Who would win in a fight? The way, or listen.

[sarahjc]

Ok, so it's not a real poll, but it is a real  topic. I'd like to hear people's thoughts on the secretiveness of things and the effects that the way and listen have on it.

They way I see things right now, is that most plots are kept out of the general populace because of these two factors.  And skills like hide and sneak, can't combat them. People know they are being spied on, and they know there is a lesser chance that others can /are tapping into their heads. So most of the super secrete stuff is done over the way.

Would making these skills weaker, entice people to be less secretive or more creative in what they talk about and where they talk about it?

Discuss.

[moab]

Alright, I voted for Listen, but only because the option made me laugh.  :-D

We could have a good game without listen.  Without the way, though, things get ugly fast.  It's the only reliable way to communicate with distant people in game.

[Ghost]

Listen is nothing.. Really.  Just because you have the listen skill, you believe you have made a big step into the world of spying right?  No you have not.

I have truly, almost, ALMOST, never could make use of the listen skill to learn something secret.  People never talk anything secret anywhere unless they are 99.99% sure they are private.

The way?  I think that is necessary to keep it that way, for the sake of playability.

[sarahjc]

Well, thats sort of the idea, since most of the super secrete stuff is talked about via brain waves, if it were harder and listen was a much more rare/difficult skill, perhaps the general populace would see more/be more involved in plots, even if they are just small ones.

[Cuusardo]

I think things make the most sense the way it is.  It should be fairly easy to listen in on someone's conversation if they are in the near vicinity, which drives them to find other ways to keep their secrets secret.  Either they will go somewhere more private to speak of their secrets, or they will speak about it using the Way.  I mean, if you sit around a tavern or stand on the streets to tell your buddy that you mean to assassinate Lord Fancypants, or that your contact is smuggling a load of spice into the city within a week, you deserve to get caught.

And as far as for using this as a tool to let people in on plots...Not every plot is meant to have everyone involved.  Some are meant to stay small and secret.

[Anonymous]

it were harder and listen was a much more rare/difficult skill, perhaps the general populace would see more/be more involved in plots, even if they are just small ones.

God bless you, someone who agrees with me that there might be a correlation.

[Revelations]

And as far as for using this as a tool to let people in on plots...Not every plot is meant to have everyone involved.  Some are meant to stay small and secret.

Cheers.  :wink:

This could probably be converted into a "what makes a good plot" thread if anyone wanted to. Bringing people in on plots being a good point to begin with.

[sarahjc]

It's not that I feel everyone should be involved in every plot, as of course a good deal of them should be kept secrete. But there is a difference between secrete and near impossible.

Also I am not talking about John and Tom planning to kill Lord Snazzy Underpants in the middle of the bar.  I'm more so talking about when John and Tom talk about it in the back room of the bar and Ed is hiding behind a wine barrel trying to listen.

That sort of thing, and smaller things as well.

Making off color comments to people about other PC's instead of waying them.

Discussing the new Magicker in the Elemental quarter that you are trying to recruit, but the templars seem to have a hold on them.

A lot of basic conversation is done over the way because you don't want anyone to hear it.  It could make things a bit more fun if more of that stuff was said allowed instead of waying it.

[Cenghiz]

If Ed's trying to hide behind a barrel in a crowded tavern, Ed should be a h-giant. I'm right?

Heh.. Let's say an imm announced "The chance of sinking into the silt in the sea of silt has been decreased."
....
What's going to happen? Will people start hurrying into the sea of silt for the sake of exploration? No no.. Sinking into the silt means instant death. And lower or higher, nearly no extra players would take the risk.

So let's say it's announced "The effectiveness of the listen skill is halved." What's going to happen? Everyone's going to start chattering in bar feeling more safe? Eh.. I don't think so. If there's a risk of being caught, why should I?

Or.. Let's say I'm a 'rinthi rebel, Ken, who's going to try an assassination of a templar. He's to meet with his friend, Joe. They're in a dark alley. But... It's a place where even the sneakiest has a chance to be shadowed. It's 'rinth.. Where all those cloaked shadow ninjas wander. If I were Ken, I'd burst my brainz, but use the Way. It's hard? Then I'd sit down.. Or rest.. Or I'd be patient. But I wouldn't say "We'll place a piece of spice in an entering aide's cloak pocket. Then one of us will tell the templar that the aide has spice on her. While he's messing with the aide, we'll sneak in and place the bomb, then rush away. When the templar rushes after us, we'll take him. Then everyone's on his own." I would use the way. Harder or easier, I wouldn't care.

