Allow Hunter Subguild the Ability to Navigate in a Sandstorm

[Pantoufle]

As a means of backing up drunkendwarf's Storm Code post, I'd like to offer this fun little poll.  I don't dislike the sandstorm code as much as I dislike the fact that only one guild (out of, what, a dozen?) has access to the ability to navigate through storms.  This argument that states: "Nyah, nyah, if you aren't the type to be traveling in the wildeness then maybe you shouldn't go" would have more clout if rangers weren't the only people who could do this.  If rangers and (some) non-rangers alike can successfully skin an animal or read tracks, then I see no reason why rangers and (some) non-rangers alike, depandant upon subguild/starting location/race/etc., can't successfully navigate through a sandstorm either.  Besides, guild_ranger has plenty going for it with or without this skill.  They're also the only guild who can navigate in complete darkness without losing their berrings, the only guild who can forage for roots, the only guild who can become Robin Hood-proficient marksmen with a bow, the only guild who can quit in the wilderness, the only guild who can ... and so on.  Trust me, boys and girls, you won't be diminishing the abilities of guild_ranger if the skill of moving through sandstorms were granted to a few, other, non-rangers.

[Pantoufle]

Oh, and please, if you've actually voted 'No' in my poll, I kindly ask that you leave an explanation.  Thanks!

[Spoon]

Not sure about this myself, but perhaps Caravan Guide and Nomad subclasses should be included too.

I still think the Ranger guild should have an advantage over others in this area, but as Pantoufle says, it wouldn't really take the edge off the class if others can navigate through storms as well.

Perhaps if another seperate advantage was given to Rangers, like RunningMountain's idea about forseeing storms in the other thread, or if appropriate subguilds could navigate through storms with a 80% success rate or something...

[Zharal]

Sorry I have to say absolutly not.  Thats one of the things that make a ranger special in its own way.

[Anael]

One thing I dislike on how this currently works is that  if you want to make an outdoorsy person, you have to stick with the ranger "archetype" and cannot make a more fleshed out character. Perhaps a subclass would be a way to solve this, but on the other hand the hunter subclass is already pretty powerful (and popular) as it is.

[flurry]

I voted "no" because I think it's too powerful of an ability to give to a subguild.  

Incidentally, I wouldn't mind so much if a subguild give a modest improvement to the ability to navigate storms.  Making it a sure thing is too much.  Maybe 100% is even too much for rangers, but that's another issue.

[Gaare]

I voted "no" because I think it's too powerful of an ability to give to a subguild.  

Ditto.


Also I do not want to see a lots of merchant/hunter, assasin/hunter, etc..

What is wrong with playing a ranger if you really want to hang around alone and freely in the storm anyway?

[proxie]

I voted yes, but only because there wasn't a middle answer.

Yes, hunters (caravan guides and nomads possibly too) could have a REDUCED ability to find their way in a storm. Because to them, as a subguild, it's not their primary area of 'study.' They wouldn't be nearly as good as a ranger, I'd think not even 25% as good as a ranger. And maybe the nomads/caravan guides could have a different percentage.

OR... rangers start high automatically... what if appropriate subs could gain wilderness navigation... which means your newbie assassin/hunter out of character creation would get nastily lost and then would, after years of work and bumbling, get better eventually to the point where in a pinch you could trust them to get you to the nearest center of civilization without too much trouble.

Also, keep rangers as the only ones who can keep their group together. You're following a something/hunter, you still risk getting blinded and losing your bearings because that something/hunter's attention is pretty much purely on keeping his feet going in a reasonably straight line. Not much left to keep the rest of the party with him.

Just my two 'sid.
Can't wait to play a ranger personally... I haven't since the new changes.

Proxie

[Cavus]

I happy because I love this game, and I am ok with the current features of the game, and it is enough to make me happy.

But, our playerbase and sometimes Imms are too conservative. "This is the game. Play or get out!". This mentality is wrong. I'd like to add something to a game that I spend hours a day. But, no new ideas are accepted in this MUD. What a pity....

There are only a few cliche responses to new idea:

1-It is not worth to struggle with code to support the change.

2-Arm is harsh, it is like real life.

3-If you don't like, don't play/use that.

4-Again Arm is harsh,

5-Arm is harsh

....
....

I am reading this forum more than a year, and I did not see any accepted idea by Imms and/or playerbase(old ones). Don't you think there is something wrong?

We give life to Arm, we make this MUD Arm. I think our participation to development of Arm should be taken more seriously.


Note: It is not reply to topic, but I am tired of being seen as worthless, mindless freak who cannot tell a word which is worth to listen.

