or Vanth reccomended special apps...I would hope that ICly enslaved characters, could just continue playing without any need to get approval for playing a slave. Which might be as it is anyways.

But again, sorry that I must have read some things incorrectly. Everything still stands though.

[Morrolan]

I would like to second the idea of a slave-gladiator culture (the movie Gladiator itself, but also many other historical references are available...some of them on the Gladiator DVD).  RPTs for the new clan could be posted in the taverns of Allanak--specifically for Arena shows.  One a week (RL)?  One a month (RL)?

As far as getting into the clan:

There were people in the Roman Empire who actually volunteered from gladitorial slavery.  That would also make sense in the Tektolnes Ampitheater of Death and Glory (tm).  Also, captured criminals, war captives, wild beasts, and such were used in the games.

Other thoughts:

Yes, I think this might be a bit of a drain on applications to other fighting organizations--noble houses, the Byn, the Guards of the city-states.  I also think that it would add a new dimension of roleplay that would not only be exciting for the players involved, but also link to:

a) Everyday lives of the commoners--something to talk about with one another at the tavern.  Arguments, bets, fights, and the dreams of the commoner of having their names on all the city's lips.

b) The noble houses (I)--Borsail would have a reason to go on their raids, though virtual raids would certainly happen as well. [Allowing for special-apped characters, beasts loaded by imms, etc.]

c)  The noble houses (II)--Other noble houses could sponsor specific slaves for training, either purchased slaves or soldiers who have had discipline problems.  Also, since there would be regular arena events in Allanak, once in a while houses could sponsor non-slave champions.

d)  Politics--assassins sneaking poisons onto the blades of gladiators, nobles making bets, giving rewards, and getting public exposure, as well as getting into trouble and being forced to become gladiators themselves.  Templars getting to speak before audiences, extolling loyalty to Tektolnes.

e) Economy--Houses requesting special armor and weapons for their champions: picked for showmanship as much as effectiveness.  Houses showing off their wealth and power, possibly helping recruiting efforts.  PC merchants know that there will be players in the area in a festive mood!

f)  OOC--players will get a chance to see some good emoting in combat, take part in politics and dramas (at one level or another), and have a chance to gather and interact to discuss more than the latest dangers on the roads or harshness of the sandstorms.

g)  The current slavery discussion--If players are to be kept as slaves, this will be one option for the more combat oriented characters.  It answers the questions of giving the players something to do.

Okay, I was going to write more, but instead...thank you for reading this far.  I hope I have contributed to the discussion, and comments are appreciated.

Morrolan

[ShaiHulud]

Great post Morrolan.  If that doesn't win the pessimists over I don't know what will.

[Northlander]

I feel there's merit in introducing this for a test period even if retirement is the only way out for the friend- and penniless. Sure, it's a new type of character-ending raiders. Only raiders which are accepted by society and give away several believable options of escape.

Wandering independents should by some things be specifically targeted as it's a highly risky thing to be. Life should be easier in groups and there should be strong feelings both within these and between them.

PCs always make big impacts in player psyches. This slaving won't have to be on a large scale for its effects to be felt. Have a trial, it'll be fun.

[HardCarbon]

Great post Morrolan.  If that doesn't win the pessimists over I don't know what will.

Heck.. I'll just put nice fat bounties  on the heads of slavers... The ones from the enemy city of course...  Expensive.. but fun.

[jstorrie]

You're also asking templars and slavers to remember that you're a former Tuluk/Nak citizen returning home. All I see is a slave's collar.

The Nakkis may be inclined to do that sort of thing, but Tulukis actually have their freeman status tattooed on the backs of their hands.

[Alamos]

I recall that players could apply for a gladiator PC which could be played on special occasions.  I never played one so I'm not sure how exactly IMMs and PCs coordinated in order to use the gladiator characters during arena events, BUT I'm fairly certain there was a time when this system existed.

The interesting point here is that the player who possessed the gladiator PC was still allowed to have a 'main' character which they would play the majority of the time (if I remember correctly).

