Merchants - Agent and other Great House Family

[Anonymous]

Are these semi-noblity?

I'm wondering due to some IC things that have popped up that seem unique to my experience.  I thought merchants were commoners will a lot of coin (Great House merchants, anyway) and are not "better" than other commoners or at least not expected to receive better treatment due to their station alone.

Thoughts?

[Maybe42or54]

One with the last name Kurac, salarr, kadius, are in a family of rich commoners that will be more powerful than most other commoner families.

[Cuusardo]

They are part of the upper eschelon of common people.

[Marauder Moe]

Commoners do not bow to merchants. (In Allanak)

Merchants do bow to nobles. (In Allanak)

Merchants have a lot of money.  This means if you piss them off they can pay a templar/soldier to do something horrible to you.  So, most commers would indeed be respectful to merchant family members.

[wizturbo]

Merchant family members command more respect than normal commoners, and for the particularly famous and wealthy ones who have the backing of their entire Merchant House, a great deal of power and influence.

While a top member of a Merchant House might be socially lower than a common noble, their power and influence is often GREATLY superior.

[Bestatte]

Paraphrasing from the table of social standings (as applies specifically to Allanak since I don't know if one exists for Tuluk):

The HEAD of a merchant house is a social equal to a noble of one of the *lower* noble houses, and to a blue-robe templar of the lowest blue-robe rankings.

A SENIOR member (higher Senior ranking) of a merchant house is a social equal to a bastard noble and a militia commander.

A SENIOR member (lower Senior ranking) of a merchant house is a social equal to a noble house Senior Aide, Concubine, and Guard Captain, and to a Militia Captain.

So basically - these are all pretty important people. They are deserving of some respect, though only the nobles and templars would get the bow, and when a Templar of equal ranking to a merchant head of house that doesn't employ you says "Jump," you don't ask the merchant head of house for permission. You just jump. If you're employed by the merchant head of house, it's a good idea to check with him/her before you ever get into that situation so you know in advance how he/she wants you to handle it.

[Savak]

What people have said thus far is basically correct.  I wouldn't, however, use the term "semi-nobility," because I think using the term "nobility" at ALL is just...wrong.

They -are- generally rich, and their money makes them more powerful than the average commoner, as does their House's trade alliances.  But they are still COMMONERS, and thus remain in a different strata from nobles.

But given their relative money and power, they are among the upper echelon of commoners, and may have purchased the ear of a few soldiers, nobles, or templars (probably in -both- major cities).  The average grubby unaffiliated commoner would generally be well advised to not piss them off too badly.

-Savak

[Xygax]

Merchants are not nobility, and merchant PCs are usually not even close.  I've seen a lot of merchant PCs played with hubris of a noble (or even more hubris than a noble), and the entitlement of a templar, and this is almost always the wrong attitude to take.

If you're a merchant PC, your parents might be rich.  Their parents might be rich.  And you might have a fair bit of coin at your disposal relative to the average commoner, but you're not a noble or a templar.

This  is a good general guideline for comparing the ranks of Allanaki templars/nobility and merchants.  As you can see, merchant family members fall into a category of their own, and so they are different from both nobility and commoners in some sense.  Often, they have more money at their disposal than their noble counterparts; but a low-ranking noble will still likely wield more -political- power than their merchantile counterpart (also low-ranking).

I'd really like to see our merchants drop the foppish attitude (at least to some degree, or in some cases...  obviously there will always be the usual spoiled brats among any wealthy family).  My preference would be to see more of them playing low-key, resourceful and busy individuals doing whatever is needed to advance their position in their House, be it spying, creating low-level individual alliances with their counterparts among other merchant houses, the templarate, and the nobility, and carving out a long-term plan for personal wealth and security.  They are the halflings on the izdari board scrounging and fighting to become assassins.  They may only be one false move away from hawking blades in the middle of a dusty plaza, or being relegated to counting inventory in some musty warehouse, or supervising transport wagons from Tuluk to Allanak and back.

After much advancement, both political and financial, I can see a merchant PC becoming more fancy, and less gritty, but I think most of these roles should start with grit and see where they can go from there.

All that said, if you're finding that a particular PC is acting beyond their station in your presence, that doesn't necessarily indicate poor RP on their part.  They may have more control over the situation than you percieve (regardless of whether they're a merchant PC or some other commoner), and you might be wise to keep a low profile around them.  Merchant PCs have one great advantage over another commoner:  they can grease palms like nobody's business when they need to.  Especially if they're good at their "hand-me-down" job.

