Storm Code

[drunkendwarf]

I'd like to express my frustation with the new storm code. I don't think it adds to gameplay at all. I know the imms are going for something that not only makes storms more dangerous, but makes the idea of a 'guide' something people should really look for. While I agree with both of these, I think the current storm code is way too much.
Case in point:
I was literally moving to a quit safe room outside, a grand total of 10 rooms away, when I was blindsided by both a tembo and a storm, at the same time. I managed to eventually give the tembo the slip, but had to sit for an HOUR AND A HALF to wait for any way to get out of the storm, for fear of getting lost or running into the same tembo. I eventually just crossed my fingers and wandered through the storm to safety...it hadn't even cleared up yet. What if I HAD to leave, and didn't have an hour and a half to wait? I cut link and pray my character lives until the next time I login? I sit idle and hope for the best? Or I just kiss my character goodbye, and have to make a new one simply because I was hit by a storm with absolutely no warning? How does it make this game fun when, every so often and for no apparent reason, I have to accept my character's death because I don't have the time to wait out a storm? That just doesn't sound like fun to me.  Does anyone else feel the same way? Have you had this happen to you before? Perhaps even lost a character because of it? I'd like to hear some feedback from the players. Also, in an effort to be constructive here, I'd like to offer up a few suggestions to bring some playability back to us non-ranger outdoorsy types.
1) Tone down the duration of storms. Having to wait for 2+ RL hours for a storm to subside is WAY too much, in my opinion. If this route was taken, I think leaving the storm code as is would be just fine, provided the storms didn't last more than 30 minutes to an hour.
2) Make roads navigable, regardless of the severity of a storm. It makes no sense that you can't follow a road, unless the storm is so bad you physically can't see (i.e. tremendous sandstorm).  If you want realism, maybe make it so you can only do this while unmounted. I think it'd be pretty obvious when you've walked off a road, immediately after it happened.
3) Perhaps lean the % of a random exit towards the actual direction you're trying to go. As it is now, it seems that it's totally random which way you actually wind up moving, which seems a little off to me. How would you wind up going south, when you're trying to go north? East or west I could understand...but it stills seems that the majority of the time, unless there's absolutely NO landmarkers around, you'd be able to maintain a somewhat straight line, with a few swerves here and there. Again, the exception being when the storm is so bad, you can't see anything in broad daylight.
4) Maybe some weather echoes to let you know a storm is coming? Going from a light breeze and gritty sand to a fierce storm in a matter of two seconds seems pretty severe to me.  Again, I don't see how that makes the game very playable. I know enough not to get involved in anything serious if I only have an hour to play...but should I have to count on at least 4 RL hours to play, in case I get blindsided by a storm?
Not all of us know rangers..and some of us are loner outdoorsy types. The addition of 'weather n' and such was fantastic, but I just think something else should be done as well. I think the current code is just too much.Comments? Ideas? Critiques? Am I just whining? Do people agree? Lemme hear from ya!

[Praetorian]

Regarding storms I think these things should be implemented in some offshoot way:

1) Roads should give immunity to the 'getting disoriented' aspect.  Even if you can only seek your feet, you still know if you are following the edge of a straight-light or even curved road.  Roads are flagged differently, reflecting their differing movement cost to transverse - perhaps tie that in with the storm code.  Finding a road should be a source of salvation to a wastes-wanderer in a sandstorm, not just another source of frustration.

2) Duration - storm duration should be lessened, having a single storm seal off an entire region of the game to non-rangers for essentially 6 out of 7 days RL (yes, this has happened) is just a bit extreme.

3) Not really a difference in implementation, but I have increasing concern that armageddon-mud is slowly shifting to ranger-mud, due to the severity of the storm code.  Look around you...how many pcs are rangers?  Tweaks could be introduced both magickal and non-magickal that would enhance even for limited durations the playability aspect of non-ranger classes in exterior environments.

[Cavus]

We opened many discussion about storms, but nothing changed. So, they won't think differently, don't expect anything.

On the other hand, if you -have to- log out because of RL stuff, you can just "wish all" to Imms, and they simply logs you out. I mean if this is the only result, it has easy solution without code change.


Note: I died to tembo because of storm before.

[Cavus]

I want to add something. If a game has low playability, then no one plays it. Why don't we have as many players as other MUDs have? Think about it. I am trying other MUDs at EU times, but they have at least 50 players even that time periods, and these MUDs do not have higher ranking in TMS. We should create better balance between -playability- and -realism- (maybe not the realism that we think is not really a realism. We imagine this way as realism.).

In this respect, I am on the side of any storm code change suggestion.

[drunkendwarf]

Tweaks could be introduced both magickal and non-magickal that would enhance even for limited durations the playability aspect of non-ranger classes in exterior environments.

Didn't even think of that one...that's a good idea. I'd like to make sure that was with non-magickal characters as well somehow, otherwise it's really only helping a small percentage of the players. Ideas on that?

On the other hand, if you -have to- log out because of RL stuff, you can just "wish all" to Imms, and they simply logs you out. I mean if this is the only result, it has easy solution without code change.

That's all fine and good - assuming there's an immortal on to do this for you. What about the hardcode players mudding away at 5am? Or the overseas players? Not much of a solution to them. Also sounds like it would be a burden on the immortals. A temporary solution at best, in my opinion.

Note: I died to tembo because of storm before.

I've lost a character to the storm code as well, but that's not really my complaint. As I said, I'm all for the storms being dangerous and icky, I'm simply complaining that the way they currently are just isn't playable, simply because of how long it can take to get over it. And as Praetorian had said...having large chunks of the mud (the southlands, the red desert, etc) completely inaccessible to anything other than rangers for RL days on end just isn't fun either. I really like playing outdoorsy type characters....and due to the current storm code, I really don't want to anymore, unless I play a ranger. Ranger-mud ho!

I've also thought up a couple more suggestions, so continuing with my list:
5) Make EVERY class able to quit in the wilderness. This won't fix the duration issue, but at least people won't be FORCED into playing this mud. (I'm sure some would agrue that's not such a bad thing....and to them I say turn off your computer every now and again, and go experience real life. It's kinda cool. Granted, you don't get to ride a kank.  :? ) Maybe this in a way lessens the severity of a storm, because people would just quit out when one hits. But if they're traveling in a group, the chances of them all logging back in at the same time is pretty slim, so you could roleplay getting separated from the group and having to make it back to safety on your own, which can be a bad thing for many characters. Sure, this takes something away from rangers...but the storm code has added something to them so wouldn't that balance out if the storm code is kept the way it is? I dunno, just  tossing out ideas.

6) If not give everyone the ability to quit out naturally, tweak the tent code so you could do it that way. This forces people to lug those tents around, and be prepared for the storms. I'm not sure code-wise how to accomplish this one, if it's feasable. Give people the ability to quit out IF they have a tent in their inventory?

As it is, I'd whole-heartedly agree with Praetorian on this one. Rangers now have everyone else SEVERELY outclassed while in the wilds. A storm hits...not only can a ranger move through it now, but they can also just choose to quit out and wait for it to pass, while the rest of us are stuck waiting for God knows how many RL hours for the thing to blow over, or scrambling to contact a ranger buddy to come and bail them out (If their character is lucky enough to know one), watching the clock slowly tick down to the hour that you have to be at work, school, etc. Someone tell me I'm supposed to be having fun when that happens...because I don't. At all.

