Allow Hunter Subguild the Ability to Navigate in a Sandstorm

[Delirium]

I might also mention that though Zalanthas is a desert environment, most of the population is centered in the cities. As such, it makes sense for many of the classes to be city-based.

I do like the thought of a dune trader class - the desert version of a merchant. Instead of cavlish, they speak bendune and allundean, and the starting skills would better reflect the skills of someone that lives in the sandy wastes. It would be a more viable option for desert elves to take who wish to be merchants, as well, instead of having to choose the "city" merchant class.

[Maybe42or54]

I believe that The Hunter subguild should be able to forage for food AND navigate through the wilderness.

I read somewhere that in Armageddon, any pc could become anything not related to their guild. Now, with the storms, only ranger's can be real guides, noone is going to hire the other ones that can't navigate through the winds.

I also believe that the Subguild scavenger should be able to forage for food.


New skills have come into the game, I just think that the subguilds should be rechecked and updated as they see fit.

[Rhyden]

But, our playerbase and sometimes Imms are too conservative. "This is the game. Play or get out!". This mentality is wrong. I'd like to add something to a game that I spend hours a day. But, no new ideas are accepted in this MUD. What a pity....

I am reading this forum more than a year, and I did not see any accepted idea by Imms and/or playerbase(old ones). Don't you think there is something wrong?

We give life to Arm, we make this MUD Arm. I think our participation to development of Arm should be taken more seriously.

Note: It is not reply to topic, but I am tired of being seen as worthless, mindless freak who cannot tell a word which is worth to listen.

The staff made this world through what I can imagine as many, many hours of work deciding the environments, their imaginative minds concucting the atmosphere, the races, cities, areas, code.

I say it is the staff's decision whether they want to change their world or not, not players'.

I see it much like most governments. Politicians make the laws, the laws are followed. If a person wants a law changed, there is a very picky process where a law will usually be rejected 10 out of 10 times.

[jmordetsky]

All for it. Don't understand the arguments against.

[Yokunama]

All this complaining I see stems from one simple fact; people want to make city-based characters, with city-based strengths, and rule the desert with them. They want to be able to do everything for themselves, go out and kill critters and gather plants all by themselves, without needing anyone or anybody else. Now they can't without significant risk to their person, and we have this outcry of 'not fair!'

I agree, Delirium.

Any hunter can pick up a spear and and hunt down a meal or two, but that does not make them adept beings of the wilderness. This is what make rangers and hunters different.

Rangers know their way around the wilderness. It feels more like home to them than any other guild or subguild. They can say, "Hmm... I'm feeling a bit hungry, lets see whats around here to eat." and forage for food. They can also come upon some tracks and have a better chance to track down whatever it is outside in the wilderness than hunters. When it comes to the wilderness, they know far more about and adapted to it and its hard condtions.

Warriors, on the other hand, do not have a soul purpose outside of the city walls. If they manage to get caught in a storm, while transporting a few wealthy merchants, thats their luck. They are masters of the art of fighitng; not masters of the wilderness.

On the other hand, Caravan guides and Scavengers, seem like two subguilds that should have the ability. But if this ability was offered to subguilds, it would be more than likely that players would pick these two subguilds in order to navigate through the toughest of storms.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

At first, I was with Yokunama about caravan guides, scavengers, and nomads having the storm ability.  But after thinking about it, I am dead set against.  Primarily because the "warrior/hunter" combo is already too close to UberCombatSkillz Faux-Ranger for my tastes.  The other reason I don't think that makes sense is because caravans shouldn't be moving around in the sandstorms.  There are myriad reasons why moving your House's wealth in goods across the desert in a blinding storm is bad, there is no reason why it would be good.   So scratch caravan guides.  With scavengers, you can't even see the ground in a blinding storm - much less anything worth scavenging - and so I can't see how it would help them much, or how they would develop those survival skills.   Scratch scavengers.  Nomads generally are associated with tribal encampments, virtual or otherwise, where they wait out brief storms.   But for harsher weather, they are nomadic and can move to better pastures.  I don't remember much about my Cultural Anthropology 101, but I think drastic weather was one of the main reasons for nomadic cultures to pitch their tents elsewhere.  


I wish folks would quit trying to "balance" the classes.   This game is not about balance.  Just because some nomadic tribes revere, accept, maybe even worship magickers would be no reason at all to give the nomadic subclass, say, a few magick spells to play with.    Yes, Rangers have perks.  Every class does.  If you want those perks, play a ranger.

