Why The Sandstorm Code Is Impractical

[Resurrect]

I don't like posting, but I really don't like the sandstorm code so here goes a nice little list and then I wash my hands of posting for another year or so.

Reasons why the Sandstorm Code is Impractical and Should Be Changed
1) 4 IC Days hunkering down in a blinding sandstorm when you've got places to go RL that you figured you could quit out within 2 hours to go to. It's a game, while I'm all for realism and harshness they should never interfere and put my PC at major risk because I didn't anticipate needing 2-3 hours to get back to a quit_safe location thanks to a sandstorm that won't quit.
2) Of all the classes, only one is useful outdoors now. The rest can become blinded, literally, by a switch of the wind with no knowledge that a storm is about to hit them. Since ranger is a major class and not a subclass, this poses a large problem because what if my character grew up out in the desert as a travelling merchant for a tribe? I can feasibly, at that point, know how to navigate storms but because I need/want to set my main class to something else I'm not allowed that option. So one class has become useful if you travel. Ever. The rest are pretty useless, regardless of race even from what I've noticed.
3) I was in a forest... And there was still a sandstorm. A forest.

Since I won't be posting rebuttals to anything said, here is a list of canned responses that will probably fit most of what's going to be said by ranger enthusiasts and people who are into insane realism.

1) Response: Sandstorm code is realistic. Rebuttal: Realistic or not, it's a game and when you can't quit out anywhere since you aren't a ranger, it makes that game hard to play therefore making the sandstorm code impractical for playing purposes which means it should be altered.
2) Response: Sandstorms are big and cover lots of area. Rebuttal: The nature of forests is to break wind and keep soil down. There shouldn't ever be a sandstorm in one. Especially deep inside one.
3) Response: Zalanthas is harsh, get over it. Rebuttal: Zalanthas is also imaginary and designed to be playable. If it weren't, nobody would live there since there are not (reasonably speaking) enough water sources for life to exist on any scale without the assistance of magick. If magick can make a pair of huge cities continue to live without real water supplies, we can safely assume magick can come up with a way to keep the major roadways clear of blinding sandstorms so that travel is still possible. Magick is, also, quite imaginary so lets use our imaginations and possibly come up with a way to make other classes playable outdoors so that way everyone besides rangers can continue to have fun.
4) Response: Why are you hating on the staffs hard work? Rebuttal: I'm not. I appreciate what staff does and tries to do with different types of code. However, I play this game and when I see something that strikes me as a major fault in playability I feel it is my duty as a player who likes contributing to the game to make a point of the fact that it frustrates hardcore armers like myself who have been around for half a decade or more which means that it'll probably make a lot of others consider quitting. Then you'll have a bunch of rangers running around in sandstorms with nobody to guide. The problem with a game like this is that there's really no way to thoroughly put code into 'test' before it goes into the open playability stage. Meaning that occasionally bad things happen, in this case it's the Sandstorm blinding/misdirection/make me go randomly up or down while im on a road/thing.
5) Response: If you don't like it then don't play. Rebuttal: It's a discussion forum, I rarely post and when I feel like doing it - I'm allowed to. If you don't like it, don't read it. I know I follow that rule religiously or else I'd post a lot more than I do. But to directly respond to that response, I like the game - a lot - just not the sandstorm code in its current variation.

I'm sure there will be other responses to this post that I haven't covered, but I don't have the capability of predicting everyones reaction to what I've said. I'm sure different people will agree on or pick apart different points. The fact is, I felt a need to point out that the sandstorm code as it currently stands reduces playability enormously. I won't give suggestions on how to fix it in a list since, well frankly, I'm tired of writing this post. However I hinted at a few various options up above.

That is all. I'll see you again when I come up with another post to petition.

[jhunter (not logged in)]

The only problem I have with it is that certain subguilds cannot navigate in storms the same way as a ranger. I think that caravan guide is one of them that should also have the ability. Probably only one or two others that I think should have it besides that though.

[Zharal]

I personally think the storm code is just fine the way it is.  You just have to learn to work around it, or play a class that is better suited for such enviorments.  Sands this is such a dead issue.

[jmordetsky]

The only problem I have with it is that certain subguilds cannot navigate in storms the same way as a ranger. I think that caravan guide is one of them that should also have the ability. Probably only one or two others that I think should have it besides that though.

Agreed. I was a very vocal opponent of the storm code, but since the tweaks have been made I think it's alot more reasonable.

However, I'm still sternly for certain subguilds getting a portion of the advantages in a storm that rangers currently have.

[Alberic]

I'm still a big newbie but here's my ill-informed opinion.

I am not a big fan of these sandstorms, but I think that if anything needs to be changed it's the sandstorms not letting more people have the ability to navigate the storms. It seems to me that the defining feature of the Ranger guild is their ability to navigate the storms and it makes them useful. If you make it so other guilds and subguilds get it then it makes the rangers far less appealing. If everyone has the ability to navigate storms then why would anyone hire a ranger? Warriors are better at fighting, rogues better at sneaking, and merchants better at merchanting.

Since ranger is a major class and not a subclass, this poses a large problem because what if my character grew up out in the desert as a travelling merchant for a tribe

In my opinion this doesn't hold much water. So what if you're a traveling merchant? The traveling part isn't the major aspect of your job. What you are doing is dealing with people in different cities and selling/making goods. Rangers, on the other hand, live most of their lives out of cities learning the ways of the desert. If you're a traveling merchant, chances are you would hire a ranger to guide you because he would know far more about the desert than any merchant (traveling or not). Also, if your character grew up in the desert and then became a merchant he was clearly focusing more on learning about being a merchant than learning about sandstorms.

It's a game, while I'm all for realism and harshness they should never interfere and put my PC at major risk because I didn't anticipate needing 2-3 hours to get back to a quit_safe location thanks to a sandstorm that won't quit.

If you aren't a ranger and you need to travel in the desert then hire one. It gives you and the ranger some RP, ensures you won't get trapped in the desert, and is more in-tune with how the gameworld seems to be set up. If you are a merchant, thief, warrior, or something else and you set out into the desert without a ranger guide, plan on getting stuck for several RL hours if a sandstorm pops up.

[amoeba]

I'll lay in my 2 sid for what it's worth.

- First a nicely thought out, well written post. It would be nice to see more done like this.
- I can see some of where Resurrect is coming from.  IMO, roads should be navigatible by everyone, albiet on a vastly slower pace.  Even if the storm was a  blinder, one could get down on hands and knees and feel around for the road.  If the road is visible there should be a high likelyhood of reaching it. They can see it. if it was not, then they should not be able to see it.  One concesquense of the storm code is that when there is a storm, there is virtually no one on the road.  No raiding opprotunities.  Yes, realistic, but limiting.  Making the roads somewhat passable during a storm would make it so that non-rangers could get around. And a reduced speed would make travel on them highly dangerous, ripe with opprotunities for raiding roleplay, as opposed to purley coded responses from the storm code.  Rangers would still be highly valuable.  You want to get somewhere safely (i.e. not the roads) use a ranger, otherwise take your chances.

[Incognito]

Nice post man.....

I just thought I'd add, that there *might* be some guilds who have better-than-normal regeneration during harsher weather, but are now helpless to take advantage of the situation because of their inability/difficulty to navigate during those times when their regeneration is high.....

Might be a tad bit frustrating....

[Tamarin]

My biggest beef with the storm code is that I now have to roleplay characters with sand in their underpants.  What a bitch.

[Revelations]

I'm still a big newbie but here's my ill-informed opinion.

I am not a big fan of these sandstorms, but I think that if anything needs to be changed it's the sandstorms not letting more people have the ability to navigate the storms. It seems to me that the defining feature of the Ranger guild is their ability to navigate the storms and it makes them useful. If you make it so other guilds and subguilds get it then it makes the rangers far less appealing. If everyone has the ability to navigate storms then why would anyone hire a ranger? Warriors are better at fighting, rogues better at sneaking, and merchants better at merchanting.

Since ranger is a major class and not a subclass, this poses a large problem because what if my character grew up out in the desert as a travelling merchant for a tribe

In my opinion this doesn't hold much water. So what if you're a traveling merchant? The traveling part isn't the major aspect of your job. What you are doing is dealing with people in different cities and selling/making goods. Rangers, on the other hand, live most of their lives out of cities learning the ways of the desert. If you're a traveling merchant, chances are you would hire a ranger to guide you because he would know far more about the desert than any merchant (traveling or not). Also, if your character grew up in the desert and then became a merchant he was clearly focusing more on learning about being a merchant than learning about sandstorms.

It's a game, while I'm all for realism and harshness they should never interfere and put my PC at major risk because I didn't anticipate needing 2-3 hours to get back to a quit_safe location thanks to a sandstorm that won't quit.

If you aren't a ranger and you need to travel in the desert then hire one. It gives you and the ranger some RP, ensures you won't get trapped in the desert, and is more in-tune with how the gameworld seems to be set up. If you are a merchant, thief, warrior, or something else and you set out into the desert without a ranger guide, plan on getting stuck for several RL hours if a sandstorm pops up.

Well, you seem to contridict yourself there abit. If I understand correctly, you stated that you would want more classes to be able to navigate inside sandstorms, but just a few sentences later you give a few reasons as to why classes other than rangers shouldn't get as good of an ability to travel in adverse weather. I'll simply follow through with that line of thought, since it's more of what I feel.  :wink:

Currently, in my opinion, the sandstorm code is perfectly fine as it is, and shows exactly how a game based upon harshness and realism in a desert world should be. Perhaps a few subclasses able to maneuver slightly better in sandstorms would be better, but definitely not near as much as the ranger. Here are my reasons.

