Why The Sandstorm Code Is Impractical

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

One thing that's always irked me about the whole "hire a ranger" thing is, well, how do you hire a ranger? Walk up to them and say "Hey, are you a ranger?" Go OOC and ask? And when they tell you they aren't, make up an IC excuse for not hiring them? Assume all hunters are rangers? Assume everyone with a bow is a ranger? Ask things like, "so should the storm of the King's Age descend upon our travelling party, would you happen to have magickal eyes that would guide us through it?"
While increasing interaction is great, how do you know you're getting your money's worth without being a twink?

[Jherlen]

While increasing interaction is great, how do you know you're getting your money's worth without being a twink?

You don't.    If some guy tells you he can guide you back and then gets your ass lost, you're screwed. Welcome to Armageddon.

I agree with everything picklehead said. If you aren't a ranger, be scared to go outside alone.

[amoeba]

Enough already. I'm tired of this whining about being caught out in a storm and how it's not playable. Boohoo.

It's a discussion forum, where people discuss ideas. Relax a bit. The original poster put forth a well written, well thought out post.  You are welcome to disagree with it. I do somewhat. But comments like these are what keep people from posting or even reading the gdb.

The stormcode's fine, you people just need to hire some assistance or stay indoors where you belong.

I would like to see more hiring in the game as well.  It's not always practical, if we had 60+ players at all times I'd say yes of course hire someone. But what about the off times players? It's not always an option.  This thread has been beaten to death, but there are some interesting ideas, and I'm sure eventually things will be tweaked up over the years.

[Yokunama]

1) Having a subguild that can navigate through sandstorms would create lots of problems. Some players would chose this subguild, in order the cheat the system. Another problem is the abuse of this subguild.

Define abuse and/or cheating.  Fairly nebulous it seems.

Also, some players would chose this subguild only because it can "navigate" through "sandstroms".

Well..ya. Like players choose archer so they can use a bow, or linguist so they can speak other languages, damn cheaters.

2) Having a subguild that could quit everywhere would take out most of the fun in the game. Players could abuse this factor also, mind you. If a player were to have become a target for a bandit, he'd just simply walk off a few rooms and quit. Or if a player got stuck in a sandstrom, they'd just simply quit until it raises up. I'm not saying that this doesn't already happen with those who play with the ranger guild.

Anything can be abused. Players could quit in the middle of guard duty/latrine duty/barracks cleaning so they wouldn't have to what they wanted and log back in when it was over.  I could come up with a huge list of cheats along this line. Point is there are methods for dealing with this type of thing.  

The way I read it is there are two base issues with the storm code.

1. RL issues. It is the one "common" thing in the game that could cause RL  Issues unexpectedlly.  Having two hours to play, going out a 1/2 hour into to get wood, then being caught by the sudden onset of a sandstorm can create RL problems for someone.  On the short I would think it would be reasonable to wish up and explain why you should be quit out.  (I would like an IMM to weigh in on this).  Long term, have advance notice that a deblitating storm is coming, perhaps have more quit safe points that a traveller could stumble into in the areas commonly used by non-rangers. (I'm a bit iffy about the second option)

2. Playablity issues. This is harder. Having other guilds being able to navigate? Eh, does it really solve a problem? Having everyone able to navigate? No, then why have a storm code at all, why storms?  I do think however there should be some navigatiblity on the roads for all.  In RL you get lost, you find a stream or something, and follow it to something. Here if one at was lucky enough to stumble onto a road, as least they could slowly  make progress.  Of course all the raiders/gith/critters will have noticed all the increased traffic on the roads and will make life miserable for the traveler, but at least then it's playable.

Replying to red text:
Yea, that is the biggest problem. Trying to find a way to save and quit during a sandstorm, because of some event in the real world. I wouldn't have no problem leaving my character in the game, if we didn't have those players who like to take advantage of idle characters.

Replying to cyan text:
Hey, you might be onto something there. How about implementing a "follow road <direction>" command that allows players to travel the roads, until they get at a fork or something in the road? This could allow non-rangers to navigate through storm using the road, but it would make travel much slower in the sandstorms.

[Zharal]

Im with you picklehead.  I myself am tiring of this debate...  Suck it up folks, theres far worse things then sandstorms.  Next thing you know people are gonna start complaining about food and water intake.

