Mass COmbat Idea

[moab]

Ok, so Armageddon is down and I'm slumming around a bit.
I logged into Medieva to see what all the noise (mostly bad) was about and to look things over.

One thing I noticed (still in newbie school) is that they have a concept of "formation" in which you can specify where your charcter is in a rank of other people whom you are following and typing the command form gives you:

Bob              Joe           Steph
Mark            Cindy        Mathers

And you can change that formation.  The people in the first rank are more likely to take a hit and perhaps the second rank (not quite finished with the lesson) can only attack with longer weapons.

This seems to me to be one enhancement Armageddon could use.

Thoughts?

[Maybe42or54]

I really do love this idea.

Simply because my last few PC's have died to the spam I got.

[Praetorian]

It is a nice idea for concepts of traditional warfare.  If two armies are clashing, then yes.  Unfortunately most of the danger on armageddon come from beasties, and they don't tend to follow the rules.  Most animals will seek out the weakest prey, and often circle around for the sole intent of striking the weaker rear.  Look at lions for example - they move in toward the rear of a pack of gazelle, and THEN strike, once they lock in on the weakest animal at the rear of the pack they swoop in and take it down.  I view many of armageddon's creatures behaving in this way, like tembo, mantis, jakhals, gortok, etc etc.  Formations only hold value when you know where your enemy is, and are able to predict their behavior.
There is a handy skill in game called 'guard'.  If you want to be visualized as at the rear of a formation, then travel with someone that can maintain the formationary situation - ie, someone that can guard you.

- Praetorian (who just NOW realized there was a time-change today)

[Hexxaex]

I have about 237 hours of Medievia playing time myself, so I'm probably the expert on it (no I don't play it anymore, but I still remember).

Generally, the people with the most hit points would be at the front, taking hits and doing damage, the people in the middle would be taking a little bit of damage, and mostly casting spells or, if they had a weapon that had the "LONG" flag, they could attack too.  People in the back would be the healers, doing hardly anything, or making use of Medievia's extremely sucky ranged weapons code.

Now, because magickers are few and far between, this still could be a possibility.  The leader would reform everyone so the people with the most experience in fighting, or the fastest people would be up front, people with halberds, longswords or spears would probably be in the middle, they could also throw things.  People in the back would be too far from the melee, so would probably use a ranged weapon (slings, bows, crossbows, etc).

One thing the code should implement is accidentaly hitting your own man, only if you don't have a lot of experience with arrows.  It's also possible to slash or pierce one of your own if you're in the middle, again, based on experience with a particular weapon.

Edit:  One other thing, people could easily lose their spot if they don't have experience in marching in a formation.  That could be a skill only warriors/rangers (ranger is even a bit iffy) have, and others could learn (probably easy to learn.)

[Rhyden]

I like it. This would be extremely beneficial to larger battles and could make combat more organized and strategic.

Thumbs up.

[Tamarin]

I agree that a mass combat code is needed, and this is a good start, but if we were to have one, it would have to be a lot more creative.

[Forest Junkie]

I like this idea. Only for mass combat against human soldiers though. Critters, as someone stated above, would likely bypass any such formation.

[Maybe42or54]

Then they wouldn't form up. Still, humans and other intelligant wannabes could still form up.

Why does it have to be creative?

[Anael]

... yes. Smaller ones would dash around and bahamets/mekillots would... hm... you get the idea.  

I like the idea, but I've also seen people do something like 'formations' with the Guard skill.

[minor derail]
Is there any chance of guarding against ranged weapons (bows, throws) - even slightest, because it should definitely be harder than straight attacks. Or should I find ICly? =p

[Delirium]

It's possible to defend against them. I don't believe it's possible to guard another character against them, and I wish it was.

The die-hard bodyguard leaps in front of the startled noble, taking a knife to the chest!

[Hexxaex]

A problem I can see with the formation idea is the people in the middle would ,realistically, have a hard time hitting, because they would have to have a very long weapon, and that would be weak and inaccurate.  What might have to happen, is that the middle AND back rows would -have- to use ranged weapons.  Thoughts?