[Gaare]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12016

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11578

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11999

[moab]

I believe roads should give some immunity to getting lost in a storm.

I think that having characters getting lost (and unable to find their way back to a quit-safe room) is a HUGE deal in a game where you can only quit in certain specific places.

I have lost numerous beloved characters because I had to leave them logged in when I HAD to leave the game.  RL does take its toll.  I put up with this on Armageddon.  If I was trying another MUD and I ran into this, I would have never played again.

The game should, at some level, flex to my real-life work/school/wife's chore list.

I have always thought it would be great to let everyone quit anywhere and see few disadvantages in it.  One could argue that it isn't realistic, but it also isn't realistic to sit there and get mauled to death by a rat or tregil (or whatever) while your player is trying to drive to work, late, because he spent two hours trying to find a quit-safe room in a storm!
:-D

[Kalden]

Is the disorientation fairly new code? I've never had that problem when dealing with sandstorms in the city...it's never been the same as darkness for me.

If they do make you go in a random direction these days, roads should definitely be immune. Think about it. You can stare at your feet or tap the road to make sure you're staying on it. I suppose I should still blind.

I think the intent behind the code was probably to make warriors capable of randomly dying, drunkendwarf. Just look at the threads from the past. "Make it harsher environmentally, don't just add stronger monsters" was the mantra of the newbies. They apparently wanted warriors to to randomly die in the desert, regardless of skill levels or player knowledge.

[Ghost]

I want to add something. If a game has low playability, then no one plays it. Why don't we have as many players as other MUDs have? Think about it. I am trying other MUDs at EU times, but they have at least 50 players even that time periods, and these MUDs do not have higher ranking in TMS. We should create better balance between -playability- and -realism- (maybe not the realism that we think is not really a realism. We imagine this way as realism.).

In this respect, I am on the side of any storm code change suggestion.

Armageddonmud has quite a remarkable number of players online.  That means, we -do- have as many players as other muds have, unless you are comparing it with Achaea or something like that of the record.  But storm code has nothing to do with Achaea's having more players than Arm.

Arm has lower playerbase than Achaea, because Zalanthas is a real brutal and harsh world with a well put realism into it.  And the RP-enforced fact, with permanent death added to the bruteness, that is what makes Arm unique.  Not everybody is playing muds for such a reason.  Most play muds for Hack'n Slash, chat, or just to feel like being in a fantasy world.  So that is where the reason Arm does not have as many players.  Arm is not just for "hanging around to kill" reason.
If it is just to make more people into the game, we could as well remove the perma death, which would make the game less harsh and some hack'n slash minds would flock into the game.  But is that really what we want?

About the original post:  I hear you.  I know Storm code is not as the backbone of Arm as the perma death issue.  But it adds to the game still, and I feel like the Storm code should stay in the game.  It indeed still is not too harsh, because only "blinding biting sand" makes you lose your way around.  And that is really one level lower than the most fearsome of the storms.  Such a storm indeed, would make more than just lose your way around.  It would deal a good damage, it can really temporarily blind you, make you lost completely, and even kill you.
To make it playable, we only lose our way once in a while.  Which is acceptable I think.

The only way that makes it really tough is the duration of the storms.  It is a pain sometimes if it lasts more than a few RL days.   That I agree, and hear you man, but I heard the storm code is something as evil monster as the crime code.  Whoever gets into working with it, gets lost.
And I agree the roads can be immune to it.

[fearwig]

There are items in the game by their description inherently meant to help people fare in storms, hoods perhaps being the very most common among them (though there are others even more specifically aimed at that role). Sadly, at present, they have no effect on storm visibility, as their descriptions would indicate. Perhaps that could be changed, for one thing.

Secondly, I would agree that in a city or road situation, there is little to no chance of you "losing your bearings" every damn time a storm comes up. Sure, hike the stamina cost, or add a significant extra walking lag, if that's codedly feasible. But this "walking back and forth for ten minutes on a one-direction street" stuff is silly, and I've had it happen.

I've regularly suggested that some kind of system by which storms could produce a limited view of your surroundings through an extra (mostly blank) description. This kind of thing could be implemented upon the code by macro, given its simplicity--there's already an allowance for night, after all, one that's generally taken advantage of.

So, in all but the absolute worst blinding storms (which would be very rare, we'd hope, or short-lived as a rule), you'd see your surroundings and the exits, but you wouldn't see the room description or anyone there. Or perhaps you'd see them as shadows, or see only some of them, some of the time as shadows, or what-have-you. Lots of room for innovation, here.

But yeah, most of this would entail a lot of work. I still think hoods, surmacs, sunslits, and similar devices should protect your vision from the sand, though, as they would be indicated to do.


I *love* that we have a harsh environment, guys, but an unrealistic -form- of harshness isn't always admired by the players, I think. For instance, when a computer or console game you're playing has a bug in it that makes playing it damn near impossible (but just barely possible), you consider that annoying, especially when that bug doesn't resemble reality. In the same way, I'm inclined to look on unrealistic "stumble" code in that same fashion. If you are in an alley, on a road, or in some other way in clear view of your path, you are not going to stumble off in an absolutely random direction. Silly. And that tembo that's chasing you? He can't see shit either! And you can't smell a thing with bad wind, so don't pull that one on us. It's a great game, but storm code as it is offers up so many bizarre and unrealistic flaws... it would be lovely to see it one day really worked out, but I think for that to happen the people involved have to admit that something is at least a little bit screwy, right?

It indeed still is not too harsh, because only "blinding biting sand" makes you lose your way around. And that is really one level lower than the most fearsome of the storms.

Well, that sounds very nice, doesn't it? But it does happen once every several days, even in the cities, and can sometimes last until the next reboot, even days away.

[Bardex]

Agreed on the duration. Especially in certain areas, even though those areas are the "obvious hit list" for storms.

A suggestion for reprieve for "naturally stormy areas" that wouldn't detract from the harshness:

Out of every 4 RL hours, let the winds shift 10 rooms to the east. Then have it shift 10 rooms to the west 4 RL hours later. Make it a standardized time shift. This can be easily explained ICly just like it can in real life. Wind bounces through wind-tunnels and there is a real phenomena that causes it to shift at regular intervals, people can almost set their clocks by it. (I used to live in an area like that, trust me, it takes CAREFUL planning to leave at JUST the right moment)

This way, a non-ranger can get through that area IF he plans his day wisely. He could head out a RL hour before the storm is set to shift, risk being stuck for only a few minutes, and then be able to proceed. If he heads out at the wrong time, he's outta luck.

[Cavus]

I am trying other MUDs at EU times, but they have at least 50 players even that time periods, and these MUDs do not have higher ranking in TMS.

Dear Ghost,
If you read my post more carefully you can see this sentence. Of course, I am not talking about Achea. I am talking about MUDs at ranking of 10s. For sure, we can also talk about MUDs other than first three.

In addition, I am not accusing storm code as only factor. Playability is important in all games. Make it harsh, make it harsh, harsher, and more harsher...Wait a sec, and think a little. For example, storm can last 3-4 IG days(and this makes sense ICly), but that makes 4.5-6 RL hours. Who can wait in the middle of storm for RL hours? Or, who can wait for going hunt for RL hours especially if he has couple of hours for that day to play?