This could create the option for an enslaved character's player to request his avatar be turned into a 'secondary' 'on-demand' type of character.  The player could revisit his slave when it would be appropriate for him to play out important actions IC, such as arena fighting, or any other unusual task that might be given to the untrusted, non-elite slave caste.  Meanwhile, when the player has nothing to do with his slave, the slave can go about his virtual duties while the player enjoys Armageddon in the form of his new, primary character.  This way, the player can still play out the life of his slave, and be involved in the interesting character development inherent to the process, and avoid the majority of time that would be spent doing boring chores or nothing at all.

I do not see how an enslaved character captured after childhood can be played regularly and have any fun or meaningful roles because of how slavery works in Zalanthas.  Sure, it is a common and even fundamental role in the world, but not a role meant for the players of the game world.  Anyone attempting to devote their time to such a role will have to be either a very, very special breed of roleplayer, or have a very, very special scheme worked out with the staff.

I cannot provide proof of this gladiator character system, so I may have just pulled it out of very dark place responsible for a number of nasty and impure things, but if this system did exist successfully at one time, then I don't see how the concept cannot be implemented once again in this scenario.

The major concern I'm sure all of you have is *OH NO* Two characters at once?!?!?!  HAX!  SPLOITZ!  Let me just say this before you go to the bad bad place of power abuse.  The IMMs of Armageddon already have a system in place to deal with this.  Karma.  A player's karma represents his relationship with the staff and can be used to judge whether such a circumstance would be handled appropriately.  This option would not necessarily be available to every Amos who got his ass branded.

Well?

[EvilRoeSlade]

Not to hijack Naiona's thread, or to discourage anyone from expressing their opinions, but I wanted to share my thoughts on playing out the role of a captured slave.  This is just my opinion and not necessarily shared by other staff.

A slave captured as an adult is very unlikely to gain enough trust ICly to be given any interesting tasks, like assistant, guard, or even pleasure slave.  They are much more likely to be used for menial labor or breeding.  The probability of attempts to escape or attack is high, and most likely, PC nobles would be insulted from such dangerous potential.

And while I absolutely agree that the idea of playing out the psychological changes of coming to terms with being enslaved, is really cool and sounds like it would be fun to play, it's a role requiring intensive OOC trust and patience.  Even with the best of intentions, it's really hard for imms and leaders to coordinate enough roleplay for a slave that has no trust and has to be closely locked up all the time, particularly if most of their tasks are virtual.

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that it's something that should be looked at on a case-by-case basis, with staff coordination, as Naiona's suggested: through special app.

I made my first post fully understanding the difficulties of making a captured slave into a viable and interesting role for a player character, having played extensively in House Borsail.

I've bolded the portion of Vanth's post that I want to respond to specifically.

I remember I once E-mailed Tlaloc asking if I could be a mul slave of the T'zai Byn.  He replied saying that since mul slaves owned by the Byn weren't allowed to leave the compound, it wasn't a role he was willing to give to a PC.  But then he changed his mind.  He modified the Byn's policy in order to lighten the restrictions on muls with an eye for player characters.  Then he let me and a few others play slaves for the Byn.  No one's head imploded.  No one went out of character to say "This is ridiculous!  The T'zai Byn's policy previously disallowed mul slaves to leave the compound!"  The MUD wasn't destroyed in a hail of fire and ash.  All that happened is that a couple of players who were allowed to play muls in the Byn ended up having a great time (not me, unfortunately, partly because I didn't grasp the mentality of a slave well enough, and partly because I fell off the Shield Wall and died on my first mission.)

Yes, that's right.  Tlaloc changed things around to make the role of a slave more playable in his clan, and succeeded.

The same thing could happen here.

The special application system is a good idea, because immortals should be able to evaluate whether or not a player is capable of handling the role of a slave.  It's no easy task.

Also, the player should be able to outline in their special application exactly what they want their character to do for whatever clan owns them now that they're a slave, be it guard, assistant, or pleasure slave.

Finally, the player should agree OOCly not to escape without getting approval from their clan immortals, just like slave players must do now (I assume, anyway).  That way the players of those who own them will have enough OOC trust of the slave to allow them to do important tasks.

Anyway, that's a rudimentary system that I think could work to allow captured characters to become slave characters.  I figure if I'm saying what should happen, I should also say how it should happen.

