Who would win in a fight? The way, or listen.

[amoeba]

All around...I still stay with my opinion that this whole discussion on the uber l33tness of listen, how unrealistic, how overpowered...is completely unnecessary and repetitive.  Why are we still starting completely new threads on this when we're told repeatedly space is cluttered?

I very strongly agree with this statement. And to further, some of the arguments put forth are specious at best and rife with assumptive generalizations on human behavior. The key to learning sekrits is more dependent on what is between your RL ears than in a coded ability. My characters have used listen quite well to learn plots, and have used plain old deductive reasoning not necessarily requiring the listen skill. You want to learn plots, figure out a way. All the tools exist to do as such. All the convoluted arguments put forth as an way of 'social engineering' a way to get more secrets spilled seems to be missing the point. [/rant]

[Armaddict]

Every argument in every thread has been the same, so what's the point of starting a new one?

People keep bringing these things up because they are unsatisfied with the way things currently are, and want to keep the debate alive.

The way that's worded, it basically says 'They want to beat a dead horse because it's not -dead-, dammit!'  (In my opinion, heh.)

What it does do is get attention. I imagine you agree, or you wouldn't continue to write the same "There's nothing wrong with listen!" post on every new thread that pops up.

If you're bringing my attention to it, don't get angry if I have the same thing to say to the same idea, the same arguments, and the same annoyance at not being able to actually filter which posters I can view.

This re-instatement of the thread -did- come up with the idea for a critical fail for listen.  While the thought is good, I think the effect is minimal and will be blown out of proportion -way- too often by players who suddenly find they're being snooped on in a tavern.  Seriously.  Wow, someone -heard- you.  Even as a noble, it would be an irritation, but nothing they'd lose an -ear- over, I don't believe.  And what happens when you critical fail while hidden?  Aren't most people who are blatantly listening with the intent of actually discovering something hidden anyway?  Does the act of paying attention to what people are saying take you -out- of hiding, because your clumsy attempt to listen harder made you stagger forward or sneeze?

And listen isn't a super-spy skill.  Just because you have it doesn't mean you'll find lots of cool plots and secrets, as people seem to want the skill to do.  That sort of stuff is still figured out with homework, cunning, intelligence, and good old-fashioned luck.

There -is- nothing wrong with listen.

[Anonymous]

Every argument in every thread has been the same, so what's the point of starting a new one?

Well, I guess it's time to close down the GDB.

"You can't discuss things here, this is the discussion board."

There -is- nothing wrong with listen.

Says the one guy on the planet able to distinguish and follow dozens of conversations in a busy restaurant.  Meanwhile the rest of us can barely follow what the person across the table is saying and barring some explanation of enhanced Zalanthan auditory prowess I'd like to see listen brought in line a little.

[Armaddict]

*sigh*

The same arguments.

[Cindrak]

Every argument in every thread has been the same, so what's the point of starting a new one?

Not true. As you said yourself, this thread produced at least one new idea. Whereas your responses always hit the exact same note. Not that I'm complaining; I don't mind you saying "I don't want listen changed" as many times as you want, with no reasoning beyond "there are more important things to change first." Keep on keepin' on, brotha. But you don't get to decide when our horse is dead any more than we do. Sorry.

-Cindrak

[Armaddict]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9720&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=listen&start=45
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13397&highlight=listen

Those are two past topics I browsed for briefly...things go both ways, but both of them have a lot to say.

Yes, this thread made a new idea...but we could have put it in a place where the entire, enormously long, multi-posted topic would be viewed before it, rather than the 'spontaneous good idea' effect of putting up a new post.  If only it wasn't multi-posted -beforehand-.  *sigh*  If only people would just consolidate rather than make new posts completely to try and get people's attention, that would make it so much easier for the entire discussion to be seen.

My reasoning was and is that there's no problem with the way things are, at all, beyond your realism bit that may apply to some or a majority of people on earth (who may just not have the listen skill), but may not apply to the zalanthan human.  Realism can't really apply in a fantasy world where magick exists, enormous half-giants are clobbered over the head by the shortest of flat-footed dwarves, and...my example, always...the corrupt soldiers work with near-perfect and flawless efficiency at finding, slaying, and remembering a brand new criminal.  Not to mention how when one knows, they -all- know.

[Anonymous]

Realism can't really apply in a fantasy world where magick exists, enormous half-giants are clobbered over the head by the shortest of flat-footed dwarves

Everytime someone uses the word 'realism' or 'realistic' someone trots out the obvious fact that we are playing a fantasy game.

Realism relative to the presentation of the fantasy world not only applies but is necessary for all sorts of continuity.  People get hot from the heat, half-giants die when stabbed with pointy things, dwarves blow themselves up with magic.  Things still work in a specific way very much like our world regardless of the inclusion of fantasy races and magic concepts.

Hence I said that barring some explanation that Zalanthan hearing surpasses our own the listen skill is overpowered as it stands in my opinion.

[jmordetsky]

I just think that the game mechanics that would evolve around the delivery of messages, messengers and the like in a world that had limited use of the way would be sweet.

It would be a cool subclass..."Mentalist" not quite a bender, but someone you could use to relay messages. It would create lots for PCs to do.

I hate the way. I think it's poo.

[Cindrak]

Yes, this thread made a new idea...but we could have put it in a place where the entire, enormously long, multi-posted topic would be viewed before it, rather than the 'spontaneous good idea' effect of putting up a new post.  If only it wasn't multi-posted -beforehand-.  *sigh*  If only people would just consolidate rather than make new posts completely to try and get people's attention, that would make it so much easier for the entire discussion to be seen.