Yes, some other features of this game also reduces playability, but those features makes Arm ARM. Those features adds realism and harshness to game, but does not affect RL constraints.

Note: I did not forget CrimCode and some other problems of Player base, but let's stay in original post.

[Gaare]

Why would this code distract some of us this much?

-You both want to play an awesome fighter and hunt anything in wilderness everyday alone?

- You are running a magicker and wish to visit your city daily and trying to not identify yourself so want to be alone?

- You are a non-fighter character and wish to make small walks in the wilderness or collect your own resource for making LARGE amount of sid?

-You are a noble, high ranking merchant and templar and wish to make travels in wilderness with your NPC guards?

Interaction is absolutely good! And IMO anything that creates interesting RP opportunites is a good addition to game. I can not think good reasons why it is hard to accept new code... really.. I mean that code was just a bug and now fixed and part of ARM. I also sometimes get bored because of a few days of storm, it's trade of is much bigger.

detail:
 There are many beaitful hack&slash computer games and really excellent Multi-player ones too.. And I guess some of them have minimum thousands of players online in each hour of the day. That's a genre.. and ARM has its own.

[Armaddict]

Don't go into sandstorms without a ranger or when you're not a ranger.

Check the weather before you leave.

When you do get caught in a sandstorm, find shelter, like normal people do.

3-4 IG days is what, 36 to 48 hours?  I don't think that's an unfeasible amount of time for one to last.

You don't think it's playable and want to inspire some sort of trip by blaming our lack of players on the harshness of the game that we all play for?  Don't play a character type that will have to endure the storms.  Stay in the city, get a job, like most of the zalanthan population does.  There's a reason you don't want to go out in the wilderness unless you're experienced.

[fearwig]

I think the big complaint is about sandstorms that last multiple real-life days even inside the city. I've seen it happen, and do you know what it means? "Okay, Armageddon, see you in a few days." Not a huge tragedy, I guess, but you have to admit it defeats the purpose sometimes. Storms inside the city can blind, disorient, and screw you over just as badly, and while they're more rare, they're all but unheard of, especially in some regions. You can't see a damned thing for two RL days, and you won't play for those days. That's a given.

Rather long, nasty storms outside the city are fine by me, especially in the sandy south. Roads should be harder to get lost upon, still, I say, simply because that's realistic--balance has nothing to do with that, to me. I still would like to see coded ways to combat them as I've mentioned, perhaps at the expense of certain other factors (like a combat disadvantage due to shrouded vision), but that's all fine-tuning.

[Bardex]

Red Storm is a location allowable for new characters to show up in. It's called Red Storm for a reason, but new players with their first characters might not understand the severety of the situation, AND the duration of the severety.

I would suggest, if people really don't think this is a problem, that the Hall of Kings allow ONLY rangers to log into Red Storm with their new characters. Otherwise, there's very little point in showing up there at all, because it isn't *playable* when you have to rely on a ranger to help you around outside, and you're the only PC there for hours and hours on end.

[Forest Junkie]

I'd like to express my frustation with the new storm code.

This is exactly what the immortals -want- from the players, in my opinion. They want us to be frustrated with the storm code. Why? Becase our characters live on a desert world with howling winds that rip the flesh off of any person not properly clothed. Because our characters are traversing through leagues of storms which would make any normal person from Earth its bitch. If that's not realism, spank my ass and call me Charlie.

The code is fine the way it is, to me. It is a perfect balance between the wilderness and the city. Anyone who is blinded in the desert due to a nasty storm obviously isn't meant for desert travel. Only the hardiest of travelers and hunters should be given the skill to navigate through these harsh, deadly storms. If you are not a 'ranger', get the hell out and find some shelter.

1) Warriors are good at whipping ass in the cities as guards, not riding around Zalanthas killing uber critters just because they "can". (You know who you are)

2) Assassins are good at slitting people's throats in the cities as contract killers, not leathery-hardass hunters in the sands who practice their backstab on scrab to beef up their shits. (You know who you are)

3) Magickers are just screwed. Either keep that gem on, or pray to Whira she's nice enough to let your tainted ass on through.

If you currently playing a character in the desert who is -not- a ranger, you have absolutely nothing to complain about. You made that decision on your own, and will have to live with the consequences. You should not be given the same perks as the guild 'ranger', because you do not deserve them, nor need them. You have your own awesome abilities, so go use them where it's viable.

The storm code:

A) Allows for more interaction between players in the game. Trust me, I was just apart of something like this last night. It was played out well, and involved a skilled ranger leading a few others back to their sekrit hideout of mass destrukshun.

B) Allows for the guild 'ranger' to be worth something out in the desert. If you are pissed because your 50 day city warrior cannot traverse a 60-league long sandstorm, for the love of all that is Hindu go hire a damn ranger to help you through it. I'm sure you can afford it. If you can't....tough?

C) Allows for there to be a clear line drawn between desert and city life. Still not clear? Rangers live in the wastes of DEATH, while the other guilds live in the city, where the shadows bring DEATH. The differences are so great, yet so small when you compare both sides.

D) Rangers are given clout. No longer will max warriors lead caravans of merchants beacuse they have mapped the known area and know exactly where to spam past the spear-throwing gith. We actually have a -need- for skilled rangers who have memorized the area about them countless times, and can travel through areas any normal wo/man couldn't.

[Ghost]

Who can wait in the middle of storm for RL hours? Or, who can wait for going hunt for RL hours especially if he has couple of hours for that day to play?
I have never seen any blinding storms inside the city that lasted more than a few hours.  If it is at night IG, yeah, we can lose the sight, but still in the daylight you see where you are going.  So I really have not witnessed the storms crippling the cities.  (It might be my luck, but still..)

Cavus,

Those muds are not RPI muds.  They don't have perma death.  There are few muds with perma death, and in which RP is enforced, and Arm is the one with the most playerbase (Or so it was at least, last I checked).  Surely I can name a few muds with 1000 experience levels and 20-40 different guilds and races that has 50-200 players at all times.  But those muds are not anywhere near Arm, and you can't compare them even in the same league.But to have such a huge playerbase, I would not want to drop the perma death, and the RP environment of the Arm.

Who can wait in the middle of storm for RL hours? Or, who can wait for going hunt for RL hours especially if he has couple of hours for that day to play?

Why I like the storm code is actually here.  I am playing a non-ranger character, it actually codewise gives me the idea that the desert is dangerous.  Not because of the scrabs and gortoks and the gith, but because of the sun and the sands itself.  If you are going outside, the weather code enforces you to seek for a guide.  If you can't find one, weather code makes you pay attention to how the weather is.  If you still have to go, you go, and you take your chances of the survival.  When you are going to outside without a guide, you are taking the risk of getting lost.  You have the option not to take the risk.

You are making your life off the desert?  Then it is better you play a ranger.  While living off the desert, it just tells you in a realistic way, to know your limits.

Why would this code distract some of us this much?

-You both want to play an awesome fighter and hunt anything in wilderness everyday alone?

- You are running a magicker and wish to visit your city daily and trying to not identify yourself so want to be alone?