[Forest Junkie]

A problem I can see with the formation idea is the people in the middle would ,realistically, have a hard time hitting, because they would have to have a very long weapon, and that would be weak and inaccurate.  What might have to happen, is that the middle AND back rows would -have- to use ranged weapons.  Thoughts?

Such a formation could work in three rows, in a somewhat rudimentary fashion copied from the Romans and their style.

1st row: Shieldbearers and heavy cavalry
2nd row: Long-range weapons, such as polearms and spears. (These people would use the spears to keep others at bay from the shieldbearers, and provide a solid barrier against a charge)
3rd row: Archers and crossbowmen

The basic premise overall has alot of potential.

[Maybe42or54]

Or spartan.

1st row- shield and short sword.
2nd row- Pushes the first row.
3rd row- Archers and spear throwers.

[Forest Junkie]

Or spartan.

1st row- shield and short sword.
2nd row- Pushes the first row.
3rd row- Archers and spear throwers.

How would that be coded? What factors determine how fast they force the first row forward? Their numbers? Their experience?

[EvilRoeSlade]

Right now, mass combat really sucks and can be summed up in three words:  DEATH BY SPAM.

I'd welcome anything that even promises to change this.

[Delirium]

Sounds great in theory, but in practice there are many problems with this sort of thing. One is that it's rare you have a "full" unit of PCs at your disposal, and two is that it's rare you have PCs that use all the appropriate weapons with enough skill to hurt a jozhal. :)

I would prefer to see a command that showed only the combat going on in the room, before we saw anything like a formation command. All this would do is let you see exactly who is being attacked by who. Naturally you should be paying attention to the combat echos in the first place, but it can be easy to lose information in the rapid scroll of mass combat.

>combat

You are here, fighting a chubby, polka-dotted gith.
The skinny elf is here, attacking a chubby, polka-dotted gith.
The hulking mul is here, fighting a chubby, polka-dotted gith.
The helpless merchant is here, attacking a fearsome, fanged gith.
A chubby, polka-dotted gith is here, attacking the skinny elf.
A fearsome, fanged gith is here, attacking the helpless merchant.

>rescue merchant

Note that 'attacking' means that person is directly engaged, and 'fighting' means that person is assisting in the battle, i.e. can disengage if they want to.

As things are now, they are playable, though it takes paying attention, fast reading and lots of practice to be able to stay on top of mass combat. Small improvements could make it easier for those with slightly less speedy reading skills to keep up.

[moab]

Big D, that's a cool idea as well.  I like it.  Thumbs up.
Turning on brief before going into combat is a good idea.  Having that mingled in with some type of specialized combat view (via combat command) would be interesting.

As for critters getting around formations - intelligent creatures could still form up and gain a benefit from a shield wall and spears against a charging Mek.

There would also be interesting ideas for "flanking" manuvers based on speed of the flanker.  This could possibly make mounted combat more useful, having a better chance to flank a fomation.

Fast creatures might also try to flank, but I see no reason why they wouldn't just attack whatever part of the formation they were presented with (the 1st rank) as that is the point of having a formation to begin with.

[proxie]

The thing is... any guard worth their sid will look at the combat spam and automatically type assist merchant and then start trying to rescue.

It'd be kindof neat if some preditors would automatically go for the non-combat person... like if there's three guys in sandcloth, one in silk and linen, and another in heavy armor... the gortok attacks the silk and linen person because through generation after generation... he's learned that the yummiest treats come in the pretty, soft packages.

Combat isn't a thing where you can take a moment and go hmmm... who rationally needs me right now. It's Krath! Assist merchant! Assist newbierecruit! Rescue! Get'm out of the line of attack. Come on come on, my screen just flashed, boy do I hope that was the thing attacking us. I'm not fighting anyone? Assist next weakest person! Go go go!

Proxie

[Delirium]

Oh, I agree, mass combat is a fast-paced and adrenaline pumping experience (especially until you're used to it, I used to get the shakes whenever I came under fire or was being attacked by critter hordes).

I'm not arguing that it's the way things are NOW.

But I think that making small improvements to the code could help those situations become a little more cool-headed for the player, though no less dangerous and frantic for the character.