Note: I _know_ about psionics. Maybe even I know more than I should, which -I fear- is nearly affecting my RP. [Bonk my head! Bonk my head!! /] But even more wouldn't hurt, right?

[sacac]

I think Pcs need to stop being so paranoid to a degree like this:
"OMG! You need to way me about that super sekrit fight tomorrow! OMG! Now everyone knows! My pc is going to get kill3d!"

I love talking with people in person about secret things to see their reaction OOC, so naturally that sinks into IC.

For that reason stated above, and I'm not trying to be elitest, I believe a lot of pcs don't stay IC when they decide to talk to someone over the way when they are at the same table.

Would your pc really use that non-understandable way when they are trying to tell someone how cute they are today?

Make way harder like this..

Contact bob
Your mind suffers from use of the way.

You contact someone.

psi Hey bob! That you? How you doin'?

[Anonymous]

So let's say it's announced "The effectiveness of the listen skill is halved." What's going to happen? Everyone's going to start chattering in bar feeling more safe? Eh.. I don't think so. If there's a risk of being caught, why should I?

A. You're assuming your behavior and the rest of the playerbase will be the same.
B. Changing the listen skill to be targetted will result in a lot more than halving it's effectiveness.  Someone has to be listening to your specific table at the exact moment you let slip the most mild of information.  That's more like 25% effectiveness.
C. Changing the listen skill to targetted could also have the effect of seeing future player's roleplaying not be as directed around the pervasive nature of the listen skill.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned about listen is that, unless I've just never been witness to it, there is no way to fail miserably in a way that lets people around you know you are a being nosey.  A big failure in listen resulting in a message towards the target you are trying to listen to along the lines of 'You notice the brown-haired man leaning in your direction' or something better would be a nice change to the listen skill.  Suddenly people would be a little less inclined to be gung ho in listening to that Templar's table or that noble's table for fear of failing in a spectacular fashion and drawing the ire of those above you.

[Cenghiz]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned about listen is that, unless I've just never been witness to it, there is no way to fail miserably in a way that lets people around you know you are a being nosey. A big failure in listen resulting in a message towards the target you are trying to listen to along the lines of 'You notice the brown-haired man leaning in your direction' or something better would be a nice change to the listen skill. Suddenly people would be a little less inclined to be gung ho in listening to that Templar's table or that noble's table for fear of failing in a spectacular fashion and drawing the ire of those above you.

Hmm.. That would solve the problem.

*bows before CRW before fading away*

[sarahjc]

OOhh.. I like CRW's idea... A lot..

[Ghost]

Well CRW's idea would be good if the listen skill was something useful in determining sekrit info.

Enough said.

[joyofdiscord]

Well CRW's idea would be good if the listen skill was something useful in determining sekrit info.

I agree.  As long as the way is as easy and useful as it is now, there's no reason for people to start speaking their sensitive or semi-sensitive information out loud at a table.

[Vox]

Okay, woah woah woah... *pulls back on the reins*

:shock: Listen not effective in uprooting secret plots? The hell you say.

Listen, in and of itself is a wonderful RP tool, so wonderful in fact that I often go for listen in bard or house servant over any other subguild.  The fact is, listen opens up Tavern-RP in a way that is far more realistic then the quiet conversations that take place at every table. If listen needs to be tweaked at all it should allow one to hear people in other rooms who also happen to be sitting at a table.

Will you uncover a super-secret plot through generally listening, my guess is no. Is that the purpose for listening to other conversations? Well, possibly.. but knowing that it's unlikely should shift the focus then to rumors of interest and the daily banter between people. General gossip and so forth and simply picking up people talking before they walk into the room is useful if you want to make a hasty retreat.

I'm glad listen is far more available to the general public because super-secret plotting shouldn't be done at the local bar. It should be regulated to back rooms and shady alleys and yes, the Way...

