Allanak and Tuluk sentiments

[Manhattan]

So uh, do these two city-states hate each other? To the Northerner, are all 'nakki vicious barbarians? To the Southerner, are all Tuluki snotty pricks that cost them their war?

I imagine that the "average citizen" wouldn't harbor too much hate for the other city-state. For example, remember when the US fought Vietnam and yet the average Vietnamese kept pouring into the States seeking refuge.

I think the hate should be limited to the upper-echelons on this game. I mean, it's politics and only the Templars and Nobles would care for something like this, right?

[Cuusardo]

Those sentiments are incorrect.

If you are a citizen of Tuluk, you will hate Allanak for what they did to your ancestors, and you will think of them as barbaric and crude.

If you are a citizen of Allanak, you will hate Tulukis for being insolent, arrogant heathens.

[Marc]

If you are a citizen of Allanak, you will hate Tulukis for being insolent, arrogant heathens.

And barbarians to boot.

Allanak is the ancient, established civilation.

New Tuluk is the upstart

[Manhattan]

There's always exceptions Cuusardo.

Remember what the Japanese did to the Chinese in Nanjing?

Well, my friend is Chinese and he doesn't hate Japanese for that. Plus, it was half a century ago.

Same with Allanak and Tuluk. You may be right that some people hate the other city-states, but there are always those individuals that just don't care. My Chinese friend understands that the Rape took place years ago, and that not all Japanese are vicious barbarians.

See my point?

edited to add:
I just hate this whole 'black or white' 'hot or cold' business. If my northerner PC associates with someone from 'nak, there shouldn't be people OOCly jumping down my throat about it.

[Larrath]

Education is a very important part in this.

Neither Tulukis nor Allanakis are taught to love anything at all really.  the Highlord Tektolnes murdered his own father to take control of the empire, for crying out loud.  Sure, maybe it's not publically known, but this -is- the man that makes the rules for the single biggest civilization in the Known World.
Back to where I was, there is a huge amount of brainwashing.  People are taught to fear one Sorcerer-King and its templars and to despite the other Sorcerer-King and his templars.  People are continually reminded to be fearful of magick, whether by some terrible stories passed on by Tuluki 'art' or by a public display of a Gemmer Gone Wild somewhere.  People are taught to fear and hate psionicists and mindbenders and elves and half-elves and 'rinthis and tribals and what-not.

It's not very possible for a teacher character to waltz into a tavern, illuminate everyone about how the people of the other city-state have feelings just like they do, and expect to live for over a week.  They'll get either a public or a silent execution, and that will be it - same as anyone who tried to make people sympathize with magickers or psionicists.

And exceptions definitely exist.  It's perfectly possible to have a realistic Allanaki of any upbringing (except noble unless they're just quirky) that will simply not mind someone being a northerner, a half-elf, an elf, a tribal, a magicker, a psionicist, or anything else.  Just keep in mind that you are the exception in these cases, and expecting even five people in a tavern to agree with "accusing that elf of theft just because he's got long ears isn't right" is purely unrealistic.
Brainwashing in Zalanthan is pretty intense.

[HardCarbon]

Tuluki 'art' or by a public display of a Gemmer Gone Wild somewhere. People are taught to fear and hate psionicists and mindbenders and elves and half-elves and 'rinthis and tribals and what-not.

Gemmer Gone WILD!!!!  "Bad boys bad boys... what you gonna do when they come for you"

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I think the perfect word to describe it is "brainwashing".
Your average city-dweller has never been outside the gates, let alone to the opposite city-state.
If you're 'Nakki, you probably heard that those Northerners worship some heathen god, and actually had the gall to rebel against the protection of the state of Allanak. You might've heard nobles and fancy-types gossip about fine Tuluki art, but not nearly as much as you're heard your close friends and family talk about how they run about with halflings, live in the shrub like wild animals, sacrifice humans to their evil god, eat eyeballs, and castrate their own fathers if some one even thinks of the word "magicker". They're barbarians, plain and simple, living in spread-out villages and covering their bodies with totemic tattooes like some damn sharpear. They even fought like savages back in the war, sabotaging equipment and blowing things up and cowering behind their shields like disorganized gith.
Also, if you're an upper-crust type, you probably find it pretty mind-boggling that not only do the commoners refuse to bow to the so-called nobility up there, but they can't have sex with them, either! Clearly they're a bunch of unrefined yokels. Glorified commoners, really.
Oh, and they dress and talk funny, too.
If you're a Tuluki you know that Allanak is a disgusting, overcrowded pit of a city, where the streets are full of pungee pits and heads on stakes, and the nobles lurk about the street at night, looking to sodomize your children. The only entertainment a 'Nakki knows is a grisly public execution, probably laughing over the fact that it's their own sister being disemboweld. You also know that they're magickers. All of them are, even if they don't admit it. Magickers walk about freely there, wiggling their fingers at passers-by and turning them into hideous mutants (who are, of course, scooped up by those decadent, vile nobles and used as pleasure slaves or thrown into the Arena... or both). They are tactless, violent, godless beasts who oppressed your people for years. They can just sit in their blasted desert and eat those revolting scrab heads until their guts explode, for all you care.
They're crazy about spice, too, each and every one of them, in one way or another. One 'Nakki will kill you in order to get your spice, while another will kill you just for having it!
Oh, and they dress and talk funny, too.