This becomes more important when the NPCs are being animated or controlled by Immortals. I love it when it happens, because it means that you have to think quick and react even quicker, but it's quite a shift if you're expecting the NPCs to react "predictably". This is especially diabolical when you are countering ingelligent and cunning enemies, such as gith or halfling.

In those situations, it is rarely as simple as assisting and rescuing the weakest members of the group, and then waiting for the dust to settle. More hostiles could come in from another direction, or the hostile could change opponent, or you could come under fire, the list goes on, and you find yourself challenged to stay atop things and figure out who is fighting who, who can disengage and who is locked in direct battle, etc, etc, ad nauseam.

[Agent_137 (2L2L)]

The combat code, esp. mass combat code is weak.

The crim code is weak.

So combat characters and sneaky characters are at significant coded disadvantages.

Which makes this game very suited toward politickers.

Which is what you see. Lots of politickers.

This is a problem. Dying to spam is a problem.

HAVING to go through the OOC pain in the ass of deciphering a screen of spam just to keep the noob that ICly you are standing next to from getting whacked is a pain in the ass. It's also a pain in the ass to have to decipher all that spam just so you can OOCly know that your char's command who's standing right next to him is frozen from an enemy spell.

there are a lot of good combat code suggestions on this thread. There are more scattered throughout this board. I haven't seen any combat updates in the last six months other than the arrows shooting in and out thing. I grow disheartened.

I'm not saying that the Imms aren't doing a lot of work, but I am saying that they are focusing on things that aren't what I would place as priority.

(Of course, everyone has different ideas of priority, and the Imms work for free, and i appreciate the work they do.)

I see lots of spell work. Which is mostly halaster. Maybe he can be shifted to combat code next? He's a workaholic. I also see lots of minor updates and fixes (auto-save in 'nak) which is great. Do the little things. I see some work in the background which makes it easier for Imms to work. Which is also great.

But it seems to be everyone is avoiding the big scary projects because 1. they're big and scary and 2. they work kinda good enough already.

I think it's a shame. New code things are nice. But what i really want is frustration taken OUT of the code, OUT of play. Take the frustration out, and put in the new descriptions, items, echoes, and spells later.

Sounds great in theory, but in practice there are many problems with this sort of thing. One is that it's rare you have a "full" unit of PCs at your disposal, and two is that it's rare you have PCs that use all the appropriate weapons with enough skill to hurt a jozhal.

Rare is relative. Sure, it doesn't happen all the time, but it's certainly not rare. And the worst part is, when the BIG THINGS do go down, they're always REALLY IMPORTANT, and they always involve LOTS OF PCs. You think that all this would imply that the code would support such. But it doesn't. It needs to.

I'm still bitter over losing a character to not realizing i was disarmed, that, and having two NPC HGs wailing on my guy. It felt like Dues Ex Machina in a real bad way.

Oh, that's my other issue with the code. I haven't seen a "surrounded" limit for attackers. There needs to be a point where no one can physically attack you because you are surrounded by PEOPLE.

Hurrumph.

[Xygax]

The combat code, esp. mass combat code is weak.

The crim code is weak.

Though some of these systems are years-old, they still outpace counterpart systems on nearly every other free text MUD I've seen.  Yeah, they need work and could be improved, but weak?  I strongly disagree with you.

Which makes this game very suited toward politickers.

Which is what you see. Lots of politickers.

This is a problem.

I don't personally think we have an excess of politicing or that the current level of politicing is problematic in any way.  I also don't think that the game is (in its current incarnation) incapable of catering to players who desire less politicing, more fighting, more blood and brutality, etc.

Dying to spam is a problem.

HAVING to go through the OOC pain in the ass of deciphering a screen of spam just to keep the noob that ICly you are standing next to from getting whacked is a pain in the ass. It's also a pain in the ass to have to decipher all that spam just so you can OOCly know that your char's command who's standing right next to him is frozen from an enemy spell.

there are a lot of good combat code suggestions on this thread. There are more scattered throughout this board. I haven't seen any combat updates in the last six months other than the arrows shooting in and out thing. I grow disheartened.

