Why The Sandstorm Code Is Impractical

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

CRW wrote:

If the duration was/is lowered, I can only think that would be a good thing, even if the frequency is increased.

I agree entirely. Or perhaps, decreasing the frequency but keeping the duration the same. Point is, right now frequency and duration are both rather crazy, and I'd like to see their numbers fiddled with somewhat.

[Ranger Baby]

I've been playing a ranger since before the new sandstorm changes went in, so I don't really know how bad it is.

However, I'd like to throw out there that as long as the roads and trails can be safely travelled (as far as sandstorms go) then the system seems fine to me.  I think ranger skills have been pawned out through subclasses enough already as it is; before the sandstorm changes went in, it was too easy to surpass a ranger's abilities through other guild/sub-guild options.

The bottom line is that every class has something that they do better than other classes.  Warriors fight better, assassins kill better, thieves steal better, and rangers travel better.  As long as the sandstorm stuff doesn't affect roads and trails where a path is clearly and plainly marked out, I'm fine with it.  So your warrior/hunter isn't the best hunter in the game now?  Tough beans.  Next time play a ranger if you want to be the best hunter.

[hcwalker]

I agree with Resurrect's post 100%.  

I appreciate the coding that went into this change in the game, however I think it sacrifices both playability and realism in some ways as it is currently implemented.  

For example, travellers on roads should never be randomly moved away from the road they are travelling on when they are able see the room description.  This is impractical and somewhat unrealistic.  Roads exist so that people don't always need rangers to travel in the world.

I think people who aren't rangers should move around randomly or semirandomly if there is zero visability, rather than just go where ever they want to go regardless of the weather.  And in my opinion, when there is a less severe sandstorm, if they are moved around randomly at all, it should be far less frequent.

I also feel that giving a subclass the ability to navigate storms might be a good compromise.

[Maybe42or54]

How is this one:
Instead, of randomly getting moved around in a sandstorm where you can see the next room, you get a healthy addition to lag between rooms?
Zero visibility you move randomly and have added room lag?

[Alberic]

However, I'd like to throw out there that as long as the roads and trails can be safely travelled (as far as sandstorms go) then the system seems fine to me.  I think ranger skills have been pawned out through subclasses enough already as it is; before the sandstorm changes went in, it was too easy to surpass a ranger's abilities through other guild/sub-guild options.

The bottom line is that every class has something that they do better than other classes.  Warriors fight better, assassins kill better, thieves steal better, and rangers travel better.  As long as the sandstorm stuff doesn't affect roads and trails where a path is clearly and plainly marked out, I'm fine with it.  So your warrior/hunter isn't the best hunter in the game now?  Tough beans.  Next time play a ranger if you want to be the best hunter.

I totally agree. If you give the hunter subguild the ability to navigate like a ranger then why would anyone play rangers? Warrior/hunters would be just as good if not better at everything than a ranger.

Letting subguilds have the navigate ability will just result in almost everyone who plans to leave the city playing warrior/hunters, merchant/caravan guides, assassin/hunters, etc. So now we go from where sandstorms were troublesome and dangerous to where they are nothing except a mild annoyance.

I also have to say that I don't see the pressing need to change the way sandstorms work (except the sandstorms in forests thing). It looks to me like Arm is surviving even with the sandstorms. The primary complaint seems to be that they delay you from logging out when you really need to and I suggested a solution for that in my last post. Besides the logging out thing, if you are having trouble traveling with sandstorms then it seems to me like they are working the way they were meant to.

[moab]

I'm down with Ressurect.
We need to either:
1. have a subguild that can navigate sandstorms.
2. have a subguild that can quit anywhere
3. allow everyone to quit out (no reason not too, imo)
4. allow everyone to navigate sandstorms (why not?)

Messing with playability is bad for the game.  I have a full-time job, plenty of after work activities, a wife and other demands for my free time.

I do not like accidently getting stuck in a blinding sandstorm when I can get a couple of hours to play.  I hate worse having to travel a RL hour so I can quit out so I can grab a couple of hours of RL sleep.

[Kankman]

Without having much else of use to say, if I were stuck in a sandstorm and needed to go, it would be a matter of dropping link saying this might be the time the sandstorm killed my character. It is deadly dangerous to be in them, after all. Quitting out is an OOC construct of staying alive in other life or death situations, is it not?

[Maybe42or54]

However, I'd like to throw out there that as long as the roads and trails can be safely travelled (as far as sandstorms go) then the system seems fine to me.  I think ranger skills have been pawned out through subclasses enough already as it is; before the sandstorm changes went in, it was too easy to surpass a ranger's abilities through other guild/sub-guild options.