[adrien]

well i dont mind if im catured and turned into a slave but the world is big and well il run to a safe spot if i can and have some fun rping the torment and life of a outcast

[jmordetsky]

Unlike raider groups of the past, there will be a real and very good reason for the PC slavers to focus mainly on NPCs - their own survival and income. If this is implemented, slaving houses participating will not provide all the yummy perks to slavers that normal guards get. Instead, these filthy, mercenary scumbags will be expected to earn their own keep and equipment. They will also be paid for things like gith, halflings, mantis, various lizards and other various nasty vermin for the arena. If something were implemented in Tuluk, we'd find a similar way for them to focus mainly on NPCs, as well. This is not meant to turn Borsail into the PC bullies of the known world any more then they already are. It is meant to flesh out the role of a slaving house more then it currently is as implemented.

I think this is an AWESOME IDEA that will create an excellent dynamic to the game. However, I would like to see, and I think this is critical

•   You must increase the number of non-aggro  or aggro slavable NPCs that are in the desert.

Otherwise you'll just have PC slavers trying to enslave the few PCs they run across in the desert.  When I say desert based NPCs the things I mean are:

1)   Social dwellings that don't fall under Allanaki rule. IE Small tribal villages, desert cave dwellers, a small family taken up in a broken down wagon etc, etc, etc
2)   Wandering nomads both human, elven, half-elven
3)   Small or solo Gith scouting parties
4)   Small level (non-merchant house) caravans

In order to avoid the PC tribal, hunter and desert elf populations  being constantly targeted by slavers, there will need to be other alternatives. This would help bolster the raiding community as well which are a similar mindset really, I can see raiders killing off adults, taking all the goods and selling the children to Borsail.

The other thing is to randomly generate NPC spawn locations. The last thing we want is to see the same thing we see with hunters who login after reboot and run to all the spawn points.  Plus being a slaver who targeted NPCs rather then PCs would be fun for about 10 minutes until you figured out all the "hotspots".

Any way, love the idea of PC slavers. Not so keen on too many PCs being enslaved (for obvious reasons) However, if executed correctly, this will ROCK.

The important thing to remeber is that PC being enslaved is similar to it being killed depending on the players mindset. Being killed sucks, but arm wouldn't be arm if you didn't run the risk of being killed. The issue is playability, and keeping it limited  so that in the first two weeks of implementation the entire community of desert travellers aren't enslaved by the new community of slavers.


EDIT: (someone's PM made me want to elaborate on this a bit more)

When I first head about this, I was like, "Um what? No."

But I've been a firm proponent that we need more support of the raider role. We have tons of support for hunters....etc.

To me slaving is just raiding...but taking prisoners. If once in a while a PC gets raided, hey no biggy right? Sucks, but thats why we play Arm. Slavery imho in just death with additional options ....

But the thing is, right now, raiders just try to raid PCs. And thats why it doesn't work, because there isn't any other option. People take death very personally and raiders quickly become the talk of the town, when really a few minor desert raids shouldn't cause that much of a stir in the city community.  

But we increased targettable NPCs, limiting but not excluding attacks on PCI think we'd have something that would be very successful.

[Halaster]

I think that if this were implemented it would add that old feeling of 'fear' back into wilderness roleplay... which is where you will see all of this taking place, in the wastelands and wilds, not within the walls.

And this is one of the primary reasons for the idea in the first place.  The desert, if you even half-way know what you're doing, is not dangerous.

[Halaster]

IF our PC is captured, and IF we are enslaved, and IF we WANT to roleplay that slavery out and -not- store our character/escape/pay for freedom - then there needs to be an actual program in place to accommodate this.

When we first started discussing this as Imms, I was probably one of the biggest opposers to the idea, and this was one of the main reasons (though not the only).  We are currently discussing this topic, so we'll be sure it's addressed before we do anything with this whole idea.

The idea isn't fully fleshed out, and that's why we brought it here to get feedback from the playerbase.  While I'm not opposed to the idea anymore (Naiona and others convinced me it can work), I still want to make sure things like this are addressed.

So thanks for the feedback, everyone, so far.  Keep it coming.