[picklehead]

One thing that's always irked me about the whole "hire a ranger" thing is, well, how do you hire a ranger? Walk up to them and say "Hey, are you a ranger?" Go OOC and ask? And when they tell you they aren't, make up an IC excuse for not hiring them? Assume all hunters are rangers? Assume everyone with a bow is a ranger? Ask things like, "so should the storm of the King's Age descend upon our travelling party, would you happen to have magickal eyes that would guide us through it?"
While increasing interaction is great, how do you know you're getting your money's worth without being a twink?

If it were me I'd just go up and ask them if they could do the things my character needed: "I need you to keep an eye on the surrounding area while I work and let me know if any potential trouble is coming my way. If a storm comes up, I'll need you to help me get back to the city before it gets too bad." Do you end up gleaning some OOC info that way? Possibly, but you're really just doing what your character would do to satisfy his own needs. Now, as Jherlen said, you really have no way of knowing if you'll be getting your money's worth, since the person you talk to could lie through their teeth about what they're capable of and end up screwing you, but you take chances like that in pretty much every interaction that occurs in the game.

[WarriorPoet]

How about making those storms not quite so sudden? I know I've been out on a fairly low-wind day, had the weather change, and in that single instant it go from manageable storm to a shrieking demon.

So, the Mud decides it's time for a storm. A big one. At the moment, though, there is only a little wind.

First you get an echo: The wind dies for a brief moment before whipping up once more, blown from a new direction.

This starts a five/three minute timer. Once it gets halfway through it's alloted time, another echo: The force of the wind increases, kicking up ever more sand and grit into stinging swirls.

Finally, as the timer runs out, the storm begins to scream and visibility becomes zero, you get the final echo: A particularly fierce gust of wind picks a cloud of sand, whipping it around you and stinging your eyes and any exposed patches of skin. The dunes around you are quickly obscured, and soon only the storm is visible.

This would give everyone a bit of time to kick back to a city, or at least hunt a hole in which to wait out the nastiness or quit out if you feel you must.

Just an thought.

-WP

[sacac]

Inkhore. No, just no.
The storm needs to be tweaked a little, or the subguilds need to be. One of them needs to evolve with the other.
Are rangers the -only- ones supposed to be -in- the desert?

If everyone picked the subclass that had "Storm navigation", then they wouldn't get added crafting skills, or the ability to sap someone, or speak 90 languages off the bat, or and or, and or.

Now, Storm Navigation can't be added to hunter, because then it could be overpowered if Warrior picked it. And do hunters really spend -all- there time in the savage wastes? Maybe PCs do, but I don't see a large number of VNPCs doing this. In my opinion.

How about Scavenger? I like the idea of Storm navigation being added there, seriously.

Taken from the helpfiles:

Scavengers, skilled in surviving the wilds, particularly ruins such as those of Tuluk, are quick to find items and have a shrewd eye towards their possible worth. In order to find objects out of reach of others they have learned to find paths that aren't apparent to the casual observer, and go into caves, windows, and holes in the wall which require a short climb.

Sounds like they could drop to the ground and crawl back the way they came if they are skilled in surviving the wilds.

Editted to add:
Why can't I stop "whining" about it? Not enough rangers to go around.

[Ghost]

Scavangers do not scavange in the middle of the storm.  They stay in a shelter or something.

I do believe a full proof sandstorm navigation is too much to come with a subguild.

And as it is, people already navigate in the storms.  Just NOT the blinding storms.  Blinding it is.

[sacac]

Right. Not full proof Storm Navigation, I don't want that for any subguild.
Just a "slight ability" to do so.
Blinding ones last "Supposedly" 4 days, or so.

Something needs to be tweaked with. I just don't know what.

[Delirium]

/me dons a shirt that says, "I'm with picklehead."

[Yokunama]

Editted to add:
Why can't I stop "whining" about it? Not enough rangers to go around.

Agreed,
If the playerbase has lived with it for quiet some time, why is it such a problem now?

[nameless]

There should be Quit-safe rooms out there in the sands.  Atlest a lot more because I've never seen one out side of a city.  It really hinders RP when there can't be any evil defilers, hermit magickers, or raiders.

And at even given time how many rangers out there are on? and how many will be in your city at the time you need to hire them? That sure as hell puts a lot of shit on hold.

[Zharal]

There are quit safe rooms out side the cities, you just have to find them.

[nameless]

I was aware of that, what I'm not to aware of frequency.  If there are like two out in the red desert, that seems almost the same as not having any at all.  Of course it all clearly IC info, I've just been dissappointed recently with my ranger characters when it comes to the whole exploring thing.