-- X

[wizturbo]

Xygax's post should be archived.  It explains the position of a Merchant House PC perfectly in my opinion.

[Ayashah]

I agree that Xygax's post should be archived but not just as a reference to pcs but to the imms that annimate npcs. I am sure it's easy to forget that they too are just commoners with a lot of money when dealing with pc nobles, etc. Most are really good about that and really play the npcs in their clans wonderfully. I have only seen a few cases where a senior npc was rp'd as if they were higher than a high ranked house's jr noble.

It IS easy, when you are the only one dealing with a ton of stuff IC, pc or npc, to forget you are just one cog in the wheel of the House and not the left hand of Tek. Especially on a pc's side of it as they might not ever see any of their House's npcs animated or such and are basically running the clan oocly when icly they arent running it.

[Xygax]

I have only seen a few cases where a senior npc was rp'd as if they were higher than a high ranked house's jr noble.

It's worth clarifying that that is probably correct play.  A senior agent of a merchant house has both more money AND more political power than all but the most aggressive and successful junior nobility.  Senior Agents of the various houses control such large quantities of wares as to be able to shape policy for noble-houses and city-states alike, depending on their position.

A senior agent for Salarr might be able to convince the family to raise the price of all jade-emblazoned weapons by a few coins each; just enough of a tweak to put some Red Robe's bribe-budget into a vice, and each of the other houses' Senior Agents may (if resourceful enough) be able to find similar leverage.  Senior Agents can be exceptionally dangerous individuals, by virtue of the financial resources at their disposal alone, even if you disregard everything mentioned above.

My original post was intended more for the merchant PC in his/her first few weeks or months in the role.  It takes time to build the financial power-base, contact network, and overall infrastructure required of a dangerous, powerful merchant-family agent...  And it can take many IC years of this kind of calculation and plotting to become a senior agent.  Senior Agents have probably done any or all of the following to attain their position:  a) killed or displaced close family members,  b) purchased the assassination of a few political enemies along the way, c) cheated and connived within their own organization to create personal opportunities,  d) bribed (persistently) more than one carefully selected Red Robed templar, or aided them in attaining their position, or both.  People capable of these activities are dangerous people, and have earned the right to a bit of arrogance.  Most new merchant PCs have not.

-- X

[LoD]

One of the things that always seems to be in question is not the presence of a gap between the common folk and nobility, but its size.

I've always been of the opinion that the Great Merchant Houses are extremely wealthy relative to other common folk, but that their wealth and power are miniscule compared to that of even one of the Noble Houses of a city-state.  This is not to say that House Kurac or the other Houses' holdings outside of the city-states are not impressive, they just aren't at a level that compares to what can be found at the top echelon of these civilization centers.

To further clarify, it is my opinion that the lowest of the lowly nobles would still has more wealth and influence available to him than almost any merchant family member anywhere.  There is a knee jerk reaction here to make claims such as, "I've played merchants that have had 1000 times more obsidian in their bank account than the noble I play now!" or "My merchant was 10 times as influential as any noble.", but that view is the result of playability issues with regard to roles of nobility.

Well played nobles, meaning those played most closely to how one would actually interact in this society, would likely be hugely boring.  I highly doubt they'd ever step foot outside of the Noble's Quarter.  They certainly wouldn't be found sitting on a chair in a tavern in plain view of anyone walking along the filthy streets.  These aren't really that fun to play, so what do we get?

We get a breed of super wealthy, insanely powerful people that interact with the populace because of playability issues.  These nobles are likely the lowest of the low "punk kids" of the Noble House structure, or bend the rules because they don't want to solo RP all day.  There aren't enough players to properly flesh out the noble world enough to meet the demands required by a life spent interacting entirely with the upper 1% of the populace.

And so, we have this problem arise where wealthy merchant PC's witness themselves attaining what they feel is a level of wealth and influence on par or equal to that of the noble PC's with which they interact.  Not only that, but they have the luxury of playing in an environment better suited to their class.  Most people play commoners, so merchants have more commoners to sell to, employ, manipulate and interact with while not having any boundaries imposed upon them as to what their station really "should" be doing.

This creates merchants that feel they are on a level comparable to these lesser nobles, if not above it.  And to me, a more true comparison would be to take the most wealthy and prominent Merchant House Family Member and pit him against the lowest of the lowly Noble House Family Members.  In a true comparison without boundaries or rules imposed to actually "allow" for people to play the game and interact with somebody, the most important and powerful family member in Salarr would only barely equate to the lowest noble possible in power, wealth and influence.