[Ghost]

I voted no, because subguilds are like a hobby kind for the chars, not so major.

Though if it is possible, it could be implemented as hunter/caravan guide/nomads could have a better chance of finding their way.  Not a full proof, that I would agree.  Actually, Xygax himself posted he is planning of implementing it that way after he made this code change.

[wizturbo]

I do not think ANY subguild should receive this ability.  There are some magicker guilds that should be able to through spells, beyond that I think this should be exclusively ranger.

I do see a problem however with how the weather code is generated.  The creation of 3-4 RL day long blinding storms hinders gameplay, and is not realistic in anyway.  If the code was tweaked so that once a storm reaches blinding strength it begins to decay back towards 'visible' level again, a lot of playability issues would be solved.  This is what I mean in a more mathematical way:

:arrow: Sandstorm level's 1-4 is considered "non-blinding"
:arrow: Sandstorm level 5+ is blinding.

The normal storm code is used, until a storm in a particular region reaches level 5.  Once it reaches level 5 the probability scores are shifted so that it is much more likely for the storm to drop from Level 5 to Level 4, then grow to level 6.  

By setting the code to do that, non-ranger guilds will be inconvenienced in a realistic fashion, but they can still wait around for a gap in the storm before riding out.


And Cavus:  Your wrong.  Player ideas are accepted ALL THE TIME.  Have you read the weekly reports?  All those names with numbers next to them are player contributions implemented.  Be it items designed, bugs found, or new additions to the way the code works.  You don't see the ideas accepted because the GDB has never been a development forum.  Game development is the province of the immortals, and while they all read and hear our feedback the discussion and the decision lies completely in their hands.

[Tamarin]

I don't think hunters should get it, but I DO think nomads should.  They are nomads for crying out loud.  They spend their lives wandering around.  I think they'd know how to deal with storms.

[wizturbo]

I don't think hunters should get it, but I DO think nomads should.  They are nomads for crying out loud.  They spend their lives wandering around.  I think they'd know how to deal with storms.

The problem is you can say this for many other guilds/races.  Caravan guide.  Hunter.  D-elf.  Merchants.  And I'm sure half the magicker population could dream up a reason, and perhaps with good merit.

I see this as the major difference between rangers and warriors.  Warriors can become combat GODS, and having the ability to navigate unaided in a storm because of subguild, in my opinion, would be imbalanced.

[Cavus]

I don't think hunters should get it, but I DO think nomads should.  They are nomads for crying out loud.  They spend their lives wandering around.  I think they'd know how to deal with storms.

The problem is you can say this for many other guilds/races.  Caravan guide.  Hunter.  D-elf.  Merchants.  And I'm sure half the magicker population could dream up a reason, and perhaps with good merit.

I see this as the major difference between rangers and warriors.  Warriors can become combat GODS, and having the ability to navigate unaided in a storm because of subguild, in my opinion, would be imbalanced.

After branching "parry" rangers are similar to warriors at combat. And with additional advantages of rangers, rangers are overpowered compared to warriors. If there is imbalance here, it is current for rangers....

[Tamarin]

Yep, you're right.  There are many races/classes that could be said to have some aptitude at desert travel.  I won't debate that because it's a reality.

As for balance...fuck balance.  I hate balance.  I'm glad that things are unbalanced.  Rangers are sickly powerful, but they are also extremely difficult to play in the early stages.

[Savak]

I'm not sure why it always seems so difficult to keep ideas in a single thread.  One of the quirks of our little community I suppose.

At any rate, as I alluded to in one of the other threads on this topic, code can be a problem here.  It's relatively simple to code "if dude is a ranger, OK, else CHANCE OF GETTING LOST."  But it's relatively complicated to convert that to a skill, with intertwined checks against race, guild, and constipation status, versus the range of weather states (as opposed to just above or below one weather state).  That doesn't make it a bad idea, or one which will never happen -- but it does make it less likely, particularly in the short term.

As far as "weather" itself goes, that's a whole other ball of wezer-wax.  The weather code is a dizzying beast, and while it's function and manipulability are perhaps less than ideal, I haven't met anyone willing to really try to tackle it.  But continuing to pose options on how it could better work is still welcome.

-Savak

[Bardex]

Having witnessed plotlines come to a grinding halt for 5 out of every 7 RL days, for 2 weeks in a row, I'd like to address this (again).

1) Stop letting new players log their first characters in Red Storm. I don't care how stellar a roleplayer they are - if they've never experienced Armageddon before, they just flat out don't belong down there on their first day playing. If it was up to me, I'd make it a karma location, so you'd have to have at least 1 karma for the "privilege" of rolling up a Red Storm character.