[Naiona]

When I say that PC Slavers will mainly be going after NPCs in the desert I am referring -mostly- to animals.  The arena has a huge need for all sorts of nasty things for the arena and I see no reason why these PC slavers could not make the bulk of their living expenses by bringing in beasts.

My thought is there will be a cage (already coded - just need the script to attach to it) that they will toss their prey into and they'll receive credit based on what they brought in that day.   Bringing in a small handful of spiders or scrab might be the day's haul. Or they might be ambitious and out to seek some gith and mantis.  

If this system works out well, we might even be able to use a modified version of the same script to give credit for skins and shells to Kadian and Salarri hunters.

I should also mention that if this goes into a test period, it will be limited to Borsail, though in the future it could expand to Winrothol.  However - that doesn't mean that angry nobles and templars couldn't send raiding parties (and hire mercenaries) to extract their revenge on Borsail and Allanaki targets, and I can see making a few desert posts or stations available in game for this type of purpose, as well.  Again, remember this is me talking unofficially and does not reflect any plans set in motion by staff thus far.

[Bestatte]

See, I would LOVE to have Winrothol send a slaver party out to capture a Borsail noble, spy, or aide, and enslave them and "break" them of their evil southern ways (or attempt to) and brainwash them or force them to spill all the plans Allanak has for their evil plots and stuff.

But in any case, thanks Halaster for bringing your concern up with the rest of the staff, and thanks staff for taking this "what will I do AS a slave, IF I actually want to RP it out" issue into consideration.

[HardCarbon]

IF our PC is captured, and IF we are enslaved, and IF we WANT to roleplay that slavery out and -not- store our character/escape/pay for freedom - then there needs to be an actual program in place to accommodate this.

When we first started discussing this as Imms, I was probably one of the biggest opposers to the idea, and this was one of the main reasons (though not the only).  We are currently discussing this topic, so we'll be sure it's addressed before we do anything with this whole idea.

The idea isn't fully fleshed out, and that's why we brought it here to get feedback from the playerbase.  While I'm not opposed to the idea anymore (Naiona and others convinced me it can work), I still want to make sure things like this are addressed.

So thanks for the feedback, everyone, so far.  Keep it coming.

 Just remember.. and allow for..  'brutal world' works both ways.

[jmordetsky]

When I say that PC Slavers will mainly be going after NPCs in the desert I am referring -mostly- to animals.  The arena has a huge need for all sorts of nasty things for the arena and I see no reason why these PC slavers could not make the bulk of their living expenses by bringing in beasts.

My thought is there will be a cage (already coded - just need the script to attach to it) that they will toss their prey into and they'll receive credit based on what they brought in that day.   Bringing in a small handful of spiders or scrab might be the day's haul. Or they might be ambitious and out to seek some gith and mantis.  

I think this would be very cool. Buy why limit it to animals? Seems a little unrealistic. I mean, sentient(sp?) creatures (especially children) would have a much higher value and would probably come with less danger factor. Why not implement some biped NPCs for slaving as well?

Also would weapons like nets, mancatchers and rolling cages be purchasable to anyone? Or just slavers? I'd personally like to see slaving being a real merc job, IE staffed mostly by entrepreneurial  indies. I think House sponsored raids would be on a much larger scale.

I would love to see the northern slave auctions in Allanak available for slavers to sell off various NPCs. I'd also love to see an "escape" factor added to things like nets and cages so that every so often three gith could break out of the rolling cage and start causing havok at the auctions. Would add an nice element of danger.

[Naiona]

It would not be limited to animals. Those would just be the easiest and most often attempted targets.

[jmordetsky]

It would not be limited to animals. Those would just be the easiest and most often attempted targets.

I'm diggin it. Are there plans to create a more alive desert as targets for slaving pcs? NPC travelers and such?

[Revelations]

It would not be limited to animals. Those would just be the easiest and most often attempted targets.

I'm diggin it. Are there plans to create a more alive desert as targets for slaving pcs? NPC travelers and such?

About the live desert, I think there was a project currently that invovled implementing the simdesert. Is that still going on? Can we as players send in ideas about that?