- You are a non-fighter character and wish to make small walks in the wilderness or collect your own resource for making LARGE amount of sid?

-You are a noble, high ranking merchant and templar and wish to make travels in wilderness with your NPC guards?

It is put here quite in a simple way, why it should not be that much of a trouble.  You are a desert type, play a ranger.  If you are not a ranger, you should be prepared for the desert.

EDIT:  Don't think I did not suffer of this code.  My non-ranger character was stuck in a city state for 4 RL days, while he had to move to the other one.  And this 4 RL days waiting happened three or four times.  He once had a near death experience as well all about this code.  But I believe the desert deserves this much of fear and trouble.

[Twilight]

I've been a bit out of touch, so it may have changed in the last few months, but if not...

The blinding storms would be just fine, except the entire weather code is screwed up by the fact that there are not dynamic storms within zones.  A storm is not a defined area in and of itself.  Weather effects are based on the zone, and are zone wide.  You will consistently notice that weather changes in the same places, again and again, so it is pretty obvious this is the case.

Armageddon zones are absolutely huge.  If you are in the middle of a zone, the weather can be windy but clear.  Two seconds later the entire zone could be enveloped in a sandstorm.  You are screwed.  Okay, but now you have to travel out of the zone, to a zone that might have the same weather?

They should have fixed the damn weather code before implementing anything like this.  Make a real storm, based off of a key object with a random spawn.  Key object moves slowly in the direction of the wind through rooms. spawning weather code in X rooms from it.  Thats a damn storm.  One you can see coming and take the appropriate measures against.  I'm sure there are other ways to make a dynamic storm, which really needs to happen before something like disorienting storms.

The zone wide thing is a cheap hack, sorry.

[Cuusardo]

A bunch of things I was going to say and totally agree with.

You made some great points, FJ.

The game is not about the wildenerness.  It's about the entire world.

[drunkendwarf]

All right, since a few people have interpreted my posts as something along the lines of 'The storm code makes this game too hard, and that sucks.' type whining, please let me clarify. I saw at least one person who lost a characer because of a sandstorm lasting several RL hours, and then RL life taking over, having to cut link...character getting chewed to bits while linkdead. As I'd said a few times, I'm all for making sandstorms all icky and whatnot...I'm just bitching about the PLAYABILITY of them. Does no one else think it really sucks to loose a character like this? How many newbs do you think we might have lost because of this? If you want to make storms all uberbadass, for the love of god at least let people quit out in them, if nothing else. Or cut down on the duration. Or SOMETHING so I don't have to kiss my character goodbye, because I was blindsided by a storm THREE HOURS before I had to go to work. It's just rediculous.

Don't go into sandstorms without a ranger or when you're not a ranger.

Sound advice. How about when one comes to you, with absolutely no warning.

Check the weather before you leave.

Again, sound advice. Does absolutely nothing when you're hit by a sandstorm, with absolutely no warning.

When you do get caught in a sandstorm, find shelter, like normal people do.

And it's just that easy, when you're hit by a sandstorm with absolutely no warning. Sensing a theme here?

3-4 IG days is what, 36 to 48 hours? I don't think that's an unfeasible amount of time for one to last.

Maybe you can sit in front of your computer for 3-4 RL days...I can't.


Here's another idea to add to my list to tweak the storm code (I don't remember what number I'm on):
8? ) Give a subguild that allows people to either quit out in the wilds, or navigate storms just like a ranger, but not both. Then you're forcing people to blow their subguild if they want to play an outdoorsy type and not be a ranger. Why should you have to pick a MAIN class to get this benefit? Why shouldn't a desert warrior, who's never set foot inside a city, be able to navigate a storm...or at least hunker down (quit) and wait for it to pass over? Why shouldn't that nomadic Rukkian, who's never even SEEN a city, be able to do the same? The list goes on. People keep talking about realism...I see absolutely no realism in a storm rearing up out of absolutely nowhere, and I see no realism in having ONE freaking class be able to deal with it at all.

[drunkendwarf]

Just an afterthought.
Why the hell can a tembo, raptor, etc:
A) Navigate completely unhindered through blinding, biting sands.
B) Track you through blinding, biting sands.
C) Track you from room A to adjacent room B when you've made it physically impossible to get from room A to adjacent room B, by going through a room you haven't even left tracks in. It'd be too IC to elaborate on that one...and it doesn't have anything to do with a sandstorm, but I think it helps to prove my point that the track code is also just as whacked as the current storm code, espeically when the two are combined.

[Forest Junkie]

Just an afterthought.
Why the hell can a tembo, raptor, etc:
A) Navigate completely unhindered through blinding, biting sands.
B) Track you through blinding, biting sands.
C) Track you from room A to adjacent room B when you've made it physically impossible to get from room A to adjacent room B, by going through a room you haven't even left tracks in. It'd be too IC to elaborate on that one...and it doesn't have anything to do with a sandstorm, but I think it helps to prove my point that the track code is also just as whacked as the current storm code, espeically when the two are combined.

Friend, npc's are not bound by the same laws as pcs. Mobs can pretty much do anything they want without much lag or failure, due to the fact that they are insanely badass critters. Every animal you listed is, in fact, HARDCORE BADASS. Sure, I agree that a gortok or dujat tracking you halfway across the known world is pretty crazy, but I do believe the code supports animals whose belly's are "full", am I right?

If you don't want to be fillin' that tembo's belly, don't go outside.

If you are not a ranger, don't go outside alone.

If you are not a ranger, plan on the worst happening. It usually does.

If you are not a ranger, be prepared to get pissed off at the game because a sandstorm won't let you move 5 squares northwest back to the gates of Luir's.

Every situation you have given is noted, but I think in every instance, all of this stress could have been avoided by HIRING A RANGER. If I'm not mistaken, is this not what the staff is trying to promote? Golly those dastardly imms are at it again, trying to ruin our fun!

[Malifaxis]

Reading over this, I would like to invite you all to go down to New Mexico, or Arizona, or Texas, or Saudi Arabia, or somewhere with sand and stand there in the open until a sandstorm hits, and then see how well you can navigate.

It aint easy.

I do very much agree that roads should offer a reduced chance of getting lost.  Immunity?  No.  Reduced, definitely.

The one problem I have with sandstorms is the in-city aspect.  Inside a city, there should be plenty of nooks and crannies and whatnot to duck into in order to squint a view of some surrounding landmark to orient yourself before you head off again through the whirling abrasive madness.  There should be virtual immunity from getting lost while travelling in-city in a sandstorm, but there should be a GREATLY increased travel time and movement cost.

[Twilight]

When I started this game, the area around Red Storm permanently had the get lost in the sand code.  This wasn't so bad, because you could hire a ranger.  Of course, the only reason you could hire a "ranger" was because people were a lot more loose in letting people know what hard coded guild they were.

Today is different.  You are telling me I should hire someone based on their hard coded guild?  Because I would need to, if I wanted to get the benefit of someone who could navigate the sands.  Of course, there are roundabout ways of inquiring, but that warrior with a background of nomad, or that desert merchant, or that raised/bred/lives in the wastes desert elf, who might answer yes to those roundable questions, has a good chance of not being a ranger.  They have perfectly good backgrounds to be able to navigate the waste during a storm, they just don't have the coded ability.