[Larrath]

The guilds and subguilds -are- balanced.
The guilds are balanced based on domains instead of raw combat strength (the H&S way).  A skilled merchant's forte is his ability to craft and sell goods and amass great wealth.  A skilled ranger's forte is his ability to survive in the desert where just about no others could.  A skilled warrior's ability is to beat things (mostly humanoids thanks to disarm) up.
The balancing declines as the karma gets higher, but everyone knows that even a 1-day sorcerer will have a lot of trouble if he was being chased around by a gortok, and that muls have their slave/escaped slave status working against their becoming all-powerful warriors of doom that do what they want and fear nothing.

Balance between the subguilds is more important, because they don't define your character's strong point (with the possible exception of subguilds that include Listen).  Tricksy elven pickpockets, escaped mul gladiators, half-elven sorcerers and dwarven merchants can all pick the same subguild in order to benefit for its skills.  If we had a Jack-of-all-Trades subguild that would give low-capped listen, hide, sneak, allundean, bash, jewelrymaking and armor repair, you can bet any amount of money that approximately half of the MUD will be using that subguild within half a year for every single character.

Finally,

...After thinking about it, I am dead set against.  Primarily because the "warrior/hunter" combo is already too close to UberCombatSkillz Faux-Ranger for my tastes.

I hope that you're not offended if I also commented that most of your explainations against subguilds should have sandstorm movements look a little half-assed.

Armageddon does have balance, it's just not balanced in the same way that an all-out PK mud is balanced.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

I hope that you're not offended if I also commented that most of your explainations against subguilds should have sandstorm movements look a little half-assed.

Now, why would anyone be offended by such a well-reasoned, well explained comment?   You're entitled to your opinion, I'm curious as to your whole-ass explanation why those specific sub-classes (or any sub-class for that matter) needs to have that perk.

[Larrath]

First of all, I'm going to state that I am not a big supporter of this suggestion, though I can see it being useful in some limited circumstances.
I'm also going to again say that I didn't mean the term half-assed in order to suggest that you, Phoenix, are an ass.

On to the subguilds:
Hunters: your reasoning against this was that warrior/hunters are already too similar to disarming rangers, which simply isn't a realistic IC reason.  Furthermore, weak sandstorms in the desert aren't very uncommon, and a hunter that hunted stirctly while keeping sight of the walls won't really need to be able to check footprints either.  If they can track, they probably get far enough away to need to do so.  If they get far enough away, they'll also need to move through a weak sandstorm (or have one fly into them, again) pretty regularly.

Caravan Guide: Sandstorms are fast and caravans are slow, and there's also no weather broadcasting system.  It's highly possible for a sandstorm to fly directly over the caravan, and the caravan guide would need to find a way to lead it through or back around, both of which will require him to orient himself.

Scavengers: Scavengers generally go to ruins in order to forage (according to the helpfile, at least), and I don't see why they should be able to move through a sandstorm, being codedly unable to forage aside.

Nomad: Drastic changes of weather don't refer to sandstorms that come by roughly times a month.  Moving the tents and the camp can take easily upwards of two weeks as it is, so simply moving out of the storms isn't realistic.  VNPCs don't enjoy the unrealisticly fast movement that PCs and NPCs are afforded.  Nomads live in the deserts, and as such should be able to move from point A to point B even if there is some sand on their way.  If not, they would find themselves unable to get to or out of their camps, and would probably get into very deep shit if the sandstorm lasted for more than a week or two.

[Delirium]

None of those reasons provide a solid basis of argument for being able to navigate in blinding, biting sandstorms, Larrath.

Also, those of the nomadic tribes that go out and hunt and regularly experience those storms are going to be... oh, waitaminnitletmethink... rangers!

Though Armageddon is not "balanced" in the traditional sense, it is possible to have overpowered combinations. Warriors with the ability to move through sandstorms WOULD be one such combination, and it would effectively nullify the whole idea that in the desert = Ranger is king, city = warrior is king.. which is actually true now.

[Larrath]

None of those reasons provide a solid basis of argument for being able to navigate in blinding, biting sandstorms, Larrath.

I agree, which is why I specifically mentioned the sandstorms being light with both Hunters and Nomads.  I simply don't think that anyone should be able to navigate in a sandstorm that would realistically tear the flesh off of your bones.

This might be a good compromise, though.  Only rangers will be able to navigate in the stronger sandstorms while subguild versions (nomad, caravan guide, hunter) will have to hope that the weaker sandstorms don't pick up on them.