[Linedel]

My thought is there will be a cage (already coded - just need the script to attach to it) that they will toss their prey into and they'll receive credit based on what they brought in that day. Bringing in a small handful of spiders or scrab might be the day's haul. Or they might be ambitious and out to seek some gith and mantis.

If this system works out well, we might even be able to use a modified version of the same script to give credit for skins and shells to Kadian and Salarri hunters.

This isn't a positive thing for an intensive [bold]roleplaying[/bold] environment.  Paragraph kept short to maintain civility, I feel that strongly!  (Referring to the automated collection/quest thing, not so much the slavery thing.)

[Naiona]

Linendel,

While the wagon script thing may or may not happen, it will never turn into an automated quest.  Multiple PCs RP'ng will have to take part in any hunt, and the pay at the end would not come from the NPC at the cage, but from PC superiors.  The cage would be no more a tool then the Nenyuk is, just a way to avoid having to have an IMM present to account for and dispose of beasts brought in (which is how we have actually been doing slaving hunts of non-pcs for a while now).

[Seeker]

Merchant tokens for non-city dwellers should work as a get-out-of-jail free card (if they're not... um... accidently misplaced by the slavers during capture)  because the powers that be want goods and services too still flow in from the outlands.

And the more I think about this, the more dead slavers with a surprised look on their faces I keep imagining.

Seeker

[Halaster]

It would not be limited to animals. Those would just be the easiest and most often attempted targets.

I'm diggin it. Are there plans to create a more alive desert as targets for slaving pcs? NPC travelers and such?

About the live desert, I think there was a project currently that invovled implementing the simdesert. Is that still going on? Can we as players send in ideas about that?

Sorta.  It's done in one area (somewhere in the tablelands is all I'll say).  Someone then adapted it to a couple of limited areas in the southlands.  Someone then adapted parts of it to various locations in the middle of the world and the northlands.   So it's not everywhere, but it's made some headway.  It's one of those projects that's pretty complicated, so slow moving.  People add it to their areas as they have the time and inclination.

But, in general, it is still happening and moving forward - slowly but surely.

If you have ideas related to SimDesert, feel free to send them to me.  If they involve other peoples' areas, I'll forward it.

[Akaramu]

I havent read most of those two threads, so I dont know if this has been brought up before. If it has, apologies.

I see a possible problem even with the rules mentioned: It would likely be impossible for most players to tell whether or not they will enjoy this new slave role at the time they are being captured. They dont know how busy the new master will keep them, how much interaction they will be getting, if their playing times will match those of others etc.

If my PC was about to be enslaved, but I enjoyed my current role, I'd probably try to bribe my way out of it simply out of fear that I am trading something enjoyable for something that will bore me. It could be a blast, but I'd rather not take the risk not knowing how much interaction / activity awaits me as a slave.

[skeetdaddle]

Three thoughts:

1: Would NPC slavers be involved in these "captures"? If so, I think my only problem with the slaving idea would be that I would hate to be picking berries, have a slaving group walk into the room, and ten pages of spam later, realize "Oh fuck....guess that was a bunch of slavers that just walked into the room." I say this, because I've seen something similar happen to a friend's character who was trying to shoot somebody while just outside of the gates, and the soldiers walked into the room and killed the character, before he could say "shpedoinkle." He would have gladly been hauled off to jail, but had no chance to even drop his bow.

2: Are there going to be limits to the amount of effort a slaving group will put into chasing someone down? Is Mary-Jane-nobody-elf really worth running through gith country to go get? Is Rich-bitch-noble's little aid worth tracking across the desert? I think it simply makes sense, that if some Joe-Shmoe is proving difficult to catch, that the slavers would quickly give up and just try to find someone else. I also think, however, that if X noble from the north has a vendetta against Y noble in the south, that maybe something akin to a Byn contract could be made for the slavers to hunt down Y's aide.

3: I agree with previous concerns that accepting a slavery role might get dull. I think that as long as there are PC slavers around good at keeping the role interesting, it's a wonderful idea. Perhaps to ensure that PC slaves are not bored out of their skulls playing a PC slaver should require some karma? And maybe every slaving group has to include a certain amount of PCs? Just a thought.