In a desert world such as Zalanthas, the sandstorms that seems to be a problem here could be equivelent to the blizzards of the Arctic, or a storm on Mt. Everest, with powerful and often times dangerous gales; sand and grit everywhere including in your mouth, nose, and anus; and utter sense of darkness and blindness. Considering the weather conditions alone, I find it quite hard to believe any but the most skilled travellers could even navigate a few yards.

Now to the actual guilds having the sandstorm code, since that seems to be where the main topic is leading at. Warriors, thieves, merchants, and any other class besides the ranger shouldn't be out in the desert alone in the first place, unless you're for certain you have the necessary equipment and provisions prepared for anything such as tents to seek shelter during such storms and water and food. An expedition on Mt. Everest or in the Arctic, even if travelling for a few hours, wouldn't dare travel unless they had a good chance of making it to the next checkpoint and campsite, and even then would still have the necessary stuff for emergencies. So...I seem to have drifted off topic.
Anyways, all these classes wouldn't have as much experience travelling the deserts as a ranger does, who has practically -lived- in the wilds. The experience that a ranger has would far outweigh the knowledge another class might have. Perhaps a nonranger might know the way from Tuluk to Nak, or to Liur's, but they wouldn't know much about where the closest natural water source is, or how to make a protective and decent shelter without the aid of artificial material, or perhaps how to even dress properly for such travels considering the lack of education in the populace. With all these considered, getting hit by a sandstorm would top everything off, enough that people should have the probability of dying in the weather.

And there's also the sense of direction that would be needed to travel in any manner when blind. Even an experienced sailor in RL during a storm wouldn't have much of a clue which direction the ship was heading, none the less a civilian along for the ride. A ranger, being without such benefits as a compass, would have needed to rely upon his senses for his entire life, while a veteran warrior or travelling merchant wouldn't have developed such confidence on their senses. With a hurricane-like wind and stinging sand in your eyes, it would make it that much harder.

In conclusion, if anything was to change about the sandstorm code, it would be to make it even harsher. Yeah, I'm a strong following of harshness, but I also care about playability issues, which is why I don't push for getting small amounts of damage in sandstorms without shelter. :twisted:

Also, I wouldn't mind having some of the subclasses getting some small benefits that rangers do in sandstorms, but not very much.

If there's a compelling reason for being able to navigate well in blind conditions though, then it should be left up for special applications.

Hope that satisfies you nonrangers out there.  :wink:

[Edited to add] Another point I'd like to ellaborate. The current guilds all rely upon having other people around. Warriors focus primarily upon fighting others, whether animal or humanoid, and so need to be in contact with civilization if any use of their abilities are to be made. Merchants need humanoids the most, since that is their primary source of living. All the stealthy guilds need a human population for similar reasons. Of all of them, only a few would travel in the wilds frequently, and only the craziest or desperate would live out there alone. The ranger class, alone, would have spent most of their lives exposed to the rugged life, and would have grown accustomed to its perils. The some subclasses should probably allow some benefits (which this seems to me like the fifth time I've said this) but not nearly as much.

And about playability. Yes, it would make the game more playable to have classes and subclasses that have the travel ability, but not very realistic for the reasons stated above. It wouldn't be very smart either, to have a nonranger class wander out in the desert without an adequate guide, be it a caravan guide or hunter. *hint hint* If you want to play a character that can withstand such trials, then the ranger class is there right for you. Why make the game less realistic and exciting by toning down the effects of the stormcode if you don't need to? It's there for a purpose, and I feel it's doing a perfectly fine job.

Heh, I had one more point, but I got distracted by a phone call, so it seems I'll spare you guys this one time.  :wink:

[williamson]

I am in total and complete agreement with Resurrect.


I just don't think it adds much to the game and seriously hampers playability.
If the sandstorm code is going to stay, I think the navigation should be associated with a skill instead of a class (such as hunt)..

-Williamson

[adgohan]

**Disclaimer: This is meant to be a constructive post about the sandstorm code. I've tried to make everything in here as IC-free as possible.**

We have a problem.

When I am stuck on one side of the world for 2 RL weeks (excluding the day of reboot) then harshness has overwritten playability.

There are two main people who are effected by this code:
I. Desert Elves. (Non-Ranger)
II. Elementalists. (Independent)

Neither of these groups can reasonably "hire" a ranger to escort them around in a sandstorm that lasts several RL days. Both of the groups are prone to wandering. These classes are literally almost shut down in massive sandstorms. I know this is realistic, but it is very difficult for me to have to stay indoors for several RL days and role play because the storm outside is so vicious.

It's realistic to have massive sandstorms, but I believe they should be much less frequent, especially in the north.

Among other classes that also have problems:
1) Warriors who are also hunters.
2) Independent Merchants.
3) Those who wish to masquerade as a ranger but are actually something else. This is now a given OOC way to tell they aren't rangers, and I've watched it used.

Also, when I am 1 room from a gate, literally one room away, guards are there, and I am blown over 20 rooms off course to that gate when it is plain visible sight by the "look" command, this is also an issue.

I think to truly comprehend the power of this code, you need to play a non-ranger class that spends time in the wilds. A city character, an outdoors ranger, or someone who pilots caravans around only - cannot really get the idea behind this. Save major advocators of a harsher Zalanthas, most people who disagree with the sandstorm code are people who have played in it or a while and really have understood the frusteration involved in hours of being blown off course when you may need to log off or have an extraneous circumstance you must address.

The solution to this shouldn't be that I must play rangers or hire one (especially when it is aforementionedly unrealistic to do so) nor should it be to eliminate the code. Rather, I think making these vicious storms much less frequent would still provide a challenge while simultaneously removing the frusteration for a large amount of people playing in the wilds.

[Revelations]

Ah, well if that's the case, wouldn't it be better to have more frequent stormcodeless rooms? Perhaps being in certain vales and thickly vegetated regions in the forest would allow lesser effects of that kind, and have a few quitsafe rooms in the vicinity. That way, ungemmed and the waylaid travellers could seek a respite from the storm if they are close enough to the shelter, and it would also allow a larger field of operations and playability for the independents, as they would have more places to quit safely. There doesn't seem to be enough of the quitsafe rooms, but that is likely a topic for another thread. Anyways, let's try not to limit the stormcode, rather change other aspects of the game to better suite our...wants and needs.

[adgohan]

That is not viable because if I am one room away from a gate, I still cannot get into it. I would have to get lucky being blown off course until I landed in a quit safe room, and for that to happen there would have to be about three hundred new quit safe rooms.

[Vox]

I have to agree with the original poster and those who support his feelings about playability... While at the same time enjoying the harsh reality that the sandstorm brings. Adgohan captured a few other concerns quite well too.

My suggestion as a possible solution is to create 'seasons'. Perhaps the last month of every year is Storm Season... In which sandstorm code is in full raging effect... But the first and second month are totally free of sandstorms.. Natural sandstorms that is.

The concept of seasonal travel would be a great addition to Arm. Travelers scurrying between the cities and doing the majority of their trading in the first two months... Also this would make the appearance of a sandstorm during the other months a unique and special event. Perhaps a magickal sandstorm or something ominous.

As it is, Zalanthas is peppered with almost constant sandstorms and this truly hampers global RP.  How often has the big plan been to get an RPT in your clan to go out and do something awesome only to gather together and discover that there's a blinding sandstorm outside. That's no fun at all and we all know how difficult it is to coordinate RPTs.

So, I push for seasonal storms. Seasonal storms could also affect animal-life, perhaps there are breeds of animal that only hunt during the storms.. Perhaps before the storms come and then they 'vanish'. That way it's no gut-wrenching surprise, we all know it's going to be storm season for 2 rl weeks... As it stands it's ALWAYS storm season. 4 weeks of calm travel seems choice to me.

Seasonal storms. This idea opens the door to many others... but before I get carried away, what do the rest of you think?

[adgohan]

That's a totally reasonable idea, Vox. I would definitely be okay with that solution; as it preserves realism but still gives a challenge to people. I would say that even during the storm seasons, storms a little less frequent than what we've got now would be preferable. But definitely the occasional, "Oh man, look at that, looks like a week of Kruth or so" is tolerable. Just not so predictably every 2 days or so after a reboot until the next one.

Seasons is a neat solution. I'd like to see where we could go with that.

[WarriorPoet]

I think that's the best idea I've heard on this matter so far, Vox. Great stuff. The seasonal storms would create the busy season when the roads are alive with people moving, bandits waiting, and thigns going down, and the off season, when the winds are howling, merchants are counting their coins, and everyone else is laid up, playing darts or preparing goods for next years trading season.

Great idea, in my opinion. G-R-E-A-T.

-WP

[Revelations]

That idea, and also the addition of the ability to navigate in storms for certain subclasses would solve many problem. Would it lessen the purpose of the stormcode though?

...which leads me to thinking what exactly the imms had in mind when setting up the stormcode... :wink:

Anyways, I agree with the seasons.

[sacac]

And it would add more Depth to the game world.

[Alberic]

There are two main people who are effected by this code:
I. Desert Elves. (Non-Ranger)
II. Elementalists. (Independent)

Neither of these groups can reasonably "hire" a ranger to escort them around in a sandstorm that lasts several RL days. Both of the groups are prone to wandering. These classes are literally almost shut down in massive sandstorms. I know this is realistic, but it is very difficult for me to have to stay indoors for several RL days and role play because the storm outside is so vicious.