Nomad-born psionicists and magickers can't be rangers, nor can their merchants who occasionally leave the camp for forage.  Such merchants wouldn't hunt, and they'd have to either learn how to navigate on their own or could (and more than likely would) pick up the ways the tribe's rangers orient themselves in there, as I can imagine even children would be partially experienced in navigating through a -light- sandstorm.

[Ghost]

And the code already supports for them to navigate through the light storms.

The only case you lose your way, is when there is "blinding, biting" sand.  Only in that storm, you would wish to be a ranger.  And you better be one.

[Savak]

Let's not forget that people can and do, with astonishing regularity, roam the wastes, not get lost, survive, and even create quite a bit of mischief, while NOT being a "ranger" per se.  Yes, there are places in the world which are more likely to have storms so bad the average schmuck will not be able to stay oriented.  But during such storms, really, even the hardiest would typically just hunker down and wait it out, even if they "know" how to get around in it.

The big benefit (IMO) from an IC point of view in being able to navigate such conditions is simply to find a relatively safe place to hole up, rather than try to hole up right where they are.  And to be paid to lead others in such situations.

From a playability point of view, the biggest downside (IMO) is that people apparently can't get around within a city or small village during such conditions.  But in the desert, I think that's the risk you take.

Again -- I still see promise in the idea that various people are MORE or LESS likely to be able to navigate step-by-step (room-by-room) -- but for the moment the code complexity & priority issues means a complete update may very well not happen.  I haven't really heard enough in the way of playability versus balance to convince an overhaul, despite liking the basic principle.

-Savak

[Raesanos]

In my opinion the game is best balanced when each guild is absolutely the undisputed best at what they do. No one has any doubt that warriors are the best at a straight fight on a level playing field. No one has any doubt that a merchent is best at maximizing their profits as a trader. Rangers should be likewise.

Subguilds allow you to access some of the minor perks of other guilds. If you pick the thug subguild, you are better at thugging, but you still are no warrior. I feel that the ranger's ability to travel through heavy storms is a major perk. Giving other guilds access to one of the ranger's major perks would hurt the balance of subguilds as well as hurt the ranger's position as undisputed master of the desert.

As for the game being unplayable for solos due to the new sandstorm code, this is definitely not what I have observed. The people who are suffering most are the people who are not adapting to the new dangers. There are easy things that people can do to avoid trouble like not travelling when the storms are too heavy. Yes its harder now, but the evidence I've seen as players traverse the world is that its nowhere near impossible.

As a side note, for the person who was frusterated that player ideas never get implemented, first look at the number of bugs/ideas/typos from players that get implemented each week. These are not all bugs and typos. Second, note that discussion on the GDB is not a recognized way to submit an idea. If you haven't, submit your ideas using the idea command or email the mud account for formal review.

[Yokunama]

After thinking this over, I noticed that "if subguilds got this perk" they would be the most likely subguilds to be chosen by players and abused by players. Something I am totally against.

Like they say...

If you can't swim, get your ass out of the pool.

Let the people of Zalanthas say...

If you can't survive a sandstorm, get your dumb ass out of the wilderness.

This thread seems more like a complaint that city characters should be able to roam the wilderness, without fear of being lost. If your character has no business out in the wilderness, it shouldn't be able to thrive in it.

There is also a race or two that should have the "perk", but everyone seems to be interested in subguilds and trying to better themselves and their character in the IC world.

Desert Elf - are nearly always members of desert tribes, and wander freely about the wastes hunting for what they need.

Mantis - Two antennae grow from between their eyes, and serve as aids to movement when in darkness.
Note: I can see how the heavy sandstorms could mess up the Mantis's perception in the darkness.


**As far as balance issues are concerned, the game is balanced fairly well.

Just my two sids.

[Yokunama]

If rangers and (some) non-rangers alike can successfully skin an animal or read tracks, then I see no reason why rangers and (some) non-rangers alike, depandant upon subguild/starting location/race/etc., can't successfully navigate through a sandstorm either.

There is a big difference between a hunters and a rangers.

Rangers survivalist of the wilderness. They live off what the wilderness gives them and are more likely to survive in it. Their ability to navigate successfuly through the harsh storms seems to me more like a lore (knowledge) gained from surviving in/through them.

Just because your character can successfully track, skin, and kill an animal doesn't make it like nor more than a ranger. Just because your character can successfuly kill an animal doesn't mean it should be granted the ability to see through Zalanthas's wrath.