So, how is "hiring a ranger" relevant, really?  Because you go so far down the path of OOC knowledge there (hard coded skill to one class, which hard coded class you need, determining someone's hard coded class) I feel like I am in a time machine, going back in time.

[Armaddict]

That's us speaking out of character.  The class is the one with the benefits.

IC, you'd be asking for a wilderness guide, a scout...you know...the thing you're -looking- for.

[Twilight]

Armaddict, you seem to have missed my point.  Yes, you are asking about an IC profession.  Those professions aren't necessarily rangers by any means.  But a character with guild of ranger is all that works.  A warrior who says he is a scout is just as valid as a ranger or mindbender telling you the same thing.

[Forest Junkie]

A warrior who says he is a scout is just as valid as a ranger or mindbender telling you the same thing.

The rangy, windswept man says, in tribal-accented sirihish, "Aye, been's out in da wastes a fews, perty much know mah way 'round there."

The gaunt, stringy-haired male says, in sirihish, "Oh yeah? Guessin' you know how to avoid them nasty storms then too yeah? Maybe even help lead my caravan out of one if it happens to sneak up on us?"

The rangy, windswept man furrows a brow, giving a slight shake of his head after a moment's pause.

The rangy, windswept man says, in tribal-accented sirihish, "Nah, them storms blow too nasty for me to get through, usually."

The gaunt, stringy-haired male says, in sirihish, "Too bad. Thank's for yer time then. We'll contact you soon, if we can't find anyone more suited."

Play out the situations man. Ask specific questions that the person in question could only answer by revealing their class. Ask them if they have experience traversing storms alone, successfully.

It can't be that difficult Twilight. C'mon now.

[drunkendwarf]

Friend, npc's are not bound by the same laws as pcs.

That's kinda my point...why aren't they affected by storms? I know there's not alot of other things that can be done about some of the npc stuff...no movement lag, etc. But it would seem like this should be changed...if we're gonna get our asses handed to us by a sandstorm...so should the tembo. Unless of course, it's HIRED A RANGER

If you don't want to be fillin' that tembo's belly, don't go outside.
If you are not a ranger, don't go outside alone.

Gee, sounds like a lot of fun if I want to play something outdoorsy, and not be a ranger.

It bubbles down to one thing: Make the damn storms more playable. I'm not saying they have to be lessened (thought I'm sure I've suggested it), I'm not saying get rid of the code, all I'm saying is think about the players.

Not everyone can afford to HIRE A RANGER.
The emaciated, gubby man says "I could give yeh this pile of dung to take me out so's I can grab fer some food in the scrubs...also gots me some pocket lint, if'n yer interested in that instead. If yeh wait awhile..might be TWO piles of dung."

Not everyone wants to HIRE A RANGER.
The wispy-haired, skinny man says in sirihish "Um...could I hire you to take me out into the desert, so I can raid a few people?"

The barrel-chested, ebony man says in sirihish "Hey...I'm lookin' fer a guide so's I can go out an' practice up my magickin'...jes' make sure yeh look the other way when we get out there, eh?"

Not everyone can HIRE A RANGER.

The shifty-eyed, gaunt elf says, in rinthi-accented sirihish "Yeh take me out inta the wilds fer some coin?"

The stiff-jawed, suave ranger says, in sirihish "Feck off, skinny."


I wasn't aware rangers needed to become 'worthwhile' anyways...they seemed just fine to me as they were...and in fact, they were my favorite class before this storm code was reinstated.

Hey...maybe we should make it so only merchant characters can buy things from NPC shopkeepers! That way whever someone needs to buy or sell something, they have to:
HIRE A MERCHANT

Seems to me they need more help than rangers ever did.

Why can't caravan guides navigate storms as well?

Caravan guides are skilled in desert travel.

This is the biggest one, in my opinion, to have some sort of ability to deal with sandstorms. They after all are, caravan guides.
Or maybe even nomads?  

Nomads are adept at shrewd bartering in the desert markets.

Logic dictates they get to these desert markets somehow.

If the storm code isn't going to be changed back..for the love of God, allow people to deal with a storm if they've been blindsided. Let them quit out...even if they have to pick a nomad or caravan guide as a subguild to do it. Let people do SOMETHING other than cut link and kiss their character goodbye, if they get hit by a storm 2 hours before having to go to work. Let tents allow people to quit out. Have hoods, sunslits etc. actually do something, even if it means a 1 minute movement lag between rooms to avoid getting lost...they'd still never be able to get away from that uber tembo who doesn't seem affected by the storm whatsoever. Forcing people to pick a ranger class in order to do anything out of the gates is one of the lamest things I've heard of.
Never leaving the gates without a ranger sounds like as much fun to me as pulling out my ass hairs with tweezers.

[Tamarin]

I don't think there are enough storms.  And when there are, I don't think they are harsh enough.  On a world like Zalanthas, I'm amazed that people aren't being swallowed whole by huge, 12-foot moving sand dunes.

Vote YES for Killer Storms.

[Cuusardo]

It all boils down to the fact that some people just aren't that savvy when it comes to the wilderness.  If you aren't one of those people, and you can't find, afford, or get one to help you, then chances are you're SOL, no matter who you are or why you need one of them.

[drunkendwarf]

I don't think there are enough storms. And when there are, I don't think they are harsh enough. On a world like Zalanthas, I'm amazed that people aren't being swallowed whole by huge, 12-foot moving sand dunes.

It all boils down to the fact that some people just aren't that savvy when it comes to the wilderness. If you aren't one of those people, and you can't find, afford, or get one to help you, then chances are you're SOL, no matter who you are or why you need one of them.

Let me state this again:
I agree.
I'm all for having storms icky, nasty, blinding, etc etc etc. My main complaint is this: When you happen to get stuck in one and don't have 15RL hours to wait for it to pass over, it sucks ass. I'm trying to offer up advice on how to make it more playable for people who don't have 15 RL hours to commit to the mud when they feel like leaving the gates. This is my #1 complaint. If nothing else at all...let people quit out during a storm...let SOMETHING happen so you don't have to make a new character because you've been blindsided with 2 hours until you have to log off. I've just been trying to make a few suggestions to make storms more playable, not necessarily less drastic or icky.

Granted, some of my suggestions have been to lessen the severity of storms in certain ways...but they're exactly that. Suggestions. I'm just trying to make these storms more playable for people. How many newbies do you think will stick with it when they spend a few hours making a character, wait a day for it to be approved, and die shortly after the 4 hour mark 5 rooms outside the gates because they got nailed by a storm while on foot, foraging for branches and had to cut link after waiting several RL hours for the storm to pass. I'm pretty sure I'd move on to a different mud if I was in their shoes.
For the record, I voted for the last option in the poll. I don't mind the storm code, I just think it needs to be tweaked to allow some playability for everyone. It seems several people agree.

[Cuusardo]

Rangers can quit out in the wilderness, even during a sandstorm.