It's realistic to have massive sandstorms, but I believe they should be much less frequent, especially in the north.

I agree that if sandstorms are lasting for a RL week without end then maybe their frequency should be turned down to maybe 8-9 average hours per day. That way only about 1/3 of a RL day will be sandstorms so they won't totally prevent travel but they will still be frequent enough to be troublesome.

Among other classes that also have problems:
1) Warriors who are also hunters.
2) Independent Merchants.
3) Those who wish to masquerade as a ranger but are actually something else. This is now a given OOC way to tell they aren't rangers, and I've watched it used.

1) If they are primarily warriors then they don't have the skills of a person who spends the majority of their life navigating the desert. They may be skilled at hunting and killing animals but that doesn't mean they should know as much about desert life as a ranger.
2) Hire an independent ranger when you need to move between cities and problem is solved. Again, their focus is not on living in the desert. The desert is just something they pass through on their way from point A to point B so why would they have the same ability as someone who lives in the desert.
3) I don't see how this is an issue at all. No one is stopping you from pretending to be a ranger, but you are doing just that: PRETENDING. There is no reason someone trying to trick people into thinking they are a ranger should have the same abilities as someone who really IS a ranger. Along this same line of thought, everyone should be able to do magick because what if they want to pass themselves off as an elementalist. Or everyone should have the abilities of a Templar so they can pass themselves off as Templars.

I think to truly comprehend the power of this code, you need to play a non-ranger class that spends time in the wilds. A city character, an outdoors ranger, or someone who pilots caravans around only - cannot really get the idea behind this. Save major advocators of a harsher Zalanthas, most people who disagree with the sandstorm code are people who have played in it or a while and really have understood the frusteration involved in hours of being blown off course when you may need to log off or have an extraneous circumstance you must address.

I think that the solution to people being forced into hours of frustration by being lost in a sandstorm while trying to logout could be addressed by giving certain subguilds the ability to camp like rangers and quit in the wilderness. That way if you are a hunter and on your way back to a city and a big sandstorm blows up you could camp and wait it out. I also think that if you have the ability to camp you should be able to make a campsite so other people could log out in the wilderness with you. I believe this wouldn't affect the game terribly and it would give more reason to travel with a ranger or even a hunter or caravan guide (assuming they were given the ability to camp) as they could set up a camp for the group to quit at if they need to.

If I understand correctly, you stated that you would want more classes to be able to navigate inside sandstorms, but just a few sentences later you give a few reasons as to why classes other than rangers shouldn't get as good of an ability to travel in adverse weather.

Um, I don't think I ever said I want more classes to be able to navigate but if I did heres the correction: I'm against any guild or subguild besides rangers being able to navigate in storms.

As it is, Zalanthas is peppered with almost constant sandstorms and this truly hampers global RP. How often has the big plan been to get an RPT in your clan to go out and do something awesome only to gather together and discover that there's a blinding sandstorm outside. That's no fun at all and we all know how difficult it is to coordinate RPTs.

Then might I suggest your clan recruit more rangers? I do agree with the seasonal sandstorms suggestion or, if not that, that the frequency be reduced to 8-9 hours per RL total of sandstorms. Though I must once again point out that hiring rangers to help you travel seems to me to be a good roleplaying solution instead of just having the Imms change the code so every merchant and warrior/hunter can be a loner.

[flurry]

Vox -

That is an excellent suggestion and please please idea it if you haven't already.

I for one think it would make things more enjoyable and return a little more flexibility to non-ranger classes.   I like the harsh realism but right now I think it could still use a little tweaking in terms of playability.

[adgohan]

I can't get into the code on rangers and this board has never been the place for that. I don't want to raise hell or an argument. I stand by Vox's suggestion for seasonal sandstorms and I think what he has said holds true.

I respectfully agree to disagree with Alberic and most supporters of this sandstorm code, and with that I'm stepping out of the discussion.

Another time.

[Anonymous]

I have no experience with the sandstorm code due to having a PC that just wouldn't die, damnit.  However I will say that my previous experience with sandstorms that lasted for forever annoyed me to the point of just logging out.  Red Storm is just not a fun place to be sanded in for a RL day or more, not unless Kurac is having a bubble of activity there.

If Xygax's sandstorm code makes sandstorms more or less vicious I don't so much care about.  If the duration was/is lowered, I can only think that would be a good thing, even if the frequency is increased.

[jmordetsky]

I have to agree with the original poster and those who support his feelings about playability... While at the same time enjoying the harsh reality that the sandstorm brings. Adgohan captured a few other concerns quite well too.

My suggestion as a possible solution is to create 'seasons'. Perhaps the last month of every year is Storm Season... In which sandstorm code is in full raging effect... But the first and second month are totally free of sandstorms.. Natural sandstorms that is.

The concept of seasonal travel would be a great addition to Arm. Travelers scurrying between the cities and doing the majority of their trading in the first two months... Also this would make the appearance of a sandstorm during the other months a unique and special event. Perhaps a magickal sandstorm or something ominous.

As it is, Zalanthas is peppered with almost constant sandstorms and this truly hampers global RP.  How often has the big plan been to get an RPT in your clan to go out and do something awesome only to gather together and discover that there's a blinding sandstorm outside. That's no fun at all and we all know how difficult it is to coordinate RPTs.

So, I push for seasonal storms. Seasonal storms could also affect animal-life, perhaps there are breeds of animal that only hunt during the storms.. Perhaps before the storms come and then they 'vanish'. That way it's no gut-wrenching surprise, we all know it's going to be storm season for 2 rl weeks... As it stands it's ALWAYS storm season. 4 weeks of calm travel seems choice to me.

Seasonal storms. This idea opens the door to many others... but before I get carried away, what do the rest of you think?

I think that is an awesome idea. I've had a few RPTizzles whacked by storms as well.

[Anonymous]

I play a non ranger in the most storm ridden place in the known world, and do just fine.  Intelligence and adaptability are the key.  The weather (direction) command is very useful as well as some simple observation of the weather and its nuances.  In my opinion the storm code is good aside perhaps the sandstorms in the deep forest as mentioned earlier.  I am however for a subguild that imparts some of the ranger navigation ability.  If it's hailing obsidian don't go out without a helmet.

[elvenchipmunk]

Sweet idea Vox. It'll be great to be a raider and -know- when the merchants are going to be travelling. Or be a merchant and -know- when they can and can't travel because of weather (atleast for the most part).

Again, really awesome idea, hope it gets implemented.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

CRW wrote:

If the duration was/is lowered, I can only think that would be a good thing, even if the frequency is increased.

I agree entirely. Or perhaps, decreasing the frequency but keeping the duration the same. Point is, right now frequency and duration are both rather crazy, and I'd like to see their numbers fiddled with somewhat.

[Ranger Baby]

I've been playing a ranger since before the new sandstorm changes went in, so I don't really know how bad it is.

However, I'd like to throw out there that as long as the roads and trails can be safely travelled (as far as sandstorms go) then the system seems fine to me.  I think ranger skills have been pawned out through subclasses enough already as it is; before the sandstorm changes went in, it was too easy to surpass a ranger's abilities through other guild/sub-guild options.

The bottom line is that every class has something that they do better than other classes.  Warriors fight better, assassins kill better, thieves steal better, and rangers travel better.  As long as the sandstorm stuff doesn't affect roads and trails where a path is clearly and plainly marked out, I'm fine with it.  So your warrior/hunter isn't the best hunter in the game now?  Tough beans.  Next time play a ranger if you want to be the best hunter.

[hcwalker]

I agree with Resurrect's post 100%.  

I appreciate the coding that went into this change in the game, however I think it sacrifices both playability and realism in some ways as it is currently implemented.  

For example, travellers on roads should never be randomly moved away from the road they are travelling on when they are able see the room description.  This is impractical and somewhat unrealistic.  Roads exist so that people don't always need rangers to travel in the world.

I think people who aren't rangers should move around randomly or semirandomly if there is zero visability, rather than just go where ever they want to go regardless of the weather.  And in my opinion, when there is a less severe sandstorm, if they are moved around randomly at all, it should be far less frequent.

I also feel that giving a subclass the ability to navigate storms might be a good compromise.

[Maybe42or54]

How is this one:
Instead, of randomly getting moved around in a sandstorm where you can see the next room, you get a healthy addition to lag between rooms?
Zero visibility you move randomly and have added room lag?

[Alberic]

However, I'd like to throw out there that as long as the roads and trails can be safely travelled (as far as sandstorms go) then the system seems fine to me.  I think ranger skills have been pawned out through subclasses enough already as it is; before the sandstorm changes went in, it was too easy to surpass a ranger's abilities through other guild/sub-guild options.

The bottom line is that every class has something that they do better than other classes.  Warriors fight better, assassins kill better, thieves steal better, and rangers travel better.  As long as the sandstorm stuff doesn't affect roads and trails where a path is clearly and plainly marked out, I'm fine with it.  So your warrior/hunter isn't the best hunter in the game now?  Tough beans.  Next time play a ranger if you want to be the best hunter.

I totally agree. If you give the hunter subguild the ability to navigate like a ranger then why would anyone play rangers? Warrior/hunters would be just as good if not better at everything than a ranger.

Letting subguilds have the navigate ability will just result in almost everyone who plans to leave the city playing warrior/hunters, merchant/caravan guides, assassin/hunters, etc. So now we go from where sandstorms were troublesome and dangerous to where they are nothing except a mild annoyance.