Regarding the Way briefly, there are Psionics(the Masters of the Way)... Who knows what crazy skills they get but the fact that they exist compromises the Way as a secure tool for information transfer. 'nuff said.

Unless of course the information is in code, and then you could just as easily talk in code in public. Regardless, I would weep tears of blood if Listen's effectiveness were changed.  If anything should be changed, I think it should be the Way.

We've all become so lazy and fat in our inter-continental long-distance Way babbling that people don't even bother leaving their apartments to chat Allanak/Tuluk.  Nobody uses scouts or emissaries anymore. Whatever happened to hiring someone to bring a message? If contact is a skill branched from barrier I think we would see far more reliance on PCs to transfer messages.... And if PCs are now delivering secreted messages guess what becomes far more useful in uncovering plots and juicy tidbits?

LISTEN.

Make contact a branchable skill from barrier and not only will people suddenly understand why being able to throw up a barrier to block the voices from their head is useful but it will slow down Global communication and make people resort to actually TRAVELLING TO THE DESTINATION.

Oh the horror, something that encourages RP.
:twisted:

[Delirium]

em crowns ~vox and puts !vox up on a pedestal for the day.

To actually add something to the discussion:

I think that the longer the distance between people, the more the Way should tax your mind.  If it's already like that, then the difference should be greater.  As it is now, there doesn't seem to be much disparity between mental chats between an Allanaki and a Tuluki, and chats between two people at the bar.

Say, if you're in the same room, it won't be much problem.  If you're in the same city, maybe about like it is now.  If they're in Tuluk and you're in Allanak, it should be nearly impossible to send more than a message or two before you have to dissolve the link.  If you're in Luir's and they're in Tuluk, then it's extremely difficult, but possible if you're flat on your back and taking your time, but you're probably still looking at only four-five messages.

I wouldn't like to see the Way become horribly difficult to use (other than over long distances), but I would like to see it become more taxing to use for long periods of time.  I dislike the idea of contacting 'someone', because as I've managed to explain the Way to myself, you have an intimate connection with that person's mind, and you would feel it if the mind was 'off' somehow, especially if you knew the person very well.  I think it would also be very difficult to lie when using the Way.

Someone brought up an example of telling that templar over in the corner that Joe over there is a sekrit defiler.  Why not approach the templar and whisper it to him/her?  Sure it puts your character at a little more risk and Amos over there might manage to pick up what you said, but is that not part of the fun?  The risk, the danger, the coolness of the plot?

[Ghost]

I did not say listen is useless.  I also enjoy having listen, but listen is useless in the way of spying and gathering information.  Don't think, that just because you have listen, you are a cool spy.  Because... You are not.

[Whira's Luck]

How do you know that super secret stuff is being talked about over the Way all the time?

Some people may speak of super secret stuff over the way, but out of personal observation, most people go to talk about super secret stuff in places where they believe they will not be overheard. Note, I did not say that they will not be overheard, or that the place they go is completely empty, only that they go somewhere they -believe- they will not be overheard. This place may be a secret underground lair that no one knows about with a steel door three feet thick or it might be a couch in another room of the tavern. Changing the Way or listen, IMHO, will not change this. People will not start discussing their super secret stuff at the bar of a tavern, even if listen was removed from most people (or even made to have an echo) and the Way was made super hard, if they are hell-bent on keeping it super secret.

It -has- been my experience, however, that most people talk about not-so-secret stuff over the way, or at least the bulk of what any character of mine has sent and received had to do with things that were not very super-secret at all. In fact, little having to do with any 'secret' plotting whatsoever. Nearly all secret things were always discussed in person, as stated above, in locations believed to be free from purposely or accidentally prying ears in relation to the 'secrecy' involved. Whether or not they were always free from prying ears (they weren't) is beside of the question. The limit or ease of coded skills had nothing to do with this.

As to what is stronger? That depends on the perspective you're asking the question from. Also, who says that all plots need to be available to everyone who wants to be involved in them? Are you saying you want more of a chance being caught in a super secret plot? No one is stopping you from talking about it at a bar or in a tavern. Are you saying you want more of a chance in being involved with said secret plots? No one is stopping you from finding ways, up to and including creating a character that would be privy to such plots, to finding them out.