The bottom line is that every class has something that they do better than other classes.  Warriors fight better, assassins kill better, thieves steal better, and rangers travel better.  As long as the sandstorm stuff doesn't affect roads and trails where a path is clearly and plainly marked out, I'm fine with it.  So your warrior/hunter isn't the best hunter in the game now?  Tough beans.  Next time play a ranger if you want to be the best hunter.

I totally agree. If you give the hunter subguild the ability to navigate like a ranger then why would anyone play rangers? Warrior/hunters would be just as good if not better at everything than a ranger.

Letting subguilds have the navigate ability will just result in almost everyone who plans to leave the city playing warrior/hunters, merchant/caravan guides, assassin/hunters, etc. So now we go from where sandstorms were troublesome and dangerous to where they are nothing except a mild annoyance.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with this.
Giving -one- subclass the ability to navigate through the sandstorm good enough so that they don't wander for hours would do a lot of good.
Don't give it to hunter, or caravan guide. Give it to nomad.


Take warrior/nomad
They are an awesome fighter that knows how to travel. Can they track down and ride perfectly? Hell no. Can they kill a mekillot in one arrow through the skull? Hell no. Can they fight good because they are barely ever in the city. (The wastes are a dangerous place, you know?) Yea, so what? So I think they would be great fighter, or good enough fighters to survive.

Merchant/nomad
So they can navigate the globe, good for them. They still can't defend themselves from an armed jozhal.

Pick-pocket claiming to be a ranger? He can do it, hell yea.

Adding the navigate to nomad (or creating a class) would be a damn good idea, IMHO.

[Maybe42or54]

And further more, with the accent addition to nomads, it would stop them from joining most noble houses, letting those real rangers get those real jobs.

[HardCarbon]

Oh HELL no!!!!  I went warrior instead of ranger with my current character and all I keep telling myself is... DAMM I wish I was a ranger so I could go out in the storm...

[Ghost]

Without having much else of use to say, if I were stuck in a sandstorm and needed to go, it would be a matter of dropping link saying this might be the time the sandstorm killed my character. It is deadly dangerous to be in them, after all. Quitting out is an OOC construct of staying alive in other life or death situations, is it not?

Good approach.

[Revelations]

Here's what I feel about any changes, because enacting one would cause no need to change the other:

:arrow: If subguilds are allowed some benefits of travelling that rangers do, keep the sandstorm code as it is.
:arrow: If seasons were implemented, no additional benefits to subguilds and no change in sandstorm code.
:arrow: If the frequency of sandstorms were brought down, or duration lowered, no additional benefits to subguilds.
:arrow: If no change was to happen, then a probable reason would probably be desired.
:arrow: Other

So which is most desired by the player base?

[jmordetsky]

Here's what I feel about any changes, because enacting one would cause no need to change the other:

:arrow: If subguilds are allowed some benefits of travelling that rangers do, keep the sandstorm code as it is.
:arrow: If seasons were implemented, no additional benefits to subguilds and no change in sandstorm code.
:arrow: If the frequency of sandstorms were brought down, or duration lowered, no additional benefits to subguilds.
:arrow: If no change was to happen, then a probable reason would probably be desired.
:arrow: Other

So which is most desired by the player base?

Subguild change. I like a lot of storms makes the world harsher and keeps city types in the cities. You couldn't survive on zalanthas outdoors regardless of season if you weren't trained to do so. However, lets get some flexibility on who has outdoor survival training and who doesn't.

I don't like that the storm codes forces a lack of flexibility in my character background. For example, if I want to app a Hermit cast out tribal Krathi I should be able to select nomad as my subguild and get the benefits of being able to navigate (to some extent) a storm.

Not that I could it as well as a ranger...but I should have some advantage over Warrior Archer Bob.  For fucks sake, I speak Bendune and have lived most of my lift outdoors!

Essentially as it is now, the code essentially infers that if you have studied the art of mercantilism, warriorship (isword?), or are effected by an element, theres no way you spent enough time in the desert to also learn the art of navigating a storm. Or a Caravan Guide....Guys...It's a "CARAVAN" "GUIDE". Meaning, I chose this subclass so I could "GUIDE" "CARAVANS".

It's tarded.  It needs to be changed.

Will you suddenly see a bazillion Warrior/Nomad, Warrior/Hunters, Warrior/Caravan Guides...

Yes, but I think thats the breaks and worth what we have now.