[HardCarbon]

I'm still playing my post-sandstorm ranger and haven't experienced any of these problems.

On the subject of playability, I agree that people shouldn't get stuck someplace for hours at a time, but how is that happening?

Are completely blinding, immobilizing sandstorms popping up without notice and staying for hours at a time?  I've never seen that happen - usually you either walk into a bad storm, or it develops over time with plenty of build up and expectation.  If it's going from nice to 0 visibility in one tick, that might be a bug.  If you go out travelling in mild-visibility then get stranded when the storm picks up... well, that's your own stupid fault for trying to beat the sandstorm.

  It does seem there have been a lot of storms recently..though that may just be bad luck .. or maybe a storm got stuck somewhere some how.. or its the work of evil magikers...who knows

[Revelations]

Just rooms and a few animals, right?  :roll:

Let's move away from why warriors and merchants shouldn't be in the dessert, and turn alittle toward magickers, aye? I think the stormcode affects them much more in these regards, since some might not have the option to remain in cities, or just might not want to be there.

So, if the subguild is chosen that gives you some ability to navigate in a storm, you're still going to drift randomly at times, and in a blinding sandstorm, that could mean several dozen rooms away from your intended quitesafe room. So subguilds don't help in that regard.

More quitsafe rooms, not only will that make the desert an easier place for warriors and such to hang around in (which is nothing near what the staff want, IMO), there still would be a very slim chance of making it to the room on the mark while blinded. Any randomness, be it one or two rooms, won't help if you need to travel five or more rooms in a sandstorm. That also means if roads gave a better chance to navigate, it still wouldn't help at all. So, bottom line, let's cut that idea out for now until someone comes up with an addition, agree?

(Just what I'm thinking, I don't think we need so many posts about things that have already been mentioned, unless you have something new to add. So what, you have an opinion, but not everyone likes to read the same idea over and over when it's already talked about. I have an interest in how this thread goes, so I'd like to see improvements and progress in this discussion, not just reinforcement of what people said.)

Okay, and there's talk about having more warning about an approaching storm. The current data that you get when out in the desert is enough. It might not be the best for newbies, since it doesn't warn you precisely when a storm is coming, but it gives enough information to those who are prepared to look for certain signs in the weather. Ten minutes is mostly enough time to get to quit-safe room, unless your walking, which quite foolish if you need to travel far, and with a good eye on the winds and visibility, you have plenty of warning when you might expect to see one coming. Armageddon isn't known for it's newbie friendliness, it's known for it's harshness, and you should have to be alert OOCly when in conditions such as Zalanthas. You need to work on staying alive, people, that's what makes the game so much more better. Nothing needs to change in that regards, WEATHER and LOOK give enough information. The more you spend time in the desert, the better you'll get at it. Playability issues from this code are mostly due to your own decisions, and getting stuck out in a sandstorm is likely due to one or few bad decisions down the road, speaking from my own mistakes. If you think there's a chance a sandstorm is brewing up, and you take that first few steps into that desert, you just took that chance into your own hands, regardless if it happens when a RL issue happens. Be prepared for it, take it into your own hands to lessen the chance of being helpless in the sandstorm as much as possible, and this supposed problem won't be an issue as much.

Being a big fan of seasons, I mention that once more, having faith that that is the most beneficial course to solving this problem, if not making the game better.  :wink:  I'm not totally against having more warnings of sandstorms, and hainvg seasons do just that.

At the end of the day, if you can simply stay away from getting caught in a sandstorm, as any beings that wishes to survive for long in the desert will do, the issue is practically solved. A magicker should have enough knowledge of the game by now to be able to handle themselves in such situations, and newbies shouldn't be wandering out in the desert by themselves in the first place without a knowledgeable and trustworthy guide. IMO...  :roll:  'nough said.

[Dracul]

I like the storm code...it's almost killed me a few times too.

[Ayashah]

Dons a "I'm with Pickelhead" T-shirt

[Zharal]

Dons a "I'm with Pickelhead" T-shirt

putting mine on as well.

[cyberpatrol_735]

Are NPCs affected by the storm code also? Say.. raptors, gith and such?

[Bardex]

The biggest gripe I see is with the storms that show up out of nowhere and last for several RL hours or even days. You can't plan for that. You just can't. I mean if you're a secret magicker you can't hire a ranger to watch your back so you can practice your magic outside the city. If you're the only PC elf in your tribe you can't ask a ranger desert elf of another tribe to watch your back while you go to do whatever your elf does, because elves don't trust each other.