[Pantoufle]

I appreciate the storm code about as much as I appreciate the shop-closing code (which isn't much).  It makes no sense, to me, for a shopkeeper to just stand there all night, doing seemingly nothing, and then tell you to come back at dawn.  Hey buddy, while you're just standing there doing nothing, instead of shooing me away wouldn't you rather actually have some business and make money?  It would make more sense, to me, if these shops would actually close, barring entry, or if the NPC shopkeeper vanished for the night.  I also don't think, in this case, realism should outweight playability.  Sure it's realistic for a shop to close, but it's an unreasonable setup in a world where we all have a very finite time to play the game.

I compare this notion of realism vs. playability to the storm code.  First of all, if I can actually see the room I am in, then I should have free range of movement (guild_ranger or not).  I could understand if my sight was blinded completey (as in, "You can't see a thing; sand swirls around you!")  In this case it would make sense to stumble through the storm blindly.  Why?  Because you're actually blinded and can't see the room you're in!  Sadly, the current sandstorm code is basically asking the playerbase to remain safely cooped within their taverns and clan compounds, so we can all play boring, pampered personas, whiling our time away without any hope of real excitement.  While interesting, the idea of using "rangers" as a guide in the storms only looks good on paper.  It's horribly impractical and only serves to confine the playerbase into a state of stagnation.

I only see the sandstorm code as worthwhile if some serious changes were implemented.  It might alleviate the tremendous OOC handicap this code offers if the hunter subguild was also able to successfully navigate through a storm, and not just guild_ranger.  I'm sure there are people in the real world who have full understanding of one wilderness skill, but not all.  Some people could be the best trackers in the world, but when it comes to making a simple camp fire, they fail miserably.  To me, it makes sense to only allow guild_sorcerer the ability to gather mana, or for guild_warrior to be the only guild with the ability to become the best swordsman, rivaling all other guilds in straight up combat.  But I don't see the ability to navigate through storms as such a mighty, rare ability that only guild_ranger should have access to this one.  And, again, no matter what arguement you suspend before me, the bottom line is, the sandstorm code is far more of an OOC nuisance than an IC reality.

[drunkendwarf]

Rangers can quit out in the wilderness, even during a sandstorm.

Yes, thank you for that bit of insight. If you'd care to reread my posts I believe I've already brought this point up. Multiple times. I think you've missed the entire point of my postings. Please reread them.

[drunkendwarf]

I'd also like to point out the current results of the poll. I'm obviously not alone. Could we perhaps get a bit of immortal feedback on this one? Haven't heard from a single one yet.

I like the idea of storms being deadly. I hate the idea of loosing a character for OOC reasons (having to cut link in a storm and go to work, because I didn't have 15RL hours to wait it out). There my complaint, summed up in two sentences.

[Delirium]

I hate the idea of loosing a character for OOC reasons (having to cut link in a storm and go to work, because I didn't have 15RL hours to wait it out). There my complaint, summed up in two sentences.

So uh, don't go out if you think you might have to log out abruptly?

Don't go out into the DESERT alone with a CITY-based character?

Seems simple to me.

And from everything I've read before, and though I know it can bite to lose a beloved character to OOC circumstances, Armageddon's general stance on that has been 'sorry 'bout your luck'.

I do agree that the storm code could use some variability, Twilight's idea is a good one, but it is NOT unplayable as it is now if you take a moment to step back and consider the realism of the situation. The desert is a nasty place that can kill you without ever drawing blood, and I think the fixed storm code was a badly needed step in the right direction.

[Ghost]

First of all, if I can actually see the room I am in, then I should have free range of movement (guild_ranger or not).  I could understand if my sight was blinded completey (as in, "You can't see a thing; sand swirls around you!")  In this case it would make sense to stumble through the storm blindly.  

Well.. The storm code already doing that.  That is, only when there is "blinding biting sand" around you, you have the chance to lose your way.  So it just kicks you only when
"You can't see a thing; sand swirls around you!"
AND when you get
"The blinding, biting sand whips around you".
message while you are moving.  Both of these actually, blind you as it is clearly writen in the message.

Just one notch below that level:
"Terrible biting sand whips around you"
If you are getting this message, or if it is something of a less powerful storm, you don't get lost.  So the storm code makes sense.. No?

And that high level of the storms are not really much around.  Either I am too lucky, or it is that they don't last too long around.  The fact that people don't go out in the desert when there is even the slightest of the breeze is the fear of the storm code.  And I think, it is how it should be.  People should fear the desert, and the storm code is providing it.  You should lose your way when there is a "blinding" storm and it provides it.

IF you are going outside, without a ranger, and yourself as a city type character, then you are taking a -risk-.  The storm can come to you, or you may go to that one.  You are taking that risk.  If you are quitting in a safe room in the desert, and when you log in, the storm is all around whipping you, you are suffering because you took a risk before.  I would like the storm code stay this way still.  If you need to go to the desert, you hire a ranger.. Yes, it might not be that you prefer not to hire one.. So you check the weather while you go.  But still you run the risk of getting caught in a storm, that picks up after you go out.  But it is a damn RISK you took.  There is a reason why 80% of all the known world is staying in the city states, 10-13% is staying in the outposts/villages closed with walls so the storm does not kick in too harsh.

[drunkendwarf]

So uh, don't go out if you think you might have to log out abruptly?

Or if you have to log out in 2RL days...as these storms often last that long.

[naatok]

I personally get a naughty tingle in my groin when thinking about sandstorms so violent they rip exposed flesh from bone.

But then again, I'm evil.

I think the secret to getting along with storm code is...you gotta be evil.

Play an evil character.  Evil characters don't give a damn about sandstorms.
They laugh when sandstorms roll across the wastes toward them.  They cackle at the thought of being lost in the depths of a blinding, biting, sand friggin' hurricane!  You see...evil people ignore harsh reality because they're constantly trying to change it...and make it harsher for others so they can cackle with insane, evil glee as they watch those around them writhe in sick, desperate futile abandon when the evil poop hits the evil fan.

But on a more serious note, I do think the storm code should have some limits on how long a storm will last.  Not because it would be realistic for a world like Zalanthas (after all, Mars is a desert planet.  A cold one, but still a desert world.  Sandstorms on Mars can last for months and cover the entire planet).  I think storms on Zalanthas should have limited duration because if not, the wilderness will be empty and there won't be anyone for my evil characters to interact with.  To torment and to cackle at and say, "You foolish goodie-goodies!  See how the storms mock you as I mock them...AND you!"

:twisted:

I know, I know.  But this thread needed some levity.

One thing I would like to see is perhaps a seasonal nature to sandstorms on Zalanthas.  Maybe times in the year (Low Sun or Sun Ascending or Descending) when sandstorms are more prevalent.  And other times where they are much less prevalent.

Thoughts?

[Delirium]

One thing I would like to see is perhaps a seasonal nature to sandstorms on Zalanthas.  Maybe times in the year (Low Sun or Sun Ascending or Descending) when sandstorms are more prevalent.  And other times where they are much less prevalent.

Maybe it's my imagination, but it already seems to be this way.

[Rhyden]

I think the secret to getting along with storm code is...you gotta be evil.

Play an evil character.  Evil characters don't give a damn about sandstorms.
They laugh when sandstorms roll across the wastes toward them.  They cackle at the thought of being lost in the depths of a blinding, biting, sand friggin' hurricane!  You see...evil people ignore harsh reality because they're constantly trying to change it...and make it harsher for others so they can cackle with insane, evil glee as they watch those around them writhe in sick, desperate futile abandon when the evil poop hits the evil fan.