I also have to say that I don't see the pressing need to change the way sandstorms work (except the sandstorms in forests thing). It looks to me like Arm is surviving even with the sandstorms. The primary complaint seems to be that they delay you from logging out when you really need to and I suggested a solution for that in my last post. Besides the logging out thing, if you are having trouble traveling with sandstorms then it seems to me like they are working the way they were meant to.

[moab]

I'm down with Ressurect.
We need to either:
1. have a subguild that can navigate sandstorms.
2. have a subguild that can quit anywhere
3. allow everyone to quit out (no reason not too, imo)
4. allow everyone to navigate sandstorms (why not?)

Messing with playability is bad for the game.  I have a full-time job, plenty of after work activities, a wife and other demands for my free time.

I do not like accidently getting stuck in a blinding sandstorm when I can get a couple of hours to play.  I hate worse having to travel a RL hour so I can quit out so I can grab a couple of hours of RL sleep.

[Kankman]

Without having much else of use to say, if I were stuck in a sandstorm and needed to go, it would be a matter of dropping link saying this might be the time the sandstorm killed my character. It is deadly dangerous to be in them, after all. Quitting out is an OOC construct of staying alive in other life or death situations, is it not?

[Maybe42or54]

However, I'd like to throw out there that as long as the roads and trails can be safely travelled (as far as sandstorms go) then the system seems fine to me.  I think ranger skills have been pawned out through subclasses enough already as it is; before the sandstorm changes went in, it was too easy to surpass a ranger's abilities through other guild/sub-guild options.

The bottom line is that every class has something that they do better than other classes.  Warriors fight better, assassins kill better, thieves steal better, and rangers travel better.  As long as the sandstorm stuff doesn't affect roads and trails where a path is clearly and plainly marked out, I'm fine with it.  So your warrior/hunter isn't the best hunter in the game now?  Tough beans.  Next time play a ranger if you want to be the best hunter.

I totally agree. If you give the hunter subguild the ability to navigate like a ranger then why would anyone play rangers? Warrior/hunters would be just as good if not better at everything than a ranger.

Letting subguilds have the navigate ability will just result in almost everyone who plans to leave the city playing warrior/hunters, merchant/caravan guides, assassin/hunters, etc. So now we go from where sandstorms were troublesome and dangerous to where they are nothing except a mild annoyance.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with this.
Giving -one- subclass the ability to navigate through the sandstorm good enough so that they don't wander for hours would do a lot of good.
Don't give it to hunter, or caravan guide. Give it to nomad.


Take warrior/nomad
They are an awesome fighter that knows how to travel. Can they track down and ride perfectly? Hell no. Can they kill a mekillot in one arrow through the skull? Hell no. Can they fight good because they are barely ever in the city. (The wastes are a dangerous place, you know?) Yea, so what? So I think they would be great fighter, or good enough fighters to survive.

Merchant/nomad
So they can navigate the globe, good for them. They still can't defend themselves from an armed jozhal.

Pick-pocket claiming to be a ranger? He can do it, hell yea.

Adding the navigate to nomad (or creating a class) would be a damn good idea, IMHO.

[Maybe42or54]

And further more, with the accent addition to nomads, it would stop them from joining most noble houses, letting those real rangers get those real jobs.

[HardCarbon]

Oh HELL no!!!!  I went warrior instead of ranger with my current character and all I keep telling myself is... DAMM I wish I was a ranger so I could go out in the storm...

[Ghost]

Without having much else of use to say, if I were stuck in a sandstorm and needed to go, it would be a matter of dropping link saying this might be the time the sandstorm killed my character. It is deadly dangerous to be in them, after all. Quitting out is an OOC construct of staying alive in other life or death situations, is it not?

Good approach.

[Revelations]

Here's what I feel about any changes, because enacting one would cause no need to change the other:

:arrow: If subguilds are allowed some benefits of travelling that rangers do, keep the sandstorm code as it is.
:arrow: If seasons were implemented, no additional benefits to subguilds and no change in sandstorm code.
:arrow: If the frequency of sandstorms were brought down, or duration lowered, no additional benefits to subguilds.
:arrow: If no change was to happen, then a probable reason would probably be desired.
:arrow: Other

So which is most desired by the player base?

[jmordetsky]

Here's what I feel about any changes, because enacting one would cause no need to change the other:

:arrow: If subguilds are allowed some benefits of travelling that rangers do, keep the sandstorm code as it is.
:arrow: If seasons were implemented, no additional benefits to subguilds and no change in sandstorm code.
:arrow: If the frequency of sandstorms were brought down, or duration lowered, no additional benefits to subguilds.
:arrow: If no change was to happen, then a probable reason would probably be desired.
:arrow: Other

So which is most desired by the player base?

Subguild change. I like a lot of storms makes the world harsher and keeps city types in the cities. You couldn't survive on zalanthas outdoors regardless of season if you weren't trained to do so. However, lets get some flexibility on who has outdoor survival training and who doesn't.

I don't like that the storm codes forces a lack of flexibility in my character background. For example, if I want to app a Hermit cast out tribal Krathi I should be able to select nomad as my subguild and get the benefits of being able to navigate (to some extent) a storm.

Not that I could it as well as a ranger...but I should have some advantage over Warrior Archer Bob.  For fucks sake, I speak Bendune and have lived most of my lift outdoors!

Essentially as it is now, the code essentially infers that if you have studied the art of mercantilism, warriorship (isword?), or are effected by an element, theres no way you spent enough time in the desert to also learn the art of navigating a storm. Or a Caravan Guide....Guys...It's a "CARAVAN" "GUIDE". Meaning, I chose this subclass so I could "GUIDE" "CARAVANS".

It's tarded.  It needs to be changed.

Will you suddenly see a bazillion Warrior/Nomad, Warrior/Hunters, Warrior/Caravan Guides...

Yes, but I think thats the breaks and worth what we have now.

[Ghost]

But well.. We do navigate in storms.  Just not the strongest ones.

The storm code only has effects if the storm is "blinding biting sand whips around you" or the only possible one notch up this, where you don't even see your own feet.

The "terrible biting sand whips around you" or lower storms are navigatable by all.

[jhunter (not logged in)]

Or a Caravan Guide....Guys...It's a "CARAVAN" "GUIDE". Meaning, I chose this subclass so I could "GUIDE" "CARAVANS".

It's tarded. It needs to be changed.

Will you suddenly see a bazillion Warrior/Nomad, Warrior/Hunters, Warrior/Caravan Guides...

Yes, but I think thats the breaks and worth what we have now.

Damned straight. Although I don't think the Hunter subguild should get it. Just Nomad and Caravan guide. Those of the hunter subguild should be lesser hunters than those of the ranger guild, in alot of ways they are (obviously) I think it makes sense that they probably wouldn't do their hunting in a full out storm, since they are only mediocre hunters.
Being able to navigate in a storm makes more sense for a Caravan guide or a Nomad.

[Revelations]

Personally, I take either no change at all, or with the seasonal changes. Discussed on another thread. The reasons to tone down the sandstorm code is because it affects playability reasons, but I don't see any reason to change anything if you just take blinding storms into account when your travelling, and it doesn't occur often besides near red storm, where it -should- happen often. Yes, it places you in difficult situations when you have RL problems, but the sandstorm code makes the game entirely more realistic for those who aren't hampered by a sudden RL situation. And what I generally think this issue has become is more of a discussion to tone down the sandstorm code because of OOC frustrations by not being able to make things go smoothly. It's a game, but the code should be there to keep the game harsh and realistic.

Most other reasons, such as an RPT needing to be held off, or travel issues for merchants and such, don't have much of an argument to change what a realistic code is doing. In these situations, dealing with adverse weather -should- be incorporated into events, no matter how important it may be to players.

If anything is to change, I say the seasons, for reasons stated in the seasons thread. Go there for further discussion.  :roll:

[sacac]

And since when can you get confused and go the wrong way when you are walking on a ledge that you never wanted to go on anyway?
And then, when you fall off the cliff, and catch yourself. How do you lose your way when you are trying to climb back up?

[Reiloth]

Okay. Subguilds or not. Whatever.

Try 4 hours, literally, ina  sandstorm, at 4 in the morning

Being unable to do anything.

Having one of the most important RL meetings of your life tommorow, yet feeling very torn about just going LD.

ASFOISJDOIJSGOIJ

[Yokunama]

I'm down with Ressurect.
We need to either:
1. have a subguild that can navigate sandstorms.
2. have a subguild that can quit anywhere
3. allow everyone to quit out (no reason not too, imo)
4. allow everyone to navigate sandstorms (why not?)

Messing with playability is bad for the game.  I have a full-time job, plenty of after work activities, a wife and other demands for my free time.

I do not like accidently getting stuck in a blinding sandstorm when I can get a couple of hours to play.  I hate worse having to travel a RL hour so I can quit out so I can grab a couple of hours of RL sleep.

There are some things you must take into consideration before agreeing with one side.

1) Having a subguild that can navigate through sandstorms would create lots of problems. Some players would chose this subguild, in order the cheat the system. Another problem is the abuse of this subguild. Also, some players would chose this subguild only because it can "navigate" through "sandstroms".

2) Having a subguild that could quit everywhere would take out most of the fun in the game. Players could abuse this factor also, mind you. If a player were to have become a target for a bandit, he'd just simply walk off a few rooms and quit. Or if a player got stuck in a sandstrom, they'd just simply quit until it raises up. I'm not saying that this doesn't already happen with those who play with the ranger guild.

3) read #2

4) read #1

[Yokunama]

**Disclaimer: This is meant to be a constructive post about the sandstorm code. I've tried to make everything in here as IC-free as possible.**

We have a problem.