My personal thoughts overall is that I like the idea, but I think it needs a trial period to see how well it works.

[Halaster]

I say this, because I've seen something similar happen to a friend's character who was trying to shoot somebody while just outside of the gates, and the soldiers walked into the room and killed the character, before he could say "shpedoinkle." He would have gladly been hauled off to jail, but had no chance to even drop his bow.

Not to derail this thread, but what does he expect standing outside the gates shooting at them when they're next to the soldiers?  They probably weren't interested in "capture" at that point, considering arrows were flying at them.

[Tlaloc]

1: Would NPC slavers be involved in these "captures"?

No, this would be nearly 100% PC driven. Any NPCs involved would probably have something to do with administration at the noble level, or dealing with individual slaves.

I say this, because I've seen something similar happen to a friend's character who was trying to shoot somebody while just outside of the gates, and the soldiers walked into the room and killed the character, before he could say "shpedoinkle." He would have gladly been hauled off to jail, but had no chance to even drop his bow.

I'd have to echo Halaster here, heh. What was your friend thinking was going to happen, shooting arrows at an army?

2: Are there going to be limits to the amount of effort a slaving group will put into chasing someone down?

I imagine limits will be self-imposed, mostly due to IC circumstances. It would probably depend on the slavers, themselves, and how much effort they feel like putting into it.

3: I agree with previous concerns that accepting a slavery role might get dull. I think that as long as there are PC slavers around good at keeping the role interesting, it's a wonderful idea. Perhaps to ensure that PC slaves are not bored out of their skulls playing a PC slaver should require some karma? And maybe every slaving group has to include a certain amount of PCs? Just a thought.

Once again: its very unlikely that any PC slaves will actually come out of this. Honestly, my original plan was to simply force captured PCs to be stored/retired/killed after a certain alotted time was up, to give the PCs time to buy their own freedom, organize an escape or some other sort of rescue.

Most Players do not want to RP their PC as a slave, and honestly, I'd be too worried about PC slaves doing unrealistic things to automatically force players to play a slave, without a special app or some sort of OOC nod from the Player which states that they'll play within the IC restrictions required of a slave role. This would most likely mean realizing that you'd have do deal with some downtime, restrictions of movement, and not being able to just up and "escape" without staff approval.

Currently, there are discussions going on within the staff about ways to make PC slaves that come from this somewhat possible and playable...but really, I believe they're beyond the scope of this discussion, and add complications and extra staff overhead to what could really be a self-regulating, almost automatic player-driven system.

Players don't (usually) get worked up about getting eaten by Tembo, scrab, gith, meks, bahamet, or any number of other NPC creatures that can cause instant death among their numbers. In my personal opinion, I'd rather go out in an interesting manner, than simply seeing 'A gith walks in from the east'. At least being enslaved for the rest of your PCs natural life is an interesting way to go.

In the past couple of months, I've heard comments from the playerbase about how independents have it too easy, how many nobles have nothing 'to do', and about how players like player-driven, mundane, and harsh plotlines. I think this is a chance to take care of all three of those issues, and who knows how many more we may have missed.

My personal thoughts overall is that I like the idea, but I think it needs a trial period to see how well it works.

I think we do too. We'll see how it works.

[skeetdaddle]

Okay....allow me to clarify. The character mentioned in my previous posting was outside of the gates, shooting away from the gates at someone who was also outside of the gates. He wasn't shooting at, or even through the soldiers whatsoever. He didn't think this would get him crim-flagged, but apparently it did, and he was killed unbelievably quickly. My main point, though, was the massive spam that he got before he even realized what was going on. But since the slaving parties are going to be mostly PCs, it's really a moot point, I guess. I would be very disappointed if a bunch of PCs walked into the room and spammed like that without any emotes or anything.

[Cenghiz]

About crim-code: If soldiers see something, they react. Simple...
If NPCs and VNPC's see something, they react.. To tell the truth, I'm also uncomfortable with magickers casting in Barren Lands, since the room desc says virtual soldiers roam about virtual fenced areas to protect virtual slaves/workers. Of course they wouldn't dare even reacting if you wore a House's cloak behind you or if you were known as the pet of a well-known templar, I believe.