But all my characters are sweet and kind people who love everything and strive for global peace...

...

NOT!!! :twisted:

I agree with Naatok and say up with the evil characters cackling their heads off in the middle of sandstorms.

One thing I would like to see is perhaps a seasonal nature to sandstorms on Zalanthas.  Maybe times in the year (Low Sun or Sun Ascending or Descending) when sandstorms are more prevalent.  And other times where they are much less prevalent.

Thoughts?

I'd be cool with that. Don't know if it would be realistic given Zalanthas' revolvation around its sun but it could work.

[Bestatte]

Naatok is vile, viscious, nasty, evil, and psychologically disturbing. And that's why I love him so much.

That said, there already is a pattern in place for the storm code. I think that's part of the problem. In some areas, by Tuesday afternoon, the storm becomes "blinding" and just kinda stays there til reboot on Saturday (or until a game crash). In other areas, it'll be clear from reboot til thursday, then it'll slowly get worse until Saturday morning when it's unbearable. In some areas, it'll be visual for almost the entire RL week, with very few exceptions.

There is definitely a pattern. I think many people would just like to see this pattern broken up a little more.

[Twilight]

Forest Junkie wrote:

Ask specific questions that the person in question could only answer by revealing their class.

Um...this is -precisely- what I was talking about, in the you "this was done all the time in the past but you shouldn't really be doing this" sense.

[lazycritic]

Heh...reminds me of that post about "unbalance". Every guild cannot be whatever it wants to be, and this is an obvious example.

Don't go out into the DESERT alone with a CITY-based character?

Seems simple to me.

Caravan Guide? Nomad? Hunter? Desert Elf?

CITY-based characters that practically live in the DESERT?  :shock:

[Maybe42or54]

Balance to me is defined as "If you can switch 2 things and not skrew up more than those 2 then it is balanced."

All except Ranger seems to be city based. And even rangers can be city-based. (magick and skill aside)

A ranger can be anything with the subguilds, but nothing can be a ranger with the subguilds. Am I correct?

A ranger can be a merchant, but a merchant can't be a ranger.
A ranger can be a warrior, but a warrior can't navigate int he wind.
A ranger can be an assasin in the sands, but an assasin can't.
A ranger can be a pick-pocket with the subguild. A thief can't be a ranger though.
A ranger can be a burglar of wagons, but a burglar can't.

Am I wrong in my thinking?
Maybe a new guild that is desert based is in order?

[wizturbo]

Caravan Guide? Nomad? Hunter? Desert Elf?

CITY-based characters that practically live in the DESERT?  :shock:

Uh...all three of those concepts can be played using the Ranger guild.  A Ranger who acts as a Caravan Guide.  A ranger who is a nomad.  A ranger desert elf....

I don't see why a SUBGUILD, virtually a hobby, should give someone such exceptional talent with dealing with sandstorms.

[Ghost]

I think there is an exaggeration on the harshness of the storm code here.

Everyone can deal with the storms.. EVERYONE that is.

Just that, if the storm is blinging, it is going over your head.

And rangers can deal with blinding storms.

That is all about it.  Just that you can't walk straight in blinding storms does not mean you can't live in the desert.  And the only bonus of ranger is that, he can go through the blinding ones.  So the desert is not a "ranger alone" world.  But you are not as CONFIDENT as the ranger (for the fear of a blinding storm might come over you).  And that is how it is supposed to be.

[EvilRoeSlade]

My main complaint is this: When you happen to get stuck in one and don't have 15RL hours to wait for it to pass over, it sucks ass.

I agree completely.  I don't have that kind of time either.

In my opinion, it would be MUCH better if storms instantly killed you unless you've been preparing to withstand them for the last two hours because your ranger buddy told you that one was coming.

[Delirium]

A ranger can be a merchant, but a merchant can't be a ranger.

Anybody can be a merchant, but all will have large disadvantages compared to the class merchant in that field.

A ranger can be a warrior, but a warrior can't navigate int he wind.

I really, really want to laugh every time I hear someone claim that a ranger can be a warrior. It's absolute bullshit. Just because a ranger may branch certain skills doesn't mean that their strengths will EVER be the same as a "class warrior", or even approach it.  Now, can a ranger roleplay the life of a (sub-par) warrior? Hell yeah, so can a burglar or a pickpocket.

A ranger can be an assasin in the sands, but an assasin can't.

No arguments there. Desert assassin vs city assassin. Rangers get their feet yanked out from under them in the city.

A ranger can be a pick-pocket with the subguild. A thief can't be a ranger though.

An extremely SHITTY pickpocket, sure.

A ranger can be a burglar of wagons, but a burglar can't.

... Huh?

Am I wrong in my thinking?

I would say yes and no. Class and code-wise you are very wrong. Roleplay wise, it is definitely possible for any class to try and be whatever they want. They just won't necessarily be any good at it.

[drunkendwarf]

In my opinion, it would be MUCH better if storms instantly killed you unless you've been preparing to withstand them for the last two hours because your ranger buddy told you that one was coming.

Yes, because only rangers can ever read the weather. No one else who's been living on Zalanthas has ever had to deal with a storm, or knows when one is coming. Let's just start slaying PC's for no apparent reason...that'd be fun too, wouldn't it? (Don't get any ideas, Nessalin.)

Okay, I'll make it even more simple. Magickers get hosed by the new storm code. Anything else you'd like to play in the wilds...make it a ranger, and pick a subguild to suit (still doesn't sound like much fun to me...but whatever.) Magickers simply don't have this option. Why is it that magickers are now, code wise, strictly city based? Why can't there be magickers who are able to deal with a storm, because they've spent their entire lives in the wilds? Now, code wise...they'd have to be rangers...which means they can't be magickers. I've much more of a complaint than this...but we'll stick with this one for now. Why can't there just be a subguild that either allows people to quit out, or allows a SOLO character to navigate through a storm. I don't see how this means I'm going to 'rule the desert' as people keep stating...just means I can get by on my own.  I still can't sneak, hide, hunt, poison, oh....and FORAGE FOR FOOD AND WATER in the wilds. I can just move through a storm.

I'm still obviously not alone in thinking the storm code needs tweaking...I'd once again like to refer people to the poll results.

[drunkendwarf]

Uh...all three of those concepts can be played using the Ranger guild. A Ranger who acts as a Caravan Guide. A ranger who is a nomad. A ranger desert elf....

And why couldn't a 'ranger' be played by any other class in the game? What's your point here?
I think the storm code is forcing people to think WAY too OOC, when it comes to guilds.  Whatever happened to encouraging someone to choose a merchant, and play an explorer? To choose a pickpocket, and play a caravan guide? To choose a warrior, and play a hunter? Nah...now, you gotta be a ranger to effectively play any of these. How is this reflecting realism?
'Well, in order to play my explorer, I've just gotta put up with this set of skills....guess I just have to learn to like these skills.'

Wee, sounds like fun.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You know, in real life, people stick to what they know how to do. So very rarely indeed do they venture off into other arenas. So very rarely indeed are there jacks-of-all-trades.

In this light, the regimentary classification of the class/subclass reinforces roleplay.