When I am stuck on one side of the world for 2 RL weeks (excluding the day of reboot) then harshness has overwritten playability.

There are two main people who are effected by this code:
I. Desert Elves. (Non-Ranger)
II. Elementalists. (Independent)

Neither of these groups can reasonably "hire" a ranger to escort them around in a sandstorm that lasts several RL days. Both of the groups are prone to wandering. These classes are literally almost shut down in massive sandstorms. I know this is realistic, but it is very difficult for me to have to stay indoors for several RL days and role play because the storm outside is so vicious.

It's realistic to have massive sandstorms, but I believe they should be much less frequent, especially in the north.

Among other classes that also have problems:
1) Warriors who are also hunters.
2) Independent Merchants.
3) Those who wish to masquerade as a ranger but are actually something else. This is now a given OOC way to tell they aren't rangers, and I've watched it used.

Also, when I am 1 room from a gate, literally one room away, guards are there, and I am blown over 20 rooms off course to that gate when it is plain visible sight by the "look" command, this is also an issue.

I think to truly comprehend the power of this code, you need to play a non-ranger class that spends time in the wilds. A city character, an outdoors ranger, or someone who pilots caravans around only - cannot really get the idea behind this. Save major advocators of a harsher Zalanthas, most people who disagree with the sandstorm code are people who have played in it or a while and really have understood the frusteration involved in hours of being blown off course when you may need to log off or have an extraneous circumstance you must address.

The solution to this shouldn't be that I must play rangers or hire one (especially when it is aforementionedly unrealistic to do so) nor should it be to eliminate the code. Rather, I think making these vicious storms much less frequent would still provide a challenge while simultaneously removing the frusteration for a large amount of people playing in the wilds.

Warriors are not hunters. Yes, they can use their melee skills to take down a few animals here and there, but they are not actual hunters. Also, they are not survivalist in the wilderness. They do not have the knowledge of tracking, finding food, nor know the wilderness like your average ranger would.

Warrior Guild:
http://www.armageddon.org/general/guilds.html#warrior

What in the hell would a merchant possiably do with sandstorm navigation? Independant Merchants can do fairly well without this skills, and I've seen a lot of them do it. They really have no purpose out in the wilderness, unless they were going from town to town, and if they needed something from the wilderness, they should be able to pay someone to do it. Being an independant merchant isn't all about working alone and for yourself.

Merchant Guild:
http://www.armageddon.org/general/guilds.html#merchant

Those people who wish to pretend that they are rangers, but in themselves they are totally not should have those things happen to them. If they want to trick someone into thinking that they know how to navigate through the sandstorms, then they really deserve it. Just because you want to pretend that you are a ranger doesn't give your character the knowledge to roam about in a sandstorm freely. Thats like saying a waiter can pretend to be a scientist, but now they should be able to clone people. Things just do not work like that.

[amoeba]

1) Having a subguild that can navigate through sandstorms would create lots of problems. Some players would chose this subguild, in order the cheat the system. Another problem is the abuse of this subguild.

Define abuse and/or cheating.  Fairly nebulous it seems.

Also, some players would chose this subguild only because it can "navigate" through "sandstroms".

Well..ya. Like players choose archer so they can use a bow, or linguist so they can speak other languages, damn cheaters.

2) Having a subguild that could quit everywhere would take out most of the fun in the game. Players could abuse this factor also, mind you. If a player were to have become a target for a bandit, he'd just simply walk off a few rooms and quit. Or if a player got stuck in a sandstrom, they'd just simply quit until it raises up. I'm not saying that this doesn't already happen with those who play with the ranger guild.

Anything can be abused. Players could quit in the middle of guard duty/latrine duty/barracks cleaning so they wouldn't have to what they wanted and log back in when it was over.  I could come up with a huge list of cheats along this line. Point is there are methods for dealing with this type of thing.  

The way I read it is there are two base issues with the storm code.

1. RL issues. It is the one "common" thing in the game that could cause RL  Issues unexpectedlly.  Having two hours to play, going out a 1/2 hour into to get wood, then being caught by the sudden onset of a sandstorm can create RL problems for someone.  On the short I would think it would be reasonable to wish up and explain why you should be quit out.  (I would like an IMM to weigh in on this).  Long term, have advance notice that a deblitating storm is coming, perhaps have more quit safe points that a traveller could stumble into in the areas commonly used by non-rangers. (I'm a bit iffy about the second option)

2. Playablity issues. This is harder. Having other guilds being able to navigate? Eh, does it really solve a problem? Having everyone able to navigate? No, then why have a storm code at all, why storms?  I do think however there should be some navigatiblity on the roads for all.  In RL you get lost, you find a stream or something, and follow it to something. Here if one at was lucky enough to stumble onto a road, as least they could slowly  make progress.  Of course all the raiders/gith/critters will have noticed all the increased traffic on the roads and will make life miserable for the traveler, but at least then it's playable.

[Zharal]

I personally think that no sub guild should have the ability of a ranger to quit out in the wilds, It is a skill that I belive is very unique to there class.
It is what makes a ranger a ranger.  They are skilled at survival in the harsh conditions of Armageddon they are able to travel slowly through areas that are home to them as well as set up camp for the night or longer periods of time as needed.  I do belive however that certain sub guilds that fit the nature should be able to move through harsh storms but at a very limited rate and not nearly as good as a ranger.  Ofcorse this is just in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

A few points:

1)  Some warriors are hunters.  What is the hunter subguild for anyway?  Maybe they are not superb hunters like rangers, but they should be able to get out there and make some sort of living.

2)  For various reasons, some non-rangers and non-hunters need to live or spend most of their time in the desert.  There is such a thing as a hermit.  I do not think that any subclasses or classes other than rangers should be able to quit anywhere, but I think there should be a few more quit safe rooms scattered around for this reason.

3)  On further reflection, I think that the sandstorm code should remain as it is but be much less harsh.  For example, for a non-ranger, if visibility is 3 leagues when you look in a direction, no possibility of moving randomly.  If visibility is 2 leagues, essentially no possibility of moving randomly.  If visibility is 1 league, small chance of moving in the wrong direction (maybe 1/25).  If visibibility is just your room (~ 1/10).  If you cannot see the room description, very high odds of moving randomly (5/10 or more).  This will keep things realistic, keep people from spam moving all over the world in bad weather, yet still allow for playability.

4)  People who say there is no role for a ranger in the absence of the current storm code are incorrect in my opinion.  Rangers can do many, many things of great usefulness, navigating the desert being only one of them.  Rangers are not tanks like warriors, but warriors clearly have their own limitations.

5)  There are times when real life and playability are important.  I have a demanding job.  I have played arm in spurts for years, and I enjoy it thoroughly.  In my opinion being caught in a sandstorm in the middle of the night (real life) is not fun, and I won't log in if I know I'm going to be stuck in one and I need to go somewhere in-game.  Going link dead is not a reasonable option in a permadeath game.

[Ranger Baby]

I'm still playing my post-sandstorm ranger and haven't experienced any of these problems.

On the subject of playability, I agree that people shouldn't get stuck someplace for hours at a time, but how is that happening?

Are completely blinding, immobilizing sandstorms popping up without notice and staying for hours at a time?  I've never seen that happen - usually you either walk into a bad storm, or it develops over time with plenty of build up and expectation.  If it's going from nice to 0 visibility in one tick, that might be a bug.  If you go out travelling in mild-visibility then get stranded when the storm picks up... well, that's your own stupid fault for trying to beat the sandstorm.

[picklehead]

Enough already. I'm tired of this whining about being caught out in a storm and how it's not playable. Boohoo. You probably don't belong out there in the first place. The deserts have storms. Sometimes they're bad and you get lost. You -know- this is a possibility. Solution? Don't go out there without making adequate preparations. You want to chop wood? Hire a scrub-hopper to keep an eye on the surrounding grove and help you out should a storm come up. You probably wont have to pay them much and they'll get: a) coin earned without having to bust their ass hunting all day and b) a chance to rp out some situations other than hunting. You'll get: a) someone to let you know when that tembo/halfling/raider/puffthemagicdragon starts coming to close and b) someone to guide you back to the city should a storm come up.

People need to start thinking outside the box more when it comes to hiring other people to help them. There's quite a few independents sitting around on any given day, but most of the time nobody ever hires anyone unless it's for something BIG. You don't need a big task to make it worth your while to hire someone. If you've got a small task, it's probably not going to cost you much as it's not likely to be a high-risk or a big expenditure of time. Meanwhile that guy at the bar will probably do it for the same reasons, plus it'll net him some coin and give him something to do other than scratch his ass and swat at bugs.

I think part of the problem is that some people want to be able to cruise across the wastes leading a caravan while fighting off a horde of gith. Or be that travelling merchant who can reap the most extreme profits while navigating the wastes all by himself without hiring anyone to help them. Most anything you want to do you can do with the guild/subguilds, but it just takes some time and effort. You want to be a travelling merchant? Be a ranger/nomad. You want to be a badass warrior who never gets lost in a storm? Well, I guess you're going to have to go ranger then and put in an assload of playing time. But letting hunters/caravanguide/nomad have the ranger ability to navigate the storms just so their warrior badasses can roam around? No thanks. Warrior/hunter combinations are for mercenary/swordsmen types who spend their downtime bringing down some game to feed themselves.