[lazycritic]

People always take these things to the extreme on the boards, but I never across it in-game. What's the deal?

Anyhow, don't listen to these guys with their "you loathe <opposing city-state> with all your body and soul" generalizations. And don't listen to the other extreme, either - it should matter[/] in some way that the person is from a different city-state. They often fight.

You might've heard nobles and fancy-types gossip about fine Tuluki art, but not nearly as much as you're heard your close friends and family talk about how they run about with halflings, live in the shrub like wild animals, sacrifice humans to their evil god, eat eyeballs, and castrate their own fathers if some one even thinks of the word "magicker". They're barbarians, plain and simple, living in spread-out villages and covering their bodies with totemic tattooes like some damn sharpear. They even fought like savages back in the war, sabotaging equipment and blowing things up and cowering behind their shields like disorganized gith.

I don't like the way you're creating your own documentation and feeding it to people. While you may imagine it that way, it may not be the way upbringing goes for Zalanthas. I've never heard that rumors are spread about human sacrifice in Tuluk.

[Spoon]

I think we really need to stop comparing instances on Zalanthas to instances on Earth. Both couldn't be under more contrasting circumstances.

[Cuusardo]

There's always exceptions Cuusardo.

Remember what the Japanese did to the Chinese in Nanjing?

Well, my friend is Chinese and he doesn't hate Japanese for that. Plus, it was half a century ago.

Same with Allanak and Tuluk. You may be right that some people hate the other city-states, but there are always those individuals that just don't care. My Chinese friend understands that the Rape took place years ago, and that not all Japanese are vicious barbarians.

See my point?

edited to add:
I just hate this whole 'black or white' 'hot or cold' business. If my northerner PC associates with someone from 'nak, there shouldn't be people OOCly jumping down my throat about it.

This is not real life.  This is Zalanthas, and there is very little grey area in this world.  Prejudice and hate are VERY common things among all classes of society.  Sure, you can do whatever you choose, ICly.  Just don't be surprised when there are consequences.

[sarahjc]

I think there is enough verbal history between the cities to warrant a good deal of hate from either side. There have been major and minor battles between the two cities and less than 25 IC years ago. Most PC's would have lost someone to either side, also both cities promote hate propaganda to their citizens. Nobody is calling for peace and understanding any time soon.

That's not to say that people from either city are not tolerated, they are.. But only at the very minimum of not bashing their heads in on site for fear of the law.

Make no mistake about it, should the templars of either city declare open war and all foreigners be cast out of the city on penalty of death, most of the people from the opposite city that were there would not make it out alive.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

lazycritic wrote:

I don't like the way you're creating your own documentation and feeding it to people. While you may imagine it that way, it may not be the way upbringing goes for Zalanthas. I've never heard that rumors are spread about human sacrifice in Tuluk.