[Ghost]

But well.. We do navigate in storms.  Just not the strongest ones.

The storm code only has effects if the storm is "blinding biting sand whips around you" or the only possible one notch up this, where you don't even see your own feet.

The "terrible biting sand whips around you" or lower storms are navigatable by all.

[jhunter (not logged in)]

Or a Caravan Guide....Guys...It's a "CARAVAN" "GUIDE". Meaning, I chose this subclass so I could "GUIDE" "CARAVANS".

It's tarded. It needs to be changed.

Will you suddenly see a bazillion Warrior/Nomad, Warrior/Hunters, Warrior/Caravan Guides...

Yes, but I think thats the breaks and worth what we have now.

Damned straight. Although I don't think the Hunter subguild should get it. Just Nomad and Caravan guide. Those of the hunter subguild should be lesser hunters than those of the ranger guild, in alot of ways they are (obviously) I think it makes sense that they probably wouldn't do their hunting in a full out storm, since they are only mediocre hunters.
Being able to navigate in a storm makes more sense for a Caravan guide or a Nomad.

[Revelations]

Personally, I take either no change at all, or with the seasonal changes. Discussed on another thread. The reasons to tone down the sandstorm code is because it affects playability reasons, but I don't see any reason to change anything if you just take blinding storms into account when your travelling, and it doesn't occur often besides near red storm, where it -should- happen often. Yes, it places you in difficult situations when you have RL problems, but the sandstorm code makes the game entirely more realistic for those who aren't hampered by a sudden RL situation. And what I generally think this issue has become is more of a discussion to tone down the sandstorm code because of OOC frustrations by not being able to make things go smoothly. It's a game, but the code should be there to keep the game harsh and realistic.

Most other reasons, such as an RPT needing to be held off, or travel issues for merchants and such, don't have much of an argument to change what a realistic code is doing. In these situations, dealing with adverse weather -should- be incorporated into events, no matter how important it may be to players.

If anything is to change, I say the seasons, for reasons stated in the seasons thread. Go there for further discussion.  :roll:

[sacac]

And since when can you get confused and go the wrong way when you are walking on a ledge that you never wanted to go on anyway?
And then, when you fall off the cliff, and catch yourself. How do you lose your way when you are trying to climb back up?

[Reiloth]

Okay. Subguilds or not. Whatever.

Try 4 hours, literally, ina  sandstorm, at 4 in the morning

Being unable to do anything.

Having one of the most important RL meetings of your life tommorow, yet feeling very torn about just going LD.

ASFOISJDOIJSGOIJ

[Yokunama]

I'm down with Ressurect.
We need to either:
1. have a subguild that can navigate sandstorms.
2. have a subguild that can quit anywhere
3. allow everyone to quit out (no reason not too, imo)
4. allow everyone to navigate sandstorms (why not?)

Messing with playability is bad for the game.  I have a full-time job, plenty of after work activities, a wife and other demands for my free time.

I do not like accidently getting stuck in a blinding sandstorm when I can get a couple of hours to play.  I hate worse having to travel a RL hour so I can quit out so I can grab a couple of hours of RL sleep.

There are some things you must take into consideration before agreeing with one side.

1) Having a subguild that can navigate through sandstorms would create lots of problems. Some players would chose this subguild, in order the cheat the system. Another problem is the abuse of this subguild. Also, some players would chose this subguild only because it can "navigate" through "sandstroms".

2) Having a subguild that could quit everywhere would take out most of the fun in the game. Players could abuse this factor also, mind you. If a player were to have become a target for a bandit, he'd just simply walk off a few rooms and quit. Or if a player got stuck in a sandstrom, they'd just simply quit until it raises up. I'm not saying that this doesn't already happen with those who play with the ranger guild.

3) read #2

4) read #1

[Yokunama]

**Disclaimer: This is meant to be a constructive post about the sandstorm code. I've tried to make everything in here as IC-free as possible.**

We have a problem.

When I am stuck on one side of the world for 2 RL weeks (excluding the day of reboot) then harshness has overwritten playability.

There are two main people who are effected by this code:
I. Desert Elves. (Non-Ranger)
II. Elementalists. (Independent)

Neither of these groups can reasonably "hire" a ranger to escort them around in a sandstorm that lasts several RL days. Both of the groups are prone to wandering. These classes are literally almost shut down in massive sandstorms. I know this is realistic, but it is very difficult for me to have to stay indoors for several RL days and role play because the storm outside is so vicious.

It's realistic to have massive sandstorms, but I believe they should be much less frequent, especially in the north.