If you say that only rangers should be able to see in storms, you're saying that all desert elves should be rangers. That's too limiting. I think the storms need to be tweaked, or at least looked at again. Some of them last way too long and are unplayable. If you're the only PC in a village, or outpost, or wherever, and you need to get back to the city and there's a storm outside, who exactly do you ask to help you get back? You're already safe, but you're in a place you don't want to be. For how many days real-time do you have to wait before you say fuck it and kill off your character and roll up a ranger so you don't have to deal with the monotony anymore?

[Delirium]

Are NPCs affected by the storm code also? Say.. raptors, gith and such?

Yes.

[Koala]

I think the stormcode affects them much more in these regards, since some might not have the option to remain in cities, or just might not want to be there.

If I remember correctly, there were some minor tweaks in code to benefit some magickers who may have a chance of survival in the desert. The other magickers, well, by their element's nature, they shouldn't step into the desert too much eventhough they wish to stay away from the cities. This is like the difference between a ranger and a warrior. Ranger has the ability to find his way in the desert, warrior hasn't. One magicker may know it somehow, the other may not. So, I don't think there should be any change to the storm code for magickers, because I believe our coders already did that.

I mean if you're a secret magicker you can't hire a ranger to watch your back so you can practice your magic outside the city. If you're the only PC elf in your tribe you can't ask a ranger desert elf of another tribe to watch your back while you go to do whatever your elf does, because elves don't trust each other.

I must say that if you are a secret magicker, your life isn't going to be an easy one. If you cannot hire a ranger (I agree that is is a very difficult task if you are a megicker), then you should find other means of practicing your magick. I can think of many ways of secretly practicing and admitedly desert isn't on the top of my list.
Being the only magicker PC in your d-elf clan is definetely going to cause you some problems, but this is a pure OOC restriction. We have a low player base to fill all the available clans out there, especially the d-elf clans. And if we change the code based on these OOC restrictions, we can never truly achieve the harshness of Zalanthian desert life. There is a trade off between the reality of our game and playability issues and my vote in this issue is with the reality of our game.

If you say that only rangers should be able to see in storms, you're saying that all desert elves should be rangers. That's too limiting. I think the storms need to be tweaked, or at least looked at again. Some of them last way too long and are unplayable. If you're the only PC in a village, or outpost, or wherever, and you need to get back to the city and there's a storm outside, who exactly do you ask to help you get back? You're already safe, but you're in a place you don't want to be. For how many days real-time do you have to wait before you say fuck it and kill off your character and roll up a ranger so you don't have to deal with the monotony anymore?

I totally agree with you and believe that if you are a d-elf or a human tribal, then you should get a minor bonus regardless of your class. Otherwise, in the future, we may lose our tribal players.

-----

To sum up, why we are arguing about the storm code? Because it is really harsh both ICly and OOCly. My point is that if you really want to implement something harsh (harsh is the way of life on Zalanthas), you should do this both ICly and OOCly, because this is a game not real life. There might be minor tweaks to the storm code to make it better and I am sure our coders are working on it by all means.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Picklehead really did state it as it should be stated. In both of his posts, he brought up virtually everything I would have said.

However, here is what I have in mind.

I beleive that roads should be almost obsolete from the losing-your-way syndrom. I would like to see a 1% chance, however, of losing your way. This way, it will never be utterly safe to travel, but it will almost be safe....this keeps the edge to it, along with the rabid gith and other threats. Of course, in the sort of Sandstorm where you can not see, I do not think you should be able to even utilize the road.

Secondly, I think that certian sub-classes, such as nomad and maybe hunter, to a lesser degree, need a slightly better chance of going in the general direction that they need to go. Instead of a 25% chance for a nomad, make it a 75% chance that he will go where he wants to go, and for a hunter, a 50% chance. Take away one skill from each of those sub-classes to make up for this new ability.

Nobody needs to be able to quit out freely besides for Rangers. However, a few more quit-safe caves and hollows and such would not hurt anything, not only in the case of the Sandstorm, but also for those bandits, magickers, etc.

I assure you that not everyone will pick these navigator sub-classes. Why? Because there are so many skills in Armageddon that there will always be a quandry about which subclass to pick, even if you play from an OOC perspective. If you can sorta find your way back in a storm, great, but you get shit else with the class, and what about making armor, or weapons, or sneaking, or any other number of things?

I love the Storm code. It makes you feel like anywhere outside of the city is dangerous, and so it is.