Oh, please. This is a discusion board; I'm not "creating [my] own documentation", I'm offering suggestions. Just because you personally never heard rumors of human sacrifice in Tuluk doesn't mean no one, virtual or otherwise, talks about it. And if some one were to start spreading those rumors, I don't think they'd be too off-base, either. Nothing I said there is too much of a stretch. A 'Nakki citizen might hear that occasionally a Tuluki disappears without a trace, and that these disappearances have something to do with the Tuluki templarate, and they might therefore assume it's a sacrifice. A Tuluki might hear that public execution is common in Allanak, and might assume that the streets are paved with entrails. Not all, but likely some or most commoners would be prejudiced in this way. That's all prejudice really is, a series of assumptions.
Sure, it's possible that young Zalanthans have a different "upbringing". Maybe their parents taught them to love the opposite city-state and repsect their fellow man. Maybe one day there'll be an RPT where 'Nakkis and Tulukis all join hands and sing "Heru Got Run Over By Carru" and usher in a new age of peace and understanding and mutual respect for their different cultures.
Or maybe, just maybe (and believe me, I know how unlikely this scenario is) there's a chance that, while growing up in his crowded tenement with only grandpa's war stories about mutated northerners and heathen southern magickers for entertainment, your character developed some rather skewed views on outsiders to the state.
Now, clearly, my previous post was hyperbolic. I meant it to be an example of how your common, highly ignorant Zalanthan might view the opposite city-state, and I did mean it to be somewhat facetious. Not everyone would be that paranoid regarding people from the opposing city-state, but I think your average citizen would hold at least one or two of those prejudices, false or not.
I think the trouble is that the hate and prejudice gets sort of diluted. When there's only three people in your clan, and one of them's a halfbreed, and one of them's an elf, and the last one's a 'Nakki, you'll probably rationalize it and say, "Well, he might be a heathen, but at least he's human. I should buy him a drink." I think, though, that there should always be some measure of distrust.
It's up to the player to decide if they want lynch-mob-forming hatred or cautious, practical distrust. It's up to the player to pick the reasons why they don't like the opposing city-state, if any.
And well, I hope you'll all forgive me for offering some suggestions on the matter.

[joyofdiscord]

I think it's better to err on the side of irrational rumours and fear-mongering when dealing with foreigners 8as well as magickers, other races, etc).  Why?  Because those elements often seem to be far too lacking.  A lot of players seem to have a hard time dropping their RL open-mindedness and rational logic.  Oh, northerners are just like us, they just do things a little differently and have a different accent.  Sure, maybe your character has a spiffy IC reason for being so level headed (:roll:), but that's going to be the exception by FAR.  Mostly it will be ignorance, fear, mistrust, and even a bit of hatred, as I don't think hatred is quite so alien to Zalanthans as many of the threads on the board seem to suggest.

We get confused by the fact that it's so quick and easy OOCly to travel between the cities, and we know OOCly the way the other culture is.  Zalanthans don't have that luxury.  Most live in their city state for their entire life.  Tuluki society is probably almost as foreign to Allanaki society as, say, American society to Arab society, and we know that there are a lot of wild misconceptions on both sides of that coin.   Go ahead and let your character believe some things that aren't true.  I can't tell you how much more engaging and alive the game environment seems when I hear these sort of wild IC misconceptions bandied about than when I hear bland, rationalist discourse that I could hear from people I know, Mexicans saying gringos aren't that bad, Americans saying Arabs aren't that bad, Nakkis saying Tulukis aren't that bad, etc.

Maybe some/most Chinese have forgiven the Japanese for the rape of Nanking, but I'll also remind you that it's still a tense issue, and one that has come up again in recent news, China demanding an apology and various Asian culture style posturings to save face.  However, at least some Koreans really hate Japan.  Highly amusing page.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

joyofdiscord wrote:

I think it's better to err on the side of irrational rumours and fear-mongering when dealing with foreigners 8as well as magickers, other races, etc). Why? Because those elements often seem to be far too lacking.

Bah. You summed up my argument there in a few sentences better than I did in two lengthy, rambling posts.
Anyway, I concur.

[Manhattan]

There's no grey area in Zalanthas?
Does that mean if my northerner PC simply converses with a 'nakki, that I would get Karma taken away or perhaps bad account notes?

[sacac]

There are different levels of hate manhatten. And she said little grey area.

For instance: If you are tulukian. This works for both cities.
You want to kill the 'nakkis baby if he lives in the north.
You sell your faultier things to a 'nakki.
You ridicule them behind there back and are freindly up front.
You raise your prices just a little.
You always sit a barstool away from the 'nakki.
You pay for a mug of ale for everyone except the 'nakki.
Call him a barbarien.
Call him a tight assed robe kisser.
Call him an arch back.
You always think he is going to try and steal from you, regardless of race, job, etc.

And so on and so on.

Open hate isn't the only kind of hate.

[facehugger]

There's no grey area in Zalanthas?

Oh, that is the thing about Zalanthas. There is no black, no white. Just a limitless number of shades of grey.

[Savak]

The average northerner and the average southerner are at odds/dislike one another.

I'd much rather people think about why that is true than try to explain why they think it shouldn't be true.