In the name of organization, I think it's better to make multiple threads, one for each variation on the theme. It's easier to find a particular idea if it's under its own thread, than if it's a spin-off buried in the middle of some 7 page thread. And you might think all the ideas are the same and should be chucked into the same bin, but I don't. And as I said before, 10 threads of 10 posts each take no more space than one thread of 100 posts. So what is the reason not to use multiple threads, except that it gives more visibility to a point of view you dislike?

My reasoning was and is that there's no problem with the way things are, at all, beyond your realism bit that may apply to some or a majority of people on earth (who may just not have the listen skill), but may not apply to the zalanthan human.  Realism can't really apply in a fantasy world where magick exists,

Ah yes, the famous "realism doesn't apply, this is a game" line of argument. Allow me to address this: when people talk about "realism" in a game, they are usually not referring to making the game world exactly like our planet earth. They are talking about internal consistency, making a world that feels like it *could* be real, even though it might contain elements that would be totally unrealistic on earth. So, the game has magic. Does this mean that magic-users can say a few words and make anything they want happen? No, this would not be fun for the rest of the players, therefore we put constraints on magic. Then we can talk about what it would be "realistic" for a magic user to do, within the constraints of the game world.

enormous half-giants are clobbered over the head by the shortest of flat-footed dwarves, and...my example, always...the corrupt soldiers work with near-perfect and flawless efficiency at finding, slaying, and remembering a brand new criminal.  Not to mention how when one knows, they -all- know.

Are these supposed to be examples of things that are unrealistic, but good for the game? Cause, um, I think all those should be changed, too. In fact, if I recall correctly, you're a big critic of the crim code, yourself. Seems odd to use that as an example. Does one unrealistic and stupid 'feature' justify another?

There's a difference between things which are not realistic because their being realistic would hinder rather than improve enjoyment of the game. Here's a good example: forcing people to codedly urinate and defecate every so often would be realistic, but would it make the game better? No. On the other hand, there are those of us who believe making listen more realistic would improve playability. You're not one of them. That's fine.

-Cindrak

[Armaddict]

Those were demonstrations that what we think is realistic and what isn't doesn't really apply, when you take into account that some things just aren't important enough to waste time fixing.

Edited to add:  Erm...not that I decide what's important enough.  But in my opinion...there is no drastic harmful effect to listen the way it is, and so I don't consider it broken or in need of changes.  Perhaps when the way is removed from the game, and people make plots and there are consistently a -dozen- different conversations going on in a room, it's more than plausible.  And when you've the chance to overhear vnpc's conversations.

[Whira's Luck]

Actually, Cindrak, in order to say what you're saying, you need to prove (by virtue of documentation or immortal decision) that beings on Zalanthas don't have a type of mental function that allows them to listen to many things at once - being that they have practice or training in doing so.

I mean, they can all use psionics to one degree or another, women in zalanthas are physically equal to men as a norm and these are not special circumstances, these are the everyday norms. Maybe, since their brains are already different enough to process thoughts differently (how do you differentiate someone else's thoughts in your head from your own?), perhaps there are differences in the way senses work or can be trained to work.

[Cindrak]

Actually, Cindrak, in order to say what you're saying, you need to prove (by virtue of documentation or immortal decision) that beings on Zalanthas don't have a type of mental function that allows them to listen to many things at once - being that they have practice or training in doing so.

My main argument against the realism of listen has to do with the mechanism by which you listen. The whole 'trying to listen until you succeed, and then you can hear everything' thing. Sure, we don't know that Zalanthans don't have "listening boxes" implanted in their heads, which require multiple attempts to boot up. But if I heard that reason advanced, I would laugh out loud, and I hope you would too, because it's clearly an explanation tailor-made for excusing some sloppy code.

-Cindrak

[Whira's Luck]

But who knows? Is it necessary that every nuance of everything actually be explained? I mean, people can't even agree on how zalanthas actually receive the messages they get over the way, much less how they're able to distinguish said thoughts.

My point isn't that they do or don't have brains capable of it, but that it's debatable whether or not it's sloppy code or that it shouldn't be that way. Maybe it was purposely left vague so that when you play and listen, you could construct your own reasoning on why you heard what you did.

If I've even got listen on in a crowded bar, I'm not going to be paying special attention to (otherwise ignoring) what most people are saying at a table, much less be able to process what people are saying around me. That is roleplaying. Is coded enforcement really that necessary? And what would it really improve?

[amoeba]

That is roleplaying. Is coded enforcement really that necessary? And what would it really improve?

Well stated.  Roleplay should come first.   Listen is what you make of it.  You can choose to be an uber listener, flipping back through logs to have that perfect memory, or you can gloss over conversations remembering only snippets.   The arguments that changing the listen skill to increase the chance of plots leaking out is at best wishful thinking.  The arguments that the code is "sloppy" or substandard is unsubstantiated and immflamitory.  Separate threads discussing essentially the same thing does take up more space, as people fell inclined to make essentially the same responses on each of the threads, rather than one.  Not everything that happens falls down to an issue of code, sometimes just using your head and roleplaying it out is all it takes.

[Revelations]

If I've even got listen on in a crowded bar, I'm not going to be paying special attention to (otherwise ignoring) what most people are saying at a table, much less be able to process what people are saying around me. That is roleplaying. Is coded enforcement really that necessary? And what would it really improve?

Yes, in that regards, leaving your listen on when your not listening would be what I consider abuse of that ability, and the potential to abuse listen makes it a powerful tool if the Way was toned down. It is because of these kinds of uses that emphasize more coded limitations on certain aspects of the game rather than leaving it up to people to roleplay, and this is one example.

I'll say my point again: listen should be restricted to only one conversation or direction if the Way is to be toned down. I'll take this abit farther by saying that I now think the Way -should- be toned down by lowering the max that PC's can obtain in psionics, at least for Contact.

(Let's keep the discussion more on topic, folks.)