Reboots more than once a week?

[Someone]

Back in the day the game used to crash a lot more. Now, it hardly ever crashes. I think it would help spur a lot more RP and commerce if the game was rebooted at least twice a week - once on the regular time, and once about halfway through the week, maybe Wednesday.

[creeper386]

Just so people can rush to the stores and sell this items twice a week instead of just once?


Great idea!

Sure not everyone does this. But enough people do that it is a pain for those that don't. No need to let the people that do this even more of a chance to get rich.


Creeper

[Bestatte]

How about - once on Saturday the usual bootup time, and another day during the week in the middle of the day?

That would give OTHER people a chance to make the mad dash, instead of it always being the same people who all happen to be available 30 seconds after saturday bootup.

[Agent_137]

Yea, make it just a reboot, not downtime.

Honestly, while there are some items that are a mad dash, other ones do well with two reboots.

[moab]

Or - all items that NPC merchants purchase can remain on the merchant after rebooting - allowing some one to sell something to the NPC on Saturday AM and someone else buying it on Sunday.

As for merchants "filling up" we simply need to have them slowly change their items in inventory to account for VNPC population purchases and other losses (crafting, warehousing....whatever).  

This would go a long way in helping develop the virtual economy.

Having NPC merchants loose their inventory over a reboot is a serious blow to realistic economy and sets up a situation that is ripe for "merchant abuse" if we want to use such a strong word.

[Halaster]

I think it would help spur a lot more RP and commerce ...

How would it spur a lot more Roleplaying?

[Cenghiz]

I did not understand what the aim is going to be.. When someone can sell only five planks/hides/chitin/women to a NPC merchant, he is forced to find a PC merchant instead. That causes interaction.. Why is the interaction increasing when we raise the number to 10?
I'm an off-peak player. I can't sell anything but something rare to a NPC merchant because the quatas are nearly always filled before I can log in in Sunday morning. This forces me to interact with other players and sell to them instead to earn. This forces me to feel IC fury against other rich folks with the same skills and plan their death to become a monopoly. But this does not force me to interact less to other folks.
If the game's reset for a second time, I'm nearly sure nothing will change for me. Just some peak players will have the chance for a second rush. And they won't interact to do this second rush.. It's going to be something like 'enter xxx;offer yyy;barter;offer yyy;barter;offer yyy;barter.....'
So what?

[Sanvean]

Given that reboots disrupt play, I'd rather keep them to a minimum.  So far I haven't seen any concrete, specific reasons why this approach should be rethought.  If anything, they end up detracting from roleplay by doing things like resetting drop descriptions back to their default.

[deinol]

Rebooting to fix economic issues is like cutting off your foot to cure athletes foot. Ok, not quite, but it has a lot more effect than simply reseting the shops.

Maybe I'm in the wrong economic bracket, but the shops that buy the stuff I'm selling were still empty midweek.

I do think that PC's should have a fighting chance to survive based purely on code. On the other hand, it's a lot easier to do this than it used to be. If your a poor character, don't be proud, do what it takes to survive.

The economy of the MUD shouldn't have to rely on reboots to work. I sort of like the idea that stuff should be randomly purchased from shops. Perhaps an average of 1 item per RL day per shop.

And those of you that aren't poor, be willing to hire someone for random stuff. Everytime I've asked about jobs, the only offers I seem to hear are for soldiers. Find stupid stuff for them to do, like running errands, or just carrying stuff. Be creative.

Anyway, while I'd like to see some improvements to the economy, I think if anything should be done it should be done more elegantly than a hard reboot.

[fearwig]

As for merchants "filling up" we simply need to have them slowly change their items in inventory to account for VNPC population purchases and other losses (crafting, warehousing....whatever).  

This would go a long way in helping develop the virtual economy.

Having NPC merchants loose their inventory over a reboot is a serious blow to realistic economy and sets up a situation that is ripe for "merchant abuse" if we want to use such a strong word.