The severity of those feelings can run a fairly wide range, and how an individual deals with those feelings can run a fairly wide range.  But the bottom line remains that northerners & southerners live at opposite sides of the world for a reason.

-Savak

[amoeba]

There's no grey area in Zalanthas?
Does that mean if my northerner PC simply converses with a 'nakki, that I would get Karma taken away or perhaps bad account notes?

I don't think anyone would go to those extremes.  How your character feels or reacts as long as it is consitaint and within the realm of possiblities is entirely up to you.  But to put the differences in perspective, think of being a Palestinian decieding to go into the heart of Isreal and sit in a Jewish bar.  It would be tense at best. Posibly deadly.  Your character may be a moderate, but you are far out numbered.

[derail]Essentialy all the emphisis on "hate" (which I think is a bad word , as it negates nuances) is trying to increase the level of conflicts happening at any given time.  In any story it is the conflicts that drive a story and make it interesting. Hate is a simple motivator so it tends to be emphisised.[/derail]

One of the factors thats get lost in our little world is the cycle of violence and hate that gets passed down through generations.  This is true in any major culture conflict.  However because each of our characters starts anew, we don't feel it the way we should. It would be different if your brother, your cousin, maybe that daughter of yours that was close to you was killed by a northerner.  Personally I would like to see more continuity of this type introduced. Imm's have the long term view, but players can emphisise this as well.  Sometimes pure documentation alone doesn't make it real enough, it doesn't feel close enough.  Much of the chit chat I hear in the taverns is kinda weak. If you really hate the notherner, don't just act out the hate, show me "why" you feel it, make it real.  Now that would move past irritaing to interesting.

What I am trying to get to answer the statement, is even though you don't feel the conflicts as much as you probably should, it doesn't mean they are not there. What path your character chooses is his.

[Larrath]

I don't think anyone would go to those extremes.  How your character feels or reacts as long as it is consitaint and within the realm of possiblities is entirely up to you.  But to put the differences in perspective, think of being a Palestinian decieding to go into the heart of Isreal and sit in a Jewish bar.  It would be tense at best. Posibly deadly.  Your character may be a moderate, but you are far out numbered.

That's just not really true, but oh well.  I guess it depends very heavily on where the bar was and what kind of crowds frequented it.

Anyway, yes - it is always good to give basis for hatred.  It will flesh your character out more instead of be an occasional excuse to give Misfit #41 some interaction.

[Manhattan]

The average northerner and the average southerner are at odds/dislike one another.

I'd much rather people think about why that is true than try to explain why they think it shouldn't be true.

The severity of those feelings can run a fairly wide range, and how an individual deals with those feelings can run a fairly wide range.  But the bottom line remains that northerners & southerners live at opposite sides of the world for a reason.

-Savak

QFE QFE Quoted for Emphasis QFE QFE

[lazycritic]

Oh, please. This is a discusion board; I'm not "creating [my] own documentation", I'm offering suggestions.

That's cool. I simply took issue with your phrasing:

If you're 'Nakki, you probably heard that those Northerners worship some heathen god, and actually had the gall to rebel against the protection of the state of Allanak.

The word god is seldom used in Zalanthas - my 'nakkis have never heard anything of the sort. They've heard that Tulukians are ruled by Muk Utep, another Highlord...am I wrong?

Frankly, I want to see the tension between North and South started by staffers, not players. The feeling I get is that there's tons of North/South trade, travel, and mixing because of all the Merchant Houses and the general "nobody really cares about the 'nak vrs Tuluk conflict" undertone that I get.

[Larrath]

Sorcerer-Kings are often called God-Kings, I believe.
Calling either Tektolnes or Muk Utep in their own city-state is probably very hazardous; some templars might, maybe, not care, while most templars will probably burn you and your entire family at the stake.
Also, I doubt anyone would really refer to Muk Utep as a 'highlord'.  His templars probably don't like to have him likened to Tektolnes, and he prefers being referred to as the Sun King.
In Allanak, the templarate (and anyone who didn't wish to annoy it) would probably refer to Muk Utep as a two-bit defiler.
It is possible for someone to refer to Muk Utep as a Highlord, but it will probably raise quite a few brows.

Now to the whole tension thing - why does it matter if the staff 'started' it instead of the players?  If your character somehow contributes to the tension, whether or not they themselves like or dislike northerners, then you're creating tension.
I like to think we're all responsible players.  We don't have to wish up every time we see a half-elf and think one of those NPCs should be giving him a bad time.  If you play around a half-elf, don't ignore what most people will think about them.  If you play a half-elf, absolutely never forget that the vast, vast, vast majority of everything in the world doesn't really like you.