The stormcode's fine, you people just need to hire some assistance or stay indoors where you belong. If you want to play a concept that involves you being in the desert a whole lot, play a ranger, that's what it's there for. There's plenty of subguilds to combine with the ranger class to play whatever concept you have in mind.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

One thing that's always irked me about the whole "hire a ranger" thing is, well, how do you hire a ranger? Walk up to them and say "Hey, are you a ranger?" Go OOC and ask? And when they tell you they aren't, make up an IC excuse for not hiring them? Assume all hunters are rangers? Assume everyone with a bow is a ranger? Ask things like, "so should the storm of the King's Age descend upon our travelling party, would you happen to have magickal eyes that would guide us through it?"
While increasing interaction is great, how do you know you're getting your money's worth without being a twink?

[Jherlen]

While increasing interaction is great, how do you know you're getting your money's worth without being a twink?

You don't.    If some guy tells you he can guide you back and then gets your ass lost, you're screwed. Welcome to Armageddon.

I agree with everything picklehead said. If you aren't a ranger, be scared to go outside alone.

[amoeba]

Enough already. I'm tired of this whining about being caught out in a storm and how it's not playable. Boohoo.

It's a discussion forum, where people discuss ideas. Relax a bit. The original poster put forth a well written, well thought out post.  You are welcome to disagree with it. I do somewhat. But comments like these are what keep people from posting or even reading the gdb.

The stormcode's fine, you people just need to hire some assistance or stay indoors where you belong.

I would like to see more hiring in the game as well.  It's not always practical, if we had 60+ players at all times I'd say yes of course hire someone. But what about the off times players? It's not always an option.  This thread has been beaten to death, but there are some interesting ideas, and I'm sure eventually things will be tweaked up over the years.

[Yokunama]

1) Having a subguild that can navigate through sandstorms would create lots of problems. Some players would chose this subguild, in order the cheat the system. Another problem is the abuse of this subguild.

Define abuse and/or cheating.  Fairly nebulous it seems.

Also, some players would chose this subguild only because it can "navigate" through "sandstroms".

Well..ya. Like players choose archer so they can use a bow, or linguist so they can speak other languages, damn cheaters.

2) Having a subguild that could quit everywhere would take out most of the fun in the game. Players could abuse this factor also, mind you. If a player were to have become a target for a bandit, he'd just simply walk off a few rooms and quit. Or if a player got stuck in a sandstrom, they'd just simply quit until it raises up. I'm not saying that this doesn't already happen with those who play with the ranger guild.

Anything can be abused. Players could quit in the middle of guard duty/latrine duty/barracks cleaning so they wouldn't have to what they wanted and log back in when it was over.  I could come up with a huge list of cheats along this line. Point is there are methods for dealing with this type of thing.  

The way I read it is there are two base issues with the storm code.

1. RL issues. It is the one "common" thing in the game that could cause RL  Issues unexpectedlly.  Having two hours to play, going out a 1/2 hour into to get wood, then being caught by the sudden onset of a sandstorm can create RL problems for someone.  On the short I would think it would be reasonable to wish up and explain why you should be quit out.  (I would like an IMM to weigh in on this).  Long term, have advance notice that a deblitating storm is coming, perhaps have more quit safe points that a traveller could stumble into in the areas commonly used by non-rangers. (I'm a bit iffy about the second option)

2. Playablity issues. This is harder. Having other guilds being able to navigate? Eh, does it really solve a problem? Having everyone able to navigate? No, then why have a storm code at all, why storms?  I do think however there should be some navigatiblity on the roads for all.  In RL you get lost, you find a stream or something, and follow it to something. Here if one at was lucky enough to stumble onto a road, as least they could slowly  make progress.  Of course all the raiders/gith/critters will have noticed all the increased traffic on the roads and will make life miserable for the traveler, but at least then it's playable.

Replying to red text:
Yea, that is the biggest problem. Trying to find a way to save and quit during a sandstorm, because of some event in the real world. I wouldn't have no problem leaving my character in the game, if we didn't have those players who like to take advantage of idle characters.

Replying to cyan text:
Hey, you might be onto something there. How about implementing a "follow road <direction>" command that allows players to travel the roads, until they get at a fork or something in the road? This could allow non-rangers to navigate through storm using the road, but it would make travel much slower in the sandstorms.

[Zharal]

Im with you picklehead.  I myself am tiring of this debate...  Suck it up folks, theres far worse things then sandstorms.  Next thing you know people are gonna start complaining about food and water intake.

[picklehead]

One thing that's always irked me about the whole "hire a ranger" thing is, well, how do you hire a ranger? Walk up to them and say "Hey, are you a ranger?" Go OOC and ask? And when they tell you they aren't, make up an IC excuse for not hiring them? Assume all hunters are rangers? Assume everyone with a bow is a ranger? Ask things like, "so should the storm of the King's Age descend upon our travelling party, would you happen to have magickal eyes that would guide us through it?"
While increasing interaction is great, how do you know you're getting your money's worth without being a twink?

If it were me I'd just go up and ask them if they could do the things my character needed: "I need you to keep an eye on the surrounding area while I work and let me know if any potential trouble is coming my way. If a storm comes up, I'll need you to help me get back to the city before it gets too bad." Do you end up gleaning some OOC info that way? Possibly, but you're really just doing what your character would do to satisfy his own needs. Now, as Jherlen said, you really have no way of knowing if you'll be getting your money's worth, since the person you talk to could lie through their teeth about what they're capable of and end up screwing you, but you take chances like that in pretty much every interaction that occurs in the game.

[WarriorPoet]

How about making those storms not quite so sudden? I know I've been out on a fairly low-wind day, had the weather change, and in that single instant it go from manageable storm to a shrieking demon.

So, the Mud decides it's time for a storm. A big one. At the moment, though, there is only a little wind.

First you get an echo: The wind dies for a brief moment before whipping up once more, blown from a new direction.

This starts a five/three minute timer. Once it gets halfway through it's alloted time, another echo: The force of the wind increases, kicking up ever more sand and grit into stinging swirls.

Finally, as the timer runs out, the storm begins to scream and visibility becomes zero, you get the final echo: A particularly fierce gust of wind picks a cloud of sand, whipping it around you and stinging your eyes and any exposed patches of skin. The dunes around you are quickly obscured, and soon only the storm is visible.

This would give everyone a bit of time to kick back to a city, or at least hunt a hole in which to wait out the nastiness or quit out if you feel you must.

Just an thought.

-WP

[sacac]

Inkhore. No, just no.
The storm needs to be tweaked a little, or the subguilds need to be. One of them needs to evolve with the other.
Are rangers the -only- ones supposed to be -in- the desert?

If everyone picked the subclass that had "Storm navigation", then they wouldn't get added crafting skills, or the ability to sap someone, or speak 90 languages off the bat, or and or, and or.

Now, Storm Navigation can't be added to hunter, because then it could be overpowered if Warrior picked it. And do hunters really spend -all- there time in the savage wastes? Maybe PCs do, but I don't see a large number of VNPCs doing this. In my opinion.

How about Scavenger? I like the idea of Storm navigation being added there, seriously.

Taken from the helpfiles:

Scavengers, skilled in surviving the wilds, particularly ruins such as those of Tuluk, are quick to find items and have a shrewd eye towards their possible worth. In order to find objects out of reach of others they have learned to find paths that aren't apparent to the casual observer, and go into caves, windows, and holes in the wall which require a short climb.

Sounds like they could drop to the ground and crawl back the way they came if they are skilled in surviving the wilds.

Editted to add:
Why can't I stop "whining" about it? Not enough rangers to go around.

[Ghost]

Scavangers do not scavange in the middle of the storm.  They stay in a shelter or something.

I do believe a full proof sandstorm navigation is too much to come with a subguild.

And as it is, people already navigate in the storms.  Just NOT the blinding storms.  Blinding it is.

[sacac]

Right. Not full proof Storm Navigation, I don't want that for any subguild.
Just a "slight ability" to do so.
Blinding ones last "Supposedly" 4 days, or so.

Something needs to be tweaked with. I just don't know what.

[Delirium]

/me dons a shirt that says, "I'm with picklehead."

[Yokunama]

Editted to add:
Why can't I stop "whining" about it? Not enough rangers to go around.

Agreed,
If the playerbase has lived with it for quiet some time, why is it such a problem now?

[nameless]

There should be Quit-safe rooms out there in the sands.  Atlest a lot more because I've never seen one out side of a city.  It really hinders RP when there can't be any evil defilers, hermit magickers, or raiders.

And at even given time how many rangers out there are on? and how many will be in your city at the time you need to hire them? That sure as hell puts a lot of shit on hold.

[Zharal]

There are quit safe rooms out side the cities, you just have to find them.

[nameless]

I was aware of that, what I'm not to aware of frequency.  If there are like two out in the red desert, that seems almost the same as not having any at all.  Of course it all clearly IC info, I've just been dissappointed recently with my ranger characters when it comes to the whole exploring thing.

[HardCarbon]

I'm still playing my post-sandstorm ranger and haven't experienced any of these problems.

On the subject of playability, I agree that people shouldn't get stuck someplace for hours at a time, but how is that happening?

Are completely blinding, immobilizing sandstorms popping up without notice and staying for hours at a time?  I've never seen that happen - usually you either walk into a bad storm, or it develops over time with plenty of build up and expectation.  If it's going from nice to 0 visibility in one tick, that might be a bug.  If you go out travelling in mild-visibility then get stranded when the storm picks up... well, that's your own stupid fault for trying to beat the sandstorm.