[Xygax]

Some quick points:

a)  Non-rangers don't get lost on EVERY move through a sandstorm.  They have a low percentage (further lowered by stats, in some cases) of getting lost, while rangers have 0.

b)  Critters (tembo, raptors, etc.) do lose their way in storms, just as PCs do.  I've seen hapless players saved by this (without knowing they were saved by it) many times.  Yeah, they'll hunt you mercilessly, and yeah they have a good chance of finding you, but they DO get blown off-course.

c)  Gear:  Yes, I think gear like sunslits etc., should help somewhat with storms.  They don't currently because the technology and the data simply aren't in place yet.  They will never be 100% effective.

d)  I tend to agree that the weather code, in general, sometimes doesn't make a lot of sense.  It is zone-based, and so the boundaries aren't as soft or nebulous as they ought to be, storms don't slowly roll across the world or occupy a region of space in a way that necessarily makes sense...  the problem is that doing a more dynamic storm system like that isn't trivial.

e)  Roads should help, being in a city should help.  Yes, I just haven't gotten around to it, yet.  However, the roads change will NOT make it 100% safe to wander the desert, as long as you stay on the road...  it will make some difference in how often people get lost, but it may not be a difference you're tangibly aware of.  A lot of people didn't notice at all when the overall chance of getting lost was tuned down, and those same people probably won't notice when the roads get easier to follow.

f) Some magickers already have techniques for evading this effect.  'Nuff said.

-- X

[Agent_137 (2L2L)]

Hrm. An old debate.

I haven't seen any storms come up out of nowhere. I've walked into them, but I haven't seen them just suddenly arrive in my room where there wasn't one before. Maybe I've been lucky. Make use of "weather <direction>" command. Of course, if blinding storms do instantly descend on an entire zone with absolutely no warning, then this is a REAL issue that needs to be fixed. I haven't seen it though, so i can't speak on it.

I -have- seen storms last too damn long. I don't care if it's Red Storm or not. Blinding storms that last 3-4 real life days are just too damn long. It saps playability. I like the idea that the stronger the storm, the less time it should exist. Kinda makes sense. Unfortunately, we see storms that last RL days at max level. That's a problem.

So I think the real issue here is the storm code itself. This new "need a ranger to walk right" thing is just highlighting the problem with the storm code.

. . . Oh, wow. Xygax posted as I was typing my response.

And it seems his point D addresses just about everything I had to say. I'll leave you with this:

Yes, I know it isn't trivial. But please don't avoid it just because it's a bitch.

For me, the biggest problem with this game is the poor coding. Combat. Crime. Weather. I see all these great ideas that have trouble manifesting themselves due to code limitations. But don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the current code isn't impressive. Indeed, it's wonderous and forever beyond any capabilities I'll ever have for coding. But that doesn't mean that it should be left alone. Strive for improvement always. I'd rather see superior storm code than see a dozen more echoes in random places. I can imagine zalanthas in my head just fine. Where I need help is the coded aspect.

[Xygax]

For me, the biggest problem with this game is the poor coding. Combat. Crime. Weather.

Sentiments like this warm the cockles of my heart.

I see all these great ideas that have trouble manifesting themselves due to code limitations. But don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the current code isn't impressive. Indeed, it's wonderous and forever beyond any capabilities I'll ever have for coding. But that doesn't mean that it should be left alone. Strive for improvement always. I'd rather see superior storm code than see a dozen more echoes in random places. I can imagine zalanthas in my head just fine. Where I need help is the coded aspect.

Perhaps that's what you'd rather, but one thing is so vastly easier than the other that (using your example) adding room echoes doesn't even require an engine-coder at all, whereas rearchitecting the poorly-coded (to paraphrase your remarks) weather-system does.  These ultra-easy tasks get done partly because they're rewarding for the doer (a new storyteller can add room echoes or other features easily, and be quickly paid back with results), as well as the recipients.  By contrast, larger system changes almost always yield frustration on the part of at least some portion of the player base, in addition to being prone to introduce new, unanticipated and unpredictable bugs.

That doesn't mean that we avoid tackling large changes, and Savak mentioned in another thread a few of the larger systems that HAVE gone in of late (some of which might not have been possible without the stability and performance improvements I've been boorishly indulging myself with).

Here's the thing...  as an engine coder, I tend on occasion to be selfish:  I take on pet projects which I percieve have the most benefit for the MUD without tremendous regard for your (and I mean you, Agent_137, not the generic, all-encompassing you, here) priorities.  This usually leads me to greedily focus on things like reducing our CPU load from 100% of one of ginka's 4 CPUs to an average of about 7-10%, so that perceived system lag has been reduced to near-zero (outside of whatever network hardware issues lay between ginka and the average user's home machine).  Or other inconsiderate tasks like improving the MUD's stability to the degree that, of late, the complaints have been that it doesn't crash _enough_.

Other coders have other interests and will tackle systems that are more visible to the player-base.  I delved into the weather/losing-your-way code for only a moment because I discovered an old logic error as I was auditing the codebase.  The original code was written literally years ago (perhaps as many as 8, I recall having lost my way in the desert as a newbie), and was accidentally disabled by a misplaced boolean operand (or a wild night of sprinkling parantheses through the movement code, I could never tell which).  Then I did some work to further tweak the system to take a bit of the original edge off of it, as well as squash a few other bugs revealed by re-enabling it.  I've committed to some other work with it such as the tasks I mention above, but with RL eating into my free time of late, I haven't had a chance to tackle them yet.

Sorry about the poor code,
 Xygax

[wizturbo]

No complaints here Xygax, keep on rocking.

Some players don't see the big picture, and I hope you guys who do so much hard work don't feel discouraged by their ignorant comments.

*lifts a bottle of beer to the imms*  

You all rock.

[amoeba]

No complaints here Xygax, keep on rocking.

Just remember there are those of us who appreciate the work and know how much effort goes into it that is never seen by the users, although they would miss it if it was gone.

--Cheers.

[Maybe42or54]

Xygax, I hate you.

I mean, If I don't respond to someone in five minutes, I can't blame it on lag anymore.
Anyways, I don't really hate you, but I have been loving the new additions.

[joyofdiscord]

Word.  Of all the muds I have played, which are many, Arm has far and away the most responsive, involved, hard-working staff I've ever seen.  Unfortunately, I also notice that, in comparison to other MUDs, Arm has an immense quantity of non-constructive criticism, complaining, demanding, and backseat IMMing on the part of players.  I can't help but wonder, with some regret, if the two aren't related.  I guess you give us an inch and we want a mile.  Or, more accurately, you give us a mile and we want a league.   But yes, there -are- players who properly appreciate the kind of work going into a game like this.  We're not as noisy, I guess, since we tend to avoid the "Complain about latest feature" threads.

[Larrath]

I really don't think Agent meant to say that Arm has badly written code or that the coders are anything other than kickass and awesome.

It is a fact, as far as I'm aware, that the weather code is regarded as a code behemoth that is difficult, frustrating and possibly even risky to approach.
I don't think that anyone is to blame for this, and I think that Agent is with me on this.


The entire Armageddon playerbase rocks, everyone from the lowliest twink (who'd be regarded as a master roleplayer in any other RP MUD, mind you) to the scariest soul-eating immortal.
Gooooo coders!


Now what was this thread about again?