A lot of thing issues you're having here could be solved by tweaking your MUD client to do highlights, gags, etc.  Again, the combat systems could be improved, but it's much easier for you to decide how YOU want combat to look and make your client do it, than for us to implement combat systems that give -everyone- warm-fuzzies.

I'm not saying that the Imms aren't doing a lot of work, but I am saying that they are focusing on things that aren't what I would place as priority.

(Of course, everyone has different ideas of priority, and the Imms work for free, and i appreciate the work they do.)

I understand that this can seem frustrating for players, but my feeling is that if we tried to mandate directions for the staff (even for ourselves) with respect to what issues they should tackle next, we'd get a lot less work done overall.  People contribute time on things that are fun for them, and that's just fine.

I see lots of spell work. Which is mostly halaster. Maybe he can be shifted to combat code next? He's a workaholic. I also see lots of minor updates and fixes (auto-save in 'nak) which is great. Do the little things. I see some work in the background which makes it easier for Imms to work. Which is also great.

But it seems to be everyone is avoiding the big scary projects because 1. they're big and scary and 2. they work kinda good enough already.

Yeah, that's about right, I guess.  Trying to tackle a "big and scary" project like this while maintaining a stable, playable game is incredibly difficult, something on the order of trying to rebuild a suspension bridge while people are still driving over it.

I think it's a shame. New code things are nice. But what i really want is frustration taken OUT of the code, OUT of play. Take the frustration out, and put in the new descriptions, items, echoes, and spells later.

Yes, it's a shame that we don't have a professionally developed code-base and a team of engineers crawling all over it 24/7 fixing bugs.  It's an attrocity, really.  I'm ashamed.  As I addressed in a previous post (in response to another post of YOURS made in a similar tone and with a similar attitude of entitlement), new descriptions, items, echoes, etc. are added to the game by Storytellers, and do not require the assistance or time of an engine coder.  Hal's work on the spell systems may not be of any particular interest to you, but they -do- add to the game, and its his preference to work on them, just as my preferences tend toward tools, stability and refactoring for maintainability.

Rare is relative. Sure, it doesn't happen all the time, but it's certainly not rare. And the worst part is, when the BIG THINGS do go down, they're always REALLY IMPORTANT, and they always involve LOTS OF PCs. You think that all this would imply that the code would support such. But it doesn't. It needs to.

It doesn't really -need- to have anything more than what it has, since people have been tolerating (perhaps even enjoying??  *gasp*) our "weak" combat system for something like 12 years, now.

I'm still bitter over losing a character to not realizing i was disarmed, that, and having two NPC HGs wailing on my guy. It felt like Dues Ex Machina in a real bad way.

Oh, that's my other issue with the code. I haven't seen a "surrounded" limit for attackers. There needs to be a point where no one can physically attack you because you are surrounded by PEOPLE.

Perhaps you should avoid posting from this position of bitterness.  It doesn't incline me to leap right into the code and start looking at implementing your suggestions.

-- X

ps -  Some IC advice for you:  never piss off half-giants.  And never.  Ever.  Piss off two half-giants at the same time.  Ever.

[I]

This is a problem. Dying to spam is a problem.

Tell me about it, I was once in like a twenty on ten attack, and damnit! I couldn't tell what was happening, then all of a sudden, a bunch of text popped up and then I was dead!

[Maybe42or54]

After a while of looking at combat in masses, I can explain it to you like this.

You know in the matrix movies how Neo started to watch the screen and all he saw were the green lines, but after a while, he in fact was able to see past those?

That is where I am. After you get used to it, it moves pretty slowly.

[mansa]

I think there should be a new skill for noble warrior type people, and maxxed out warriors, called, 'MASS FLEE' or 'WARCRY' where you can get everyone following you to 'flee' in some direction.  That might help out on some mass stuff.

[jmordetsky]

I think there should be a new skill for noble warrior type people, and maxxed out warriors, called, 'MASS FLEE' or 'WARCRY' where you can get everyone following you to 'flee' in some direction.  That might help out on some mass stuff.

That might be cool. Where everyone following you executes a flee or kill command on your call.  (successfully or not)