2) I love wizturbo's idea of storm intervals. Allow a window between RL hours where people have a shot at getting through. If they're being chased by a mek at the wrong time, sucks to be them. But if they're wandering along peacefully and are just trying to get from point A to point B, there's no reason why their *player* should have to endure sittting there for 4 RL hours (or days!) until the storm lets up or the game resets. Remember also that in the dark, no one can Way you. So saying "way a friend and have them meet you" doesn't help if you can't be found via the Way.

3) I feel that certain areas (such as Red Storm and another that is IC so I won't mention it) need to have interval shifts. They are basically wind tunnels, and ALL wind tunnels are subject to barometric pressure building up at one end and causing the wind to bounce from side to side for a duration of time before it smooths out again. So when it's "blinding" from the west for an hour, let it suddenly calm while the blinding storm moves 3-5 or even as much as 10 rooms to the east. Then after 20 minutes of that, have it shift back again.

In this way, having a ranger along will STILL be the preferred method of travel, but it won't make everyone be FORCED to rely on them 24/7, which is unrealistic -and- unplayable in many instances.

For those who say "play a ranger if you don't like it" I have. I LOVE playing a ranger. I love having people rely on me to lead the way. And I *still* feel that rangers aren't the only ones who should be capable of surviving out in the middle of the desert, on a world FILLED with desert.

[drunkendwarf]

Voted yes. (obviously).
help subguild caravan guide

Caravan guides are skilled in desert travel....

I have no idea why everyone thinks only rangers should get this ability. My question is simply this: What if I don't want to play a ranger, but I still want to poke around in the wilds?
The answer I currently get is: Then bring a ranger, or make a ranger, or don't go.

Wee, sounds like fun. What if I want to play a wandering Rukkian? A nomadic Vivaduan? In my opnion, the magicker classes have been hit the hardest by this. Any other character concept and all right, sure...maybe you'd just have to make a ranger and deal with the set of skills they get if you want to wander the wilds. Flesh it out with a subguild. Magickers just don't get that choice...you can't pick a ranger, and still be a Rukkian.  I think it needs to be opened up to a subguild, or people need to be allowed to quit out or deal with the storm in some other way.

I thought the idea of having a subguild with this ability unable to lead others through a storm was fantastic, BTW. That way rangers still get their precious 'guide' ability...as if they needed something else. It just would allow solo outdoorsy types to deal with a storm. If not give a subguild the ability to navigate, then give them the ability to quit out. Again..that doesn't help a group, just themselves. And again, rangers don't loose their precious guide ability....as if they needed something else to make them powerful

I wouldn't care if there was a new subguild created that gave the ability to navigate through storms, and nothing else. I'd still pick it, on a regular basis. And I'd have to blow my entire subguild to get a ranger's guide ability. I wouldn't care if, with this subguild, that ability didn't extend to lead other people thru a storm.  I'd still pick it. On a regular basis. Anything to get me back out into the wilds where I've come to realize I belong, without having to pick a ranger to do it. I love the wilds. I love rangers. I'd hate playing one over and over and over and over and over again.

Also I do not want to see a lots of merchant/hunter, assasin/hunter, etc..

Allright, instead you're just going to see a lot of rangers. Which has more variety?

After branching "parry" rangers are similar to warriors at combat. And with additional advantages of rangers, rangers are overpowered compared to warriors. If there is imbalance here, it is current for rangers....

After having a few 20+ and 30+ day rangers..I'd agree entirely. Especially now, with the new storm code.  I thought having rangers be the only class that can forage for food and water gave them a distinct advantage. I thought having rangers be the only class that can quit out anywhere they damn well please gave them a distinct advantage. I thought having rangers be the only class that can tame mounts gave them a distinct advantage. I thought having rangers be the only class (that I've ever noticed) to get a high enough ride they can use something in both hands while mounted gave them a distinct advantage. I thought the staggering array of skills a 30+ day ranger has at their disposal gave them a distinct advantage.
Did they really need any more distinct advantages? Why was it suddenly decided rangers are worthless?

[Delirium]

Any warrior worth his salt can destroy a ranger's ass at melee combat no matter HOW good that ranger is, and I'm not going to go into further details on that, use your smarts.

Skilled rangers are the kings and queens of the desert, AS THEY SHOULD BE.

In the city they take a huge hit to their real effectiveness, AS IT SHOULD BE.

Skilled warriors are the unrivaled kings and queens of melee-- and to some extent ranged-- combat, AS THEY SHOULD BE.