  It does seem there have been a lot of storms recently..though that may just be bad luck .. or maybe a storm got stuck somewhere some how.. or its the work of evil magikers...who knows

[Revelations]

Just rooms and a few animals, right?  :roll:

Let's move away from why warriors and merchants shouldn't be in the dessert, and turn alittle toward magickers, aye? I think the stormcode affects them much more in these regards, since some might not have the option to remain in cities, or just might not want to be there.

So, if the subguild is chosen that gives you some ability to navigate in a storm, you're still going to drift randomly at times, and in a blinding sandstorm, that could mean several dozen rooms away from your intended quitesafe room. So subguilds don't help in that regard.

More quitsafe rooms, not only will that make the desert an easier place for warriors and such to hang around in (which is nothing near what the staff want, IMO), there still would be a very slim chance of making it to the room on the mark while blinded. Any randomness, be it one or two rooms, won't help if you need to travel five or more rooms in a sandstorm. That also means if roads gave a better chance to navigate, it still wouldn't help at all. So, bottom line, let's cut that idea out for now until someone comes up with an addition, agree?

(Just what I'm thinking, I don't think we need so many posts about things that have already been mentioned, unless you have something new to add. So what, you have an opinion, but not everyone likes to read the same idea over and over when it's already talked about. I have an interest in how this thread goes, so I'd like to see improvements and progress in this discussion, not just reinforcement of what people said.)

Okay, and there's talk about having more warning about an approaching storm. The current data that you get when out in the desert is enough. It might not be the best for newbies, since it doesn't warn you precisely when a storm is coming, but it gives enough information to those who are prepared to look for certain signs in the weather. Ten minutes is mostly enough time to get to quit-safe room, unless your walking, which quite foolish if you need to travel far, and with a good eye on the winds and visibility, you have plenty of warning when you might expect to see one coming. Armageddon isn't known for it's newbie friendliness, it's known for it's harshness, and you should have to be alert OOCly when in conditions such as Zalanthas. You need to work on staying alive, people, that's what makes the game so much more better. Nothing needs to change in that regards, WEATHER and LOOK give enough information. The more you spend time in the desert, the better you'll get at it. Playability issues from this code are mostly due to your own decisions, and getting stuck out in a sandstorm is likely due to one or few bad decisions down the road, speaking from my own mistakes. If you think there's a chance a sandstorm is brewing up, and you take that first few steps into that desert, you just took that chance into your own hands, regardless if it happens when a RL issue happens. Be prepared for it, take it into your own hands to lessen the chance of being helpless in the sandstorm as much as possible, and this supposed problem won't be an issue as much.

Being a big fan of seasons, I mention that once more, having faith that that is the most beneficial course to solving this problem, if not making the game better.  :wink:  I'm not totally against having more warnings of sandstorms, and hainvg seasons do just that.

At the end of the day, if you can simply stay away from getting caught in a sandstorm, as any beings that wishes to survive for long in the desert will do, the issue is practically solved. A magicker should have enough knowledge of the game by now to be able to handle themselves in such situations, and newbies shouldn't be wandering out in the desert by themselves in the first place without a knowledgeable and trustworthy guide. IMO...  :roll:  'nough said.

[Dracul]

I like the storm code...it's almost killed me a few times too.

[Ayashah]

Dons a "I'm with Pickelhead" T-shirt

[Zharal]

Dons a "I'm with Pickelhead" T-shirt

putting mine on as well.

[cyberpatrol_735]

Are NPCs affected by the storm code also? Say.. raptors, gith and such?

[Bardex]

The biggest gripe I see is with the storms that show up out of nowhere and last for several RL hours or even days. You can't plan for that. You just can't. I mean if you're a secret magicker you can't hire a ranger to watch your back so you can practice your magic outside the city. If you're the only PC elf in your tribe you can't ask a ranger desert elf of another tribe to watch your back while you go to do whatever your elf does, because elves don't trust each other.

If you say that only rangers should be able to see in storms, you're saying that all desert elves should be rangers. That's too limiting. I think the storms need to be tweaked, or at least looked at again. Some of them last way too long and are unplayable. If you're the only PC in a village, or outpost, or wherever, and you need to get back to the city and there's a storm outside, who exactly do you ask to help you get back? You're already safe, but you're in a place you don't want to be. For how many days real-time do you have to wait before you say fuck it and kill off your character and roll up a ranger so you don't have to deal with the monotony anymore?

[Delirium]

Are NPCs affected by the storm code also? Say.. raptors, gith and such?

Yes.

[Koala]

I think the stormcode affects them much more in these regards, since some might not have the option to remain in cities, or just might not want to be there.

If I remember correctly, there were some minor tweaks in code to benefit some magickers who may have a chance of survival in the desert. The other magickers, well, by their element's nature, they shouldn't step into the desert too much eventhough they wish to stay away from the cities. This is like the difference between a ranger and a warrior. Ranger has the ability to find his way in the desert, warrior hasn't. One magicker may know it somehow, the other may not. So, I don't think there should be any change to the storm code for magickers, because I believe our coders already did that.

I mean if you're a secret magicker you can't hire a ranger to watch your back so you can practice your magic outside the city. If you're the only PC elf in your tribe you can't ask a ranger desert elf of another tribe to watch your back while you go to do whatever your elf does, because elves don't trust each other.

I must say that if you are a secret magicker, your life isn't going to be an easy one. If you cannot hire a ranger (I agree that is is a very difficult task if you are a megicker), then you should find other means of practicing your magick. I can think of many ways of secretly practicing and admitedly desert isn't on the top of my list.
Being the only magicker PC in your d-elf clan is definetely going to cause you some problems, but this is a pure OOC restriction. We have a low player base to fill all the available clans out there, especially the d-elf clans. And if we change the code based on these OOC restrictions, we can never truly achieve the harshness of Zalanthian desert life. There is a trade off between the reality of our game and playability issues and my vote in this issue is with the reality of our game.

If you say that only rangers should be able to see in storms, you're saying that all desert elves should be rangers. That's too limiting. I think the storms need to be tweaked, or at least looked at again. Some of them last way too long and are unplayable. If you're the only PC in a village, or outpost, or wherever, and you need to get back to the city and there's a storm outside, who exactly do you ask to help you get back? You're already safe, but you're in a place you don't want to be. For how many days real-time do you have to wait before you say fuck it and kill off your character and roll up a ranger so you don't have to deal with the monotony anymore?

I totally agree with you and believe that if you are a d-elf or a human tribal, then you should get a minor bonus regardless of your class. Otherwise, in the future, we may lose our tribal players.

-----

To sum up, why we are arguing about the storm code? Because it is really harsh both ICly and OOCly. My point is that if you really want to implement something harsh (harsh is the way of life on Zalanthas), you should do this both ICly and OOCly, because this is a game not real life. There might be minor tweaks to the storm code to make it better and I am sure our coders are working on it by all means.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Picklehead really did state it as it should be stated. In both of his posts, he brought up virtually everything I would have said.

However, here is what I have in mind.

I beleive that roads should be almost obsolete from the losing-your-way syndrom. I would like to see a 1% chance, however, of losing your way. This way, it will never be utterly safe to travel, but it will almost be safe....this keeps the edge to it, along with the rabid gith and other threats. Of course, in the sort of Sandstorm where you can not see, I do not think you should be able to even utilize the road.

Secondly, I think that certian sub-classes, such as nomad and maybe hunter, to a lesser degree, need a slightly better chance of going in the general direction that they need to go. Instead of a 25% chance for a nomad, make it a 75% chance that he will go where he wants to go, and for a hunter, a 50% chance. Take away one skill from each of those sub-classes to make up for this new ability.

Nobody needs to be able to quit out freely besides for Rangers. However, a few more quit-safe caves and hollows and such would not hurt anything, not only in the case of the Sandstorm, but also for those bandits, magickers, etc.

I assure you that not everyone will pick these navigator sub-classes. Why? Because there are so many skills in Armageddon that there will always be a quandry about which subclass to pick, even if you play from an OOC perspective. If you can sorta find your way back in a storm, great, but you get shit else with the class, and what about making armor, or weapons, or sneaking, or any other number of things?

I love the Storm code. It makes you feel like anywhere outside of the city is dangerous, and so it is.

[proxie]

Okay, here's an idea or two.

1) The subguild of caravan guide and nomad could be restricted for obviously city based classes like: burglar/pickpocket/perhaps assassin. That would help limit some of the people trying to make an uber pc that can do it all. Maybe have the stealthy/outdoorsy combination be available through special app or karma to give it to people who will use it appropriately.

2) Maybe desert navigation for other classes/subclasses could be on a percentage system. Rangers are perfect straight out of the box, caravan guides and nomads start at 50% straight out of the box, everybody else will take years to get good, thus equalling the amount of time needed to be spent outside in blinding storms to figure out how to navigate.

3) Rangers are the only class that can lead people in the storms. So yeah, Janebob the Merchant/caravan guide can get herself back to civilization with a reasonable amount of success, but the rest of her caravan is screwed, so it's just too bad she didn't hire a ranger to lead it. And good luck on that pack kank she's leading while she rides her other one.

4) I really think whirans should get something to help them out in storms if they don't have it already. The wind is supposed to be their element, if they have to hunker down inside their cave/temple/city, then they can't go out and take advantage of it.

5) Perhaps there needs to be a bedroll or tent object that you buy (not cheaply) that if you have it in your inventory, it gives you the ability to quit out in a non standard location, but it only has a few uses. (It gets damaged too badly by the storms for extended use.) Then the person who knows they're going outside without a ranger can pick up one before they leave so they don't have to always leave their pc linkdead in the blinding wastes so they can go to work in the morning. But their kank is stuck and runs the risk of getting kidnapped/killed or running away.  I'm sure Kurac has their gnomish inventors or whatever working on something like this.