There is travel and trade between the city-states, as well as mixing, and the Merchant Houses are probably the biggest cause.  So what?  So there are two northerners sitting in a tavern.  That means you can't give them shit?  I doubt any Merchant House is going to go against anyone who gave anyone a little bit of crap (at least the employees, family members are probably a different story) because of their upbringing.
Nobody should care too much about a little brawl every now and then, as long as it's not some veteran mercenary 'brawling' with a noble house advisor.

[Gaare]

I think that would be something casual a (unaffilated) southerner to be beaten to death when seen in public tavern , even in front of eyes of templars or soldiers. Southorners killed, destroied many Tuluki families about an age ago after all. Tuluk is trying to be govern and controled by largely propaganda (with addition of brain-washing and deep violance). It is in the nature of propaganda to blame "enemy" for everything bad and that's not different in ARM eithers. Tuluk streets are dirty because of Southorn, people dying from hunger because of witches,  many people are in the jails because magickers controls their mind, people are not loyal enough because southorn spies put foul ideas on good Tuluki people.. Like that.., so IMHO a usual Tuluki grows up with direct harted againist the Black City. Tek represents all the south so he takes a large part of the curse.

I do not know much about Allanak though, but I am quite sure many of them either do not understand why stupid, barbaric northerners believes in a kind of foul magickers.. And I guess (unaffilated) northerners could be mugged, beaten, slain with little to no punishment in 'nak too.

[John]

So uh, do these two city-states hate each other? To the Northerner, are all 'nakki vicious barbarians? To the Southerner, are all Tuluki snotty pricks that cost them their war?

I imagine that the "average citizen" wouldn't harbor too much hate for the other city-state.

The documentation says the following

Citizenship[/url]"]For many freemen, the fact of citizenship in one city-state or another means simply which yoke one is oppressed under.

Which would suggest that there is no loyalty to the city's ruler, and that Allanakies would be fine with travelling to Tuluk or dealing with Tuluki who have come down to Allanak. However the docs also say

What you know as a Tuluki[/url]"]Due to the recent war, which liberated the northlands from southern rule, anti-southerner sentiment runs high at times and while northerners may travel, they tend to go no further south than Luir's Outpost

Which means that Tuluki's do have a problem with nakkies.

I see no problem with having Tuluki show a lot more racism towards nakkies then nakkies do towards Tulukies. In fact, it'd help fight the perceived "bunny huggingness" of the north.

There is no hatred (or even dislike) for all northerners for nakkies in the docs. Sure, those who travel to Tuluk and are treated poorly might come to dislike the north, many would see it as part of the price to dealing with such a rich city. There is no undying loyalty to the Highlord or it's nobles. There is fear, and if they're in another city-state, I'm sure for most that fear would transfer over to the local nobles and templars.

I think the hate should be limited to the upper-echelons on this game. I mean, it's politics and only the Templars and Nobles would care for something like this, right?

The docs say you're right

Citizenship[/url]"]Curiously, for both nobles and slaves alike, it can mean a great deal.

If you're 'Nakki, you probably heard that those Northerners worship some heathen god

They don't worship Tektolnes from loyalty, but from an immediate fear. In a city with another god, the fear of Tektolnes probably doesn't seem as bad as the fear of the local god.

actually had the gall to rebel against the protection of the state of Allanak.

Like Red Storm?

Red Storm[/url]"] Many reclusive folk have made their homes in Red Storm, where it is far enough from Allanak to avoid the long reach of Tektolnes's law, yet near enough to support an easy trade with the city-state.

Doesn't sound like nakkies have too much of a problem with Red Stormers, in fact, those that can afford it seem to like to stay in Red Storm rather then Allanak. After all, it's the one place they won't be oppressed (well, too much anyway. At least they've got spice there). And people do resent the oppression (even if they can't imagine a better life).

What you know as a Red Stormer[/url]"]since many of the citizens here are escapees from the oppression of Allanak, and hate their former oppressors with a vengeance.
....
Still, many find greater freedom here than they do in other places--particularly Allanak. While the soldiers wield life-and-death authority on anyone who steps inside the walls, they do not impose themselves arbitrarily in the way that templars often do.

The average northerner and the average southerner are at odds/dislike one another.

Aah, cool. Perhaps the docs could be updated to reflect that? Because there's no indication in them (and they can be interpretted to mean there isn't).