In the desert they take a huge hit to their real effectiveness, AS IT SHOULD BE.

All this complaining I see stems from one simple fact; people want to make city-based characters, with city-based strengths, and rule the desert with them. They want to be able to do everything for themselves, go out and kill critters and gather plants all by themselves, without needing anyone or anybody else. Now they can't without significant risk to their person, and we have this outcry of 'not fair!'

When desert elves took a hit to their stamina, the outcry was huge. But now that we've had time to adjust, does anyone still think desert elves are underpowered? I would offer a 'hell no', personally.

The only argument with real basis I can see for this is for the plight of certain classes of magickers. To this I say; how do you know that they don't already have the ability to navigate storms? (I don't, either.) If it turns out they don't, then I doubt the Imms are going to refuse to consider that idea and go HA HA HA TOUGH SHIT N00B! Submit a well thought out idea for the spell, some possible echos, possible power word combinations, and maybe you'll see it go in.

[drunkendwarf]

All this complaining I see stems from one simple fact; people want to make city-based characters, with city-based strengths, and rule the desert with them.

Actually, my main complaint is there is exactly one class that isn't 'city-based' now. One class...on a desert planet. If we're going for realism here....we just missed it by a mile.

[Delirium]

So instead of complaining about it, offer solutions.

A large undertaking, but perhaps a beneficial one, could be some new classes to add to the roster of the ones we already have. There is a city-based merchant class; perhaps we could add a new class - dune trader.

Off the top of my head, that is the only viable addition I can think of, but I'm sure there are more.

[drunkendwarf]

So instead of complaining about it, offer solutions.

I have...I believe I'm up to suggestion #8 on the thread I started about this.
Please go read them.

[Delirium]

Tone down the duration of storms.

I have no problem with this, and Twilight's post here illustrates an idea I've liked for some time. However, as Savak pointed out in one of these threads, the weather code is a dizzying beast, and our Immortals are only human, with lives and interests of their own. If someone has the time, inclination, and ability to tackle this project; great. If not, I don't blame them, and I feel that things are very playable as is.

2) Make roads navigable, regardless of the severity of a storm.

I like this as well, provided it isn't fail-proof. A storm so bad you can't see the room you're in (codewise) is very rare unless you are in certain sandy locations, but it should cause you to lose your way even on a road.

3) Perhaps lean the % of a random exit towards the actual direction you're trying to go.

I don't see the necessity of this at all. When you are out there in a blinding storm, you are not moving in neat little squares. You are on a vast tract of wilderness, surrounded on all sides by whipping gusts of sand-laden wind that gets in your eyes, your nose, your mouth, everywhere that isn't covered by layers of cloth. Making out any landmarks to orient yourself is nearly impossible.

As an experiment, go stand in the middle of your living room. Close your eyes and spin around a bunch of times. Then walk the way you think the door is. That's about as well as most people would be able to orient themselves in a sandstorm.

In fact, if the immortals wanted to be truly diabolical, they could remove the indicator that you were going the wrong way. Then you could never really be sure.. not unless you were paying attention to the landmarks you passed close enough to see, and know the area you are in well enough to re-orient yourself and try to go the way you intended.

[4) Maybe some weather echoes to let you know a storm is coming?

I like it, but see my comment on the apparent complexity of the weather code above.

[Gaare]

All this complaining I see stems from one simple fact; people want to make city-based characters, with city-based strengths, and rule the desert with them.

Actually, my main complaint is there is exactly one class that isn't 'city-based' now. One class...on a desert planet. If we're going for realism here....we just missed it by a mile.

Eh? This is after all a game, and there should be a limit in classes. There are 6 0-Karma classes in ARM. (Other races and classes are rare when you look at the Zalanthas population)

-warrior
-ranger
-pickpocket --- absolutely city
-assasin      --- city
-burglar      --- absolutely city
-merchant   --- absolutely city

So.. Which other class should have that power of roaming in desert freely?

Let me tell you what I understand those threads recently (I maybe mistaken but those posts sound like that), you wish to run an uber fighter and want to navigate freely in storm and hang around alone... Some improvements in storm code would be really nice, but giving the same ability of ranger to other guilds or subguilds is simply sounds to me too much.

[Gaare]

Also I do not want to see a lots of merchant/hunter, assasin/hunter, etc..

Allright, instead you're just going to see a lot of rangers. Which has more variety?

- I never had intention or wish of seeing every player has different class lists, I like seeing different PCs with different and speacial characteristics and personalities.

- Not half of PCs are roaming alone in the wilderness, many of them are in the cities, as it should be (since PC population is a sample of overall Zalanthas).