Besides, guild_ranger has plenty going for it with or without this skill.  They're also the only guild who can navigate in complete darkness without losing their berrings, the only guild who can forage for roots, the only guild who can become Robin Hood-proficient marksmen with a bow, the only guild who can quit in the wilderness, the only guild who can ... and so on.

This is not about what the rangers have going for them. I can see if it is a huge balance issue, but it isn't. Would you like if all the ranger lovers complained to you about how they can't wield magic, or how they can't make shiney obsidian swords like merchants?

Trust me, boys and girls, you won't be diminishing the abilities of guild_ranger if the skill of moving through sandstorms were granted to a few, other, non-rangers.

Read the following link: http://www.armageddon.org/general/guilds.html
If you find any other guild there supporting any strong background for survivalist of the wilderness, let me know through a reply.

Heres another link: http://www.armageddon.org/general/subguilds.html
There are a few subguilds that have a few reasons as to why they should have the said ability, but giving this ability to subguilds would have its downside and player abuse is one of them.


Edit:
If you can't come up with any "good reasons" why others should have the ability, you are not going to turn any heads.

Note: These reasons are not good and are not going to cut it: (1) Rangers have a lot going for them.  (2) I hunt animals too, but where is my ability to see in sandstorms.

[Angela Christine]

I would say no to hunters, nobody would be hunting in the kind of weather that causes disorientation.  It is also already a very popular and powerful subguild.  Powerful skills (like listen) tend to get stuck in subguilds that are otherwise kind of wimpy.

Maybe Caravan Guides and Nomads.  Or a "Navigator" subclass that can do nothing but move through storms, or perhaps move through storms and find tracks (so they know which way to go).

No to desert elves.  There is no reason why elves from wilderness tribes should be better at navigation than humans from wilderness tribes.  The ones that run around in the open desert are Rangers, the others tend to stay near the main encampment of the tribe with the toddlers, craftsmen and livestock.  Some tribes have permanent base camps with solid walls and everything like Blackwing, others have mobile camps and the whole tribe is nomadic together, but in no tribe does every single member of the tribe run around alone in the wilderness.  The mages, merchants and others that have to be able to move around sometimes should either travel with one of thier tribe's scouts, wait for auspicious weather, take their chances on getting lost in unfamiliar territory, or perhaps take an appropriate subguild (if that was available).  The Nomad or Caravan Guide subguilds are perfectly viable for desert elves, since they are more likely to be fluent in the language of their neighbours in the human tribes (bendune) than in the language of the distant accursed city dwellers (sirihish).

No for gith and halflings, for pretty much the same reasons as elves.

Mantis, eh, maybe.  Their biology is pretty alien, they aren't even mammals, so who knows how they percieve the world?  They don't have the same kind of skin as mammals, maybe their eyes are also different in ways that would help prevent storm-related disorentation.  If their center of gravity is lower they would be less likely to get blown around by a strong wind, and they don't wear clothes that could act as wind sails or blow around and distract them.  Since they are currently an NPC race it doesn't really matter.


Angela Christine

[Maybe42or54]

I have an idea.

When an Imm is reviewing an APP., if the background and the classes don't match, they reject it and tell you too coordinate them?
A merchant that has been in allanak there whole life can't be a nomad.
A warrior that has lived in allanak their whole life can't see well in the sand.
I admit to having a pc background of living in a city the whole time with the guild ranger.

[Smoky]

Having played here for several years, the last one excluded, I would like to say that the ability to navigate in a sandstorm should rest solely with the ranger class.  Subclasses are there to give a boost to skills, not to greatly give the character an advantage.

Smoky
"We all know that 'mullet' means family man."

[Armaddict]

Agreed with Smoky.

I can just see all the warrior hunters playing as rangers now.

[Cenghiz]

Hmm.. bored and wanted to join the fray...
So, giving only a single subguild a slight bonus? Even a slight bonus makes it possible to move ten rooms to that cave with some struggle, so if a warrior was thinking about wandering alone in storm, he would have to choose subguild x if imms agree with me.
I believe there may be a bonus to some other options even now. Has anyone tried all? I don't think an imm would ruin people's fun telling that bonus, how different that is from telling the spells of elementalist x or the branches of guild y? If in the helpfiles of some guild/subguild it writes that they can travel in the desert with ease, maybe they have some luck codewise. Find out IC.