Why do noble PC's have such restrictions that disallow them from exerting this immense wealth and power to truly and accurately portray their station in the game?  Because it's a role that is simply too much to entrust to any player.  There must be checks and balances in place that allow for the Imm staff to carefully monitor the play of any of these superpowers.

This has gone a bit longer than intended, but they are some thoughts on why some merchants develop and overinflated ego and a disillusioned view of their place in Zalanthan society.

-LoD

[Xygax]

Actually, I'm not sure I agree with you on this, LoD.  Some noble houses are, as you suggest, very wealthy and powerful, but I still think their overall wealth is pretty much dwarfed by the commerce of a house like Salarr selling weapons to BOTH city-states involved in a relatively long-running, actively simmering border-war (and again, each of the other Great Merchant Houses have comparable resources in some way).  Also, I think a lot of the noble houses may have wealth or position as a result of the efforts of generations before them (or of good luck in those generations' dealings with a sorcerer-king), but over time for many houses, that wealth and power (especially the wealth) have somewhat eroded.

This isn't my position on the matter as staff, and other staff members may have a different perspective, but I'd really like to see everyone start out assuming that their position is a notch or two _lower_ than what seems to be commonly played out; and not a notch higher.  Junior nobles (those played by PCs) aren't in the public eye because of an OOC playability concern (I like to think), but instead because of an IC need for positive publicity, perhaps, or an IC trust issue (it's at least slightly easier to trust family, and so junior family members make good eyes and ears for their seniors, and are well-suited to sensitive tasks with which an employee could never be trusted.), or any of a variety of other plausible reasons for a young or previously-isolated family member to suffer the outside world.

I still would certainly place a junior noble above a junior merchant (perhaps even significantly above) in the social strata, but I think it's also important to avoid overstating their position.

-- X

[LoD]

Perhaps the social order has eroded over time, as you say.

I had always taken the Noble Houses to be at a level of wealth and influence, within the walls of their own city, much higher than any level a PC may attain as a common man.  That is not to say the PC wouldn't be a smarter, more effective and potentially wealthier person on a given day than the lowliest of junior nobles, but that on the average - your senior agent is not going to hold the same clout as a junior noble.

Merchant Houses and Noble Houses are definitely different, because much of the commerce all hinges around very delicate balances.  I agree with you, and perhaps my descriptions were tailored toward roles most commonly played or achieved by a PC.  Unless you've played your role for several IC years, working on long term goals and plans to work your way up the chain of command in a structure as large as one of the Great Merchant Houses, I don't think you should place yourself anywhere close to the level of respect due a noble of the city-state.

[Xygax]

Unless you've played your role for several IC years, working on long term goals and plans to work your way up the chain of command in a structure as large as one of the Great Merchant Houses, I don't think you should place yourself anywhere close to the level of respect due a noble of the city-state.

I agree 100%

-- X

[wizturbo]

*edit* Nevermind, all my points have been brought up.

[Maybe42or54]

And as a side note.

I believe that Noble House's wealth lies mostly in what they own.
Take for example, Borsail.
They have their money invested in clothes, food, employees, wagons, buildings, slaves, and key members of the templerate and merchant houses and possibly other noble personal.

Don't get me wrong, they still probably have a few hundred thousand in Nenyuk's Greedy little hands.

But if they don't get Nenyuk in their hands, then they could run off to Tuluk with it all.

[EvilRoeSlade]

But if they don't get Nenyuk in their hands, then they could run off to Tuluk with it all.

I think that's a misconception.  A Merchant House CANNOT just "run off to Tuluk (or Allanak)" if they get their feathers ruffled by some noble.  Templars have power.  Nobles have power.  Merchants have money, which doesn't always equal power in the non-capitalist societies that are prevalent throughout Zalanthas.

To use your example of House Nenyuk... fully half of their holdings and investments are immobile in either city-state.  Fully half of their family members reside in either city-state.  All of these are at the mercy of the cruel God-Kings.  They must constantly work to stay in the good graces of the nobility and templarate, no matter the cost.

[Maybe42or54]

Thank you for recognizing my bad joke.

[Incognito]

In most probabilities, any noble house in Nak or Tuluk, could easily buy out any of the great merchant houses, at a mere whim. But they do not, because they are of noble blood, and do not deign to do such menial tasks as actually "selling" something to someone!!