Among other classes that also have problems:
1) Warriors who are also hunters.
2) Independent Merchants.
3) Those who wish to masquerade as a ranger but are actually something else. This is now a given OOC way to tell they aren't rangers, and I've watched it used.

Also, when I am 1 room from a gate, literally one room away, guards are there, and I am blown over 20 rooms off course to that gate when it is plain visible sight by the "look" command, this is also an issue.

I think to truly comprehend the power of this code, you need to play a non-ranger class that spends time in the wilds. A city character, an outdoors ranger, or someone who pilots caravans around only - cannot really get the idea behind this. Save major advocators of a harsher Zalanthas, most people who disagree with the sandstorm code are people who have played in it or a while and really have understood the frusteration involved in hours of being blown off course when you may need to log off or have an extraneous circumstance you must address.

The solution to this shouldn't be that I must play rangers or hire one (especially when it is aforementionedly unrealistic to do so) nor should it be to eliminate the code. Rather, I think making these vicious storms much less frequent would still provide a challenge while simultaneously removing the frusteration for a large amount of people playing in the wilds.

Warriors are not hunters. Yes, they can use their melee skills to take down a few animals here and there, but they are not actual hunters. Also, they are not survivalist in the wilderness. They do not have the knowledge of tracking, finding food, nor know the wilderness like your average ranger would.

Warrior Guild:
http://www.armageddon.org/general/guilds.html#warrior

What in the hell would a merchant possiably do with sandstorm navigation? Independant Merchants can do fairly well without this skills, and I've seen a lot of them do it. They really have no purpose out in the wilderness, unless they were going from town to town, and if they needed something from the wilderness, they should be able to pay someone to do it. Being an independant merchant isn't all about working alone and for yourself.

Merchant Guild:
http://www.armageddon.org/general/guilds.html#merchant

Those people who wish to pretend that they are rangers, but in themselves they are totally not should have those things happen to them. If they want to trick someone into thinking that they know how to navigate through the sandstorms, then they really deserve it. Just because you want to pretend that you are a ranger doesn't give your character the knowledge to roam about in a sandstorm freely. Thats like saying a waiter can pretend to be a scientist, but now they should be able to clone people. Things just do not work like that.

[amoeba]

1) Having a subguild that can navigate through sandstorms would create lots of problems. Some players would chose this subguild, in order the cheat the system. Another problem is the abuse of this subguild.

Define abuse and/or cheating.  Fairly nebulous it seems.

Also, some players would chose this subguild only because it can "navigate" through "sandstroms".

Well..ya. Like players choose archer so they can use a bow, or linguist so they can speak other languages, damn cheaters.

2) Having a subguild that could quit everywhere would take out most of the fun in the game. Players could abuse this factor also, mind you. If a player were to have become a target for a bandit, he'd just simply walk off a few rooms and quit. Or if a player got stuck in a sandstrom, they'd just simply quit until it raises up. I'm not saying that this doesn't already happen with those who play with the ranger guild.

Anything can be abused. Players could quit in the middle of guard duty/latrine duty/barracks cleaning so they wouldn't have to what they wanted and log back in when it was over.  I could come up with a huge list of cheats along this line. Point is there are methods for dealing with this type of thing.  

The way I read it is there are two base issues with the storm code.

1. RL issues. It is the one "common" thing in the game that could cause RL  Issues unexpectedlly.  Having two hours to play, going out a 1/2 hour into to get wood, then being caught by the sudden onset of a sandstorm can create RL problems for someone.  On the short I would think it would be reasonable to wish up and explain why you should be quit out.  (I would like an IMM to weigh in on this).  Long term, have advance notice that a deblitating storm is coming, perhaps have more quit safe points that a traveller could stumble into in the areas commonly used by non-rangers. (I'm a bit iffy about the second option)

2. Playablity issues. This is harder. Having other guilds being able to navigate? Eh, does it really solve a problem? Having everyone able to navigate? No, then why have a storm code at all, why storms?  I do think however there should be some navigatiblity on the roads for all.  In RL you get lost, you find a stream or something, and follow it to something. Here if one at was lucky enough to stumble onto a road, as least they could slowly  make progress.  Of course all the raiders/gith/critters will have noticed all the increased traffic on the roads and will make life miserable for the traveler, but at least then it's playable.