Also, not all plots are super secret, and not all plots are secret at all. Secret plots are just that.. plots which have not come out in the open that involve a  small amount of people. If a secret plot is opened up to everyone who wanted to be part of it, then it isn't a secret plot anymore.

[Anonymous]

Someone brought up an example of telling that templar over in the corner that Joe over there is a sekrit defiler.  Why not approach the templar and whisper it to him/her?  Sure it puts your character at a little more risk and Amos over there might manage to pick up what you said, but is that not part of the fun?  The risk, the danger, the coolness of the plot?

I'm not arguing with you here, but it seems to me that, in general, behavior patterns emerge because of some external reinforcement to the point that it becomes second nature.  A responsible player may decide that their character has had one too many and blurt out some secret, but in general I think both characters and players aren't in the wrong for opting for something that is more secure for sharing sensitive information.  Why blab when someone might pass it along or overhear when you can use the way and avoid the risk?

In other words, what rationale exists for a character to not use the Way when the downside, a headache, pales in comparison to what a slip of the tongue can result in?

I'm not advocating a situation where anyone who goes into the off room to have a chat about killing a templar is considered a twink but I do think that the current inplementation of the listen skill has reduced it's value to just what Vox said, a RP tool.  Good for overhearing talk about a job or learning a new language, maybe picking up a few names to contact down the road but not much else unless you have some skills to go along with it.  Simply because people are not inclined to blab in a tavern because of how the threat of the listen skill hangs over every word.  

I certainly don't have the answer just ideas, but the best analogy I can come up for the current state of the listen skill is if you said 100% of people who drive a car to work will die then nobody would.  If you said 20% of people who drive a car will die then people are more likely to risk it depending on what the reward will be.  That's not a great analogy but hopefully you see where I'm coming from.

[jmordetsky]

I hate the way. It's poo.

[Anael]

I am probably weird, but I can't think of any important information that my characters discussed only via the Way. Actually, my PCs use Way more for daily, common communication (hey bud, meet in the pub), and really -speak- about important things.

[Revelations]

I do think that the current inplementation of the listen skill has reduced it's value to just what Vox said, a RP tool. Good for overhearing talk about a job or learning a new language, maybe picking up a few names to contact down the road but not much else unless you have some skills to go along with it. Simply because people are not inclined to blab in a tavern because of how the threat of the listen skill hangs over every word.

I agree, in these regards. But, if the success of the Way is brought in response to this thread, I say you should limit the uses of Listen as well. Yes, currently listen isn't much more than a RP tool, but if more important conversations were to be forced due to the lessening of uses of the Way, then whoever has listen will have a tremendous advantage due to the broad manner in which Listen works. Instead, as mentioned earlier in the thread, if listen were limited in capability to only a single table, or in only one direction, then I think it would balance things out, as well as make the game more realistic. Almost in the same manner as watch. It would prevent the amount of random encounters with sensitive information that would occur with the current listen capabilities. People would still be able to uncover plots and the lot in a more reasonable manner, but you would need to be paying attention to the particular conversation. So, in function, it would almost be the same thing as a psionisist maintaining contact with a person who's having an important chat over the Way, but with alot more people having that psionic ability. It balances things out, no?

[Armaddict]

Oh my god!  People are -listening- to us, while they sit over there!   Let's freak out and take their head!

Sorry, but in my opinion...that would be extremely excessive and pretty -weird- all around.  The risk would be letting people know you can listen.

All around...I still stay with my opinion that this whole discussion on the uber l33tness of listen, how unrealistic, how overpowered...is completely unnecessary and repetitive.  Why are we still starting completely new threads on this when we're told repeatedly space is cluttered?

Edited to apply to the original thread:  I think the Way wins.  Depending on the character, I generally -do- use the way to avoid saying things out loud, even if I'm in 'private'.

[Cindrak]

People keep bringing these things up because they are unsatisfied with the way things currently are, and want to keep the debate alive. Creating new threads does not take more or less space than adding to old threads. What it does do is get attention. I imagine you agree, or you wouldn't continue to write the same "There's nothing wrong with listen!" post on every new thread that pops up.

-Cindrak