[Jacques]

I'm going to disagree, Incognito. I don't believe that most, if any, of the noble houses could buy out any of the merchant houses. Personally, I think the merchant houses are more wealthy than the nobles are, as a general rule. Money is ALL they focus on, so they're going to be very good at it.

However, the noble houses wouldn't have to buy them. They have POWER. Yes, being wealthy can give you some level of power and influence, but the only real power in either city-state comes from the sorceror-king, and by extention through the templarate and nobility. This is why the nobility isn't as wealthy - they don't need to be. The merchant says "I have a thousand large in my personal bank account," and the noble replies "yes, but I say that you'll be in the Arena tomorrow, and the templarate agree with me. Enjoy your meeting with the mekillot, and see if he's interested in your one thousand large."  This scenario does not happen in reverse, and both the nobles and the merchants know it.  :wink:

[lazycritic]

A Merchant House CANNOT just "run off to Tuluk (or Allanak)" if they get their feathers ruffled by some noble. Templars have power. Nobles have power. Merchants have money, which doesn't always equal power in the non-capitalist societies that are prevalent throughout Zalanthas.

They cannot "just", but they can run off to Tuluk. They would have to get extremely riled up, but I'm sure the other opposing city-state would accept them gladly - it would be something of a coup d'etat if House Salarr or especially House Kadius pulled out of Allanak(I doubt Allanak would care a ton if House Kurac "pulled out"). Allanak doesn't have a ton of power up in Tuluk. Some may disagree with me there, and maybe behind the scenes Allanak does. But if Tek's arm does reach deep into Tuluk, it isn't apparent to the average commoner and probably even the senior merchants.

You may notice that for all their vaunted power, the nobility does not state prices to the merchants. The merchants set their own prices. They can set horrendous prices, and the nobles may be pissed off, but they can't openly go "you're gonna be thrown in the arena for that". They'd have to bribe, and even then...throwing a merchant family member into the arena could be  tricky business for a Blue robe, I imagine.

In most probabilities, any noble house in Nak or Tuluk, could easily buy out any of the great merchant houses, at a mere whim.

That sounds pretty ridiculous to me, but only the staff know for sure, heh.

[lazycritic]

This is why the nobility isn't as wealthy - they don't need to be. The merchant says "I have a thousand large in my personal bank account," and the noble replies "yes, but I say that you'll be in the Arena tomorrow, and the templarate agree with me. Enjoy your meeting with the mekillot, and see if he's interested in your one thousand large."

You act as if the nobility was a single entity, which it's not. If one noble in particular were to do that, he would be opening a can of worms that his noble House may not appreciate, and other noble Houses may regard with some amusement. You see...assassins do like a thousand large. So do mercenaries. So do, for that matter, templars. And that merchant had many brothers and sisters who knew him, and don't like what his casual death or embarrassment represents.

[Xygax]

We're getting a little bit off-track in this thread, debating the full power of respective noble/merchant houses.  It will be much more productive to confine yourselves to the wealth/power/position of a PC merchant, or a PC noble, or a PC templar.

-- X

[wizturbo]

We're getting a little bit off-track in this thread, debating the full power of respective noble/merchant houses.  It will be much more productive to confine yourselves to the wealth/power/position of a PC merchant, or a PC noble, or a PC templar.

-- X

With that said, here's my views for each of those.

PC Merchant family member:  They begin as just a privledged commoner.  They have more education, more financial resources, and their family name carries some weight in their favor.  If you were to give a starting out PC Merchant family member a numerical value of overall power, it would likely be a "4" whereas a normal commoner might be a "2".  However, these PC's have the potential to rise in wealth and influence to the point that they can, with time and a great deal of work to literally double their initial "power".


PC Junior Noble:  They begin with the political backing of their family name, and the legal immunity within their city-state.  They are well educated, they can read and write, and they have a stable source of finances that keeps them lacking for nothing.  Their initial "power" if give a numerical one would likely be a "6".  Over time, with political manuvering and an ambitious, aggressive attitude to obtain personal power they've the potential to rival a Templar's power.

PC Templar:  They begin with the backing of their city-state and the ability to wield the militia to their purposes.  They are extremely well educated, often well trained in warfare, and in the case of Allanaki Templars have an arsenal of sorceror-like magicks granted by Tektolnes.  Their word is law to the commoner, their political influence frightening.  A Templar begins at an "8", and they've the potential for unlimited power through promotion.