[Zharal]

I personally think that no sub guild should have the ability of a ranger to quit out in the wilds, It is a skill that I belive is very unique to there class.
It is what makes a ranger a ranger.  They are skilled at survival in the harsh conditions of Armageddon they are able to travel slowly through areas that are home to them as well as set up camp for the night or longer periods of time as needed.  I do belive however that certain sub guilds that fit the nature should be able to move through harsh storms but at a very limited rate and not nearly as good as a ranger.  Ofcorse this is just in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

A few points:

1)  Some warriors are hunters.  What is the hunter subguild for anyway?  Maybe they are not superb hunters like rangers, but they should be able to get out there and make some sort of living.

2)  For various reasons, some non-rangers and non-hunters need to live or spend most of their time in the desert.  There is such a thing as a hermit.  I do not think that any subclasses or classes other than rangers should be able to quit anywhere, but I think there should be a few more quit safe rooms scattered around for this reason.

3)  On further reflection, I think that the sandstorm code should remain as it is but be much less harsh.  For example, for a non-ranger, if visibility is 3 leagues when you look in a direction, no possibility of moving randomly.  If visibility is 2 leagues, essentially no possibility of moving randomly.  If visibility is 1 league, small chance of moving in the wrong direction (maybe 1/25).  If visibibility is just your room (~ 1/10).  If you cannot see the room description, very high odds of moving randomly (5/10 or more).  This will keep things realistic, keep people from spam moving all over the world in bad weather, yet still allow for playability.

4)  People who say there is no role for a ranger in the absence of the current storm code are incorrect in my opinion.  Rangers can do many, many things of great usefulness, navigating the desert being only one of them.  Rangers are not tanks like warriors, but warriors clearly have their own limitations.

5)  There are times when real life and playability are important.  I have a demanding job.  I have played arm in spurts for years, and I enjoy it thoroughly.  In my opinion being caught in a sandstorm in the middle of the night (real life) is not fun, and I won't log in if I know I'm going to be stuck in one and I need to go somewhere in-game.  Going link dead is not a reasonable option in a permadeath game.

[Ranger Baby]

I'm still playing my post-sandstorm ranger and haven't experienced any of these problems.

On the subject of playability, I agree that people shouldn't get stuck someplace for hours at a time, but how is that happening?

Are completely blinding, immobilizing sandstorms popping up without notice and staying for hours at a time?  I've never seen that happen - usually you either walk into a bad storm, or it develops over time with plenty of build up and expectation.  If it's going from nice to 0 visibility in one tick, that might be a bug.  If you go out travelling in mild-visibility then get stranded when the storm picks up... well, that's your own stupid fault for trying to beat the sandstorm.

[picklehead]

Enough already. I'm tired of this whining about being caught out in a storm and how it's not playable. Boohoo. You probably don't belong out there in the first place. The deserts have storms. Sometimes they're bad and you get lost. You -know- this is a possibility. Solution? Don't go out there without making adequate preparations. You want to chop wood? Hire a scrub-hopper to keep an eye on the surrounding grove and help you out should a storm come up. You probably wont have to pay them much and they'll get: a) coin earned without having to bust their ass hunting all day and b) a chance to rp out some situations other than hunting. You'll get: a) someone to let you know when that tembo/halfling/raider/puffthemagicdragon starts coming to close and b) someone to guide you back to the city should a storm come up.

People need to start thinking outside the box more when it comes to hiring other people to help them. There's quite a few independents sitting around on any given day, but most of the time nobody ever hires anyone unless it's for something BIG. You don't need a big task to make it worth your while to hire someone. If you've got a small task, it's probably not going to cost you much as it's not likely to be a high-risk or a big expenditure of time. Meanwhile that guy at the bar will probably do it for the same reasons, plus it'll net him some coin and give him something to do other than scratch his ass and swat at bugs.

I think part of the problem is that some people want to be able to cruise across the wastes leading a caravan while fighting off a horde of gith. Or be that travelling merchant who can reap the most extreme profits while navigating the wastes all by himself without hiring anyone to help them. Most anything you want to do you can do with the guild/subguilds, but it just takes some time and effort. You want to be a travelling merchant? Be a ranger/nomad. You want to be a badass warrior who never gets lost in a storm? Well, I guess you're going to have to go ranger then and put in an assload of playing time. But letting hunters/caravanguide/nomad have the ranger ability to navigate the storms just so their warrior badasses can roam around? No thanks. Warrior/hunter combinations are for mercenary/swordsmen types who spend their downtime bringing down some game to feed themselves.

The stormcode's fine, you people just need to hire some assistance or stay indoors where you belong. If you want to play a concept that involves you being in the desert a whole lot, play a ranger, that's what it's there for. There's plenty of subguilds to combine with the ranger class to play whatever concept you have in mind.