6) I'd like to see some people with a controlling ability over the weather. I was in Nak once and we had a templar that had to put off something or other because it was storming and night. Don't you think that the Highlord would give his henchpeople some ability to make sure his justice and whims can be met at any time of the day?  Maybe an area affect that reduces the severity of a storm a few points in the immediate area of the caster? Templar(in their city only)/whiran/rukkian?/defiler?


Predicting storms... if the wind's blowing strongly, that usually means it's going to start storming soon folks.  I'd say you have less than a day to batten down the hatches and run to the grocer/watering hole to stock up on supplies before it hits, and you don't want to be caught outside at night, that's for sure.

That said, I do wish that they would get over quicker, usually by Tuesday, if a storm's hit, I know it's going to be crummy weather until the game crashes or imm day.

Just a few ideas... discuss.

Proxie

[Dracul]

Really....weather n is even more useful than look north.


Just take the time. I've played rouge magickers out in the desert and by using that I find it pretty simple to stay alive. And yes...sometime...I do just have to sit it out inside/not go outside.

Desert elves though...shouldnt 'all' be rangers...but warrior delves, magicker delves. It's like there something 'wrong' with them. When making one you should probally consider that, a warrior desert elf has some very seroius faults to his/her character. Why do they keep getting lost when the rest of their tribe has no problem...bah.
Shaman Delves though...that I think is the main focal point. But...those are suppose to be rare because of all their other advantages...of course.

[flurry]

Although I would like to see some changes made with regard to the current storm code, I have to say I hate the idea of subguilds having the ability to navigate storms.  A reduced penalty maybe, but definitely not matching rangers IMHO.

I do think rangers should be unique in this regard.  My only concern is the extent to which the storms are an issue now.  

I love the idea of seasons as a way of addressing this.

[sacac]

Me also.
I'm not saying we need all of these, but one of them.

1. Decrease the duration of full-effect sandstorms.

2. Make one of the subguilds have half the skill in a sandstorm than a ranger. Or Full ability as a ranger, but they can't lead anyone with full effect.

3. Seasons.

[Revelations]

Decrease the duration -and- seasons. You got everyone's problem solved with just that. A small increase in the ability to travel in a blinding sandstorm, like I mentioned earlier, won't help much unless your only a few rooms away from a city-state. Even then, you won't manage to get inside the gates unless your fortunate. Maybe, if anything was to be changed with subguilds, a chance to drift in 3 or 4 steps might do alittle good, but I don' think it's worth all the trouble of coding it. Any lesser percent of randomness isn't realistic, and any more would be practically useless to get to a quitsafe room or gate.

[Elgiva]

I don't see any problem with current system, but I like the idea of "one-message-warning" before weather changes drastically.
Just my opinion.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The ability to follow a road (you know, the hard cobble or the flagstones as opposed to the drifting sand) would work just fine for trying to get back inside the city.

[jhunter]

4) I really think whirans should get something to help them out in storms if they don't have it already. The wind is supposed to be their element, if they have to hunker down inside their cave/temple/city, then they can't go out and take advantage of it.

I agree, the same with Rukians. A blinding sandstorm is compose of two main elements which falls under the realm of Whira and Ruk.

[Yokunama]

2. Make one of the subguilds have half the skill in a sandstorm than a ranger. Or Full ability as a ranger, but they can't lead anyone with full effect.

If you want sandstorm navigation, play a ranger.

[sacac]

I don't want the navigation, I want to get into a massive city without getting lost and walking the wrong way.

[Praetorian]

4) I really think whirans should get something to help them out in storms if they don't have it already. The wind is supposed to be their element, if they have to hunker down inside their cave/temple/city, then they can't go out and take advantage of it.

I agree, the same with Rukians. A blinding sandstorm is compose of two main elements which falls under the realm of Whira and Ruk.

What?!?  Are you insane?  If Ruk was minding his own business and left his dirt on the ground where it belongs, none of us would be having this trouble!  Its Ruk being a little crack whore and getting all 'up and riled up' that causes them sandstorms!  I think in Allanak if a sandstorm lasts for a long time people should start throwing feces and rotten fruit at their temple and practitioners in angered protest!  Its probably their fault anyways...those twisted vile things...blame them, HATE them, KILL THEM ALL!!!

[jhunter]

4) I really think whirans should get something to help them out in storms if they don't have it already. The wind is supposed to be their element, if they have to hunker down inside their cave/temple/city, then they can't go out and take advantage of it.

I agree, the same with Rukians. A blinding sandstorm is compose of two main elements which falls under the realm of Whira and Ruk.

What?!?  Are you insane?  If Ruk was minding his own business and left his dirt on the ground where it belongs, none of us would be having this trouble!  Its Ruk being a little crack whore and getting all 'up and riled up' that causes them sandstorms!  I think in Allanak if a sandstorm lasts for a long time people should start throwing feces and rotten fruit at their temple and practitioners in angered protest!  Its probably their fault anyways...those twisted vile things...blame them, HATE them, KILL THEM ALL!!!

Mmmmmm....crack whores....

[ashyom]

Consider that these maxxed out storms have the power to ruin your homes, to send kanks flying, to rip the very flesh off your bones...Picture trying to walk in worst hurricane Florida has ever experienced, and factor in the sand as well as flying debris.  Think you'd be able to stay upright?  And be able to fight 100 MPH+ winds to get to the bar across the town?  I don't think I could or would, heh.

This is basically why we haven't altered the storm code so you can navigate the city or roads.  It isn't that you don't know the way nor that you can't feel/see the roads; rather, the problem is the force of the storm is so strong that it forces you into different, random directions, regardless of your desires.  Rangers, or so I imagine them to, can more easily find the path of least resistance in the storms, and use that knowledge to travel to their destination.  

However, I do agree that there could be more of an advance warning, though from what I know of the code, I'm not entirely sure whether that's doable for a few reasons.  I'll try and snag one of the coders this week and see what he thinks.  
I also agree that playability is important, and will ask whether we can tweak the code to make sure the maxxed storms doesn't last RL days.
Ashyom

[Tamarin]

If the logic behind this is that storms should cause physical harm, then why aren't they coded as such?

[Dracul]

Yeah Ashoym, why don't they cause damnag...huh...huh...

I would support damage though, and seasons as in the other thread.

[ashyom]

We did discuss it at one time, but the idea was discarded in favor of playability.  If ya'all are interested, though, I can bring it up again.  

100H/100>
E walking out of the building

100H/100>
A kank flies overhead.

100H/100>
Emote looks up in disbelief.

100H/100>
The winds rips your skin, exposing muscles, organs and bones.

10H/100>
think Oh shit!

*BEEP*

:twisted:

[sacac]

This is basically why we haven't altered the storm code so you can navigate the city or roads.  It isn't that you don't know the way nor that you can't feel/see the roads; rather, the problem is the force of the storm is so strong that it forces you into different, random directions, regardless of your desires.  Rangers, or so I imagine them to, can more easily find the path of least resistance in the storms, and use that knowledge to travel to their destination.  
Ashyom

A random direction? Wouldn't we just -Go- with the wind? Or get blown down like we were drunken?
I think rangers would go with the wind, but a little more in the direction they wanted to go.

[Tamarin]

Maybe we should re-think just how harsh this world's winds and sandstorms actually are.  Especially since there is no water nearby, and you really need some kind of huge body of water to have a diverse enough ecosystem to warrant the kind of storm that can throw kanks and disentegrate humans into their more baser components.

[Dracul]

...sea of silt?
REST of the know world...
Ravaged by magick?
We don't need to rethink the storm code.

And seriously, although that is WICKED...what was posted...90hp damage...beep. I really would like to see minor damage done in violent storms. And even ways to possibly prevent it (like camping, a tent...that would work as it is already if damage was only implemented) , although that delves into more code. So...bleh.

But still. *thumbs up*  And it would affect my character...negatively.

[Yokunama]

...sea of silt?
REST of the know world...
Ravaged by magick?
We don't need to rethink the storm code.

And seriously, although that is WICKED...what was posted...90hp damage...beep. I really would like to see minor damage done in violent storms. And even ways to possibly prevent it (like camping, a tent...that would work as it is already if damage was only implemented) , although that delves into more code. So...bleh.

But still. *thumbs up*  And it would affect my character...negatively.

Responding to red text:
You have to remember that these are people from another world, and they are physically built to withstand the sandy winds pelting their skins, the temperature, and a few more things. Also, think about this minor damage over long periods of time. Many people would have long lost their characters in the sandy storms, due to this minor damage.

People are already complaining about it, and theres no need to keep them going.

[Revelations]

Well, for the realism fanatics, all you need is to be prepared for storms with a handy tent, which I think should be practically a must if it wasn't a game. But, for the sake of playability, I wouldn't push too much for damage during a sandstorm. Yeah, it would be great for the veterans to get more excitement when travelling, but not very good for the entirely independant and the new players, who might know how or a way to gather the money. If tents were cheaper, I'd reconsider.

[ashyom]

Okay, this thread's getting a bit long, and I've seen some good ideas.  I already emailed one of the coders regarding them, and we'll see what he says.  In the interest of keeping GDB running smoothly, I'll go ahead and lock this.  If anyone else comes up with a genius idea for additions or modifications to the weather code, feel free to email me, or the mud.

Thanks for the feedbacks!
Ashyom