Bingo! If you want to end merchant abuse, let's make merchants work! Everyone -should- be selling every useful item they own in market. If you think that's overpowered, make those items worth less (scrab legs, for instance). But make sure they don't go in the trash heap. That is NOT Zalanthan.

PC interaction should not always be the goal for every single thing in the game. When it happens, great--when you have to regard PCs as absolutely different from NPCs because of it, that is detracting greatly from the experience and atmosphere of the game. PCs don't always have the same needs for the same items that NPCs do, because NPCs deal to VNPCs, et cetera. Or they damn well should.

Trying to sell a lot of items that are popular in the NPC markets will get you laaaaughed at if you sit in a tavern trying to sell them. "Hey, anybody want to buy twenty scrab mandibles? No?"

PC interaction is a great part of the game, but making gameplay dependent upon it really hurts that gameplay. A character should be able to survive (survive, not thrive) self-reliantly on the NPC market in a realistic way. Not a way where NPCs buy 10 scrab pincers and no more and never, ever sell them until one time of the month when ZAP they all disappear! It's just silly. I think a fix to this kind of problem should be first priority.

[Someone again]

There are a lot of things that reboots open up: hunting, burglary, pickpocketing opportunities for newbies to start out and survive with, poisons, plantlife, and, of course, NPC merchants to sell things too.

I read that Tuluki thieves thread and it does seem like its asking too much to force people to develop their burgling skills once per RL week. That just discourages people playing the game. What's more, those opportunities are certainly limited to the people who get there first. *shrugs*

I know, some people will call me a twink, but on Armageddon, skills do matter. And the satisfaction that you get from knowing that your skills are increasing can keep you going when the game is getting boring. Most of the action and RP that thieves and hunters get revolves around using their skills at least somewhat.

(The much lauded "pure RP" role in which an interesting character is developed for its own literary sake is very rarely seen on Armageddon, in my experience. That's because it is, quite frankly, not very workable or rewarded by the game mechanics and game environment. Instead I just see a lot of powergaming - whether it's social in-game, out-of-game, codewise, or whatever else. The Will to Power is the fundamental drive of all living things, after all. This is just a little pre-rebuttal to cries of twinkishness.)

[Larrath]

I had a lot of fun playing an aide once, and he lived around three months or so, I think.  The two skills he ever really used were Listen and Cooking.
Most aides and bards and merchants and noble (not crafters) that I know of rely on 'pure roleplay' instead of skills.  I think that this is a nice amount of people.

Having a second reboot -will- help sell more junk every week, but it will also promote more spam-hunting and spam-crafting/selling.  Most objects and NPCs on Arm are finite because the world is finite, and it serves as a reminder.
Also, I'm pretty certain that the item-duplicate limits on the NPC merchants are there for a reason.

[moab]

I think it would help spur a lot more RP and commerce ...

How would it spur a lot more Roleplaying?

It will generate rp because people wont have the OOC urge to rush to the store and fill up the merchants to make this week's coin.  It will encourage people to play their characters more realistically.  Collect a few plants, (for example) sell a few plants, go do some other stuff for awhile.

There is no need to make sure you have a ton of stuff to sell on Saturday night because you'll be able to sell some of it most any time.

This frees people up to focus on other things - like role-play.

Edit to add:

But maybe this is an imaginary problem.  I don't seem to have problems selling things - though once in awhile a merchant is out of coin.  Eh. Realistic enough.

[Forest Junkie]

It will generate rp because people wont have the OOC urge to rush to the store and fill up the merchants to make this week's coin.  It will encourage people to play their characters more realistically.  Collect a few plants, (for example) sell a few plants, go do some other stuff for awhile.

I disagree. It's quite possible that people will have even -more- of an OOC urge to rush to the store as soon as a second reboot occurs, so they can make double what they normally would per RL week.

I know of specific items in this game that can give over one hundred 'sid per item. I feel that the same players are going back to the spawn points each week, snatching these special items and selling them for the sole purpose of racking up an unrealistic amount of coins to gain that "phat lo0t". If a second reboot was added to the weekly one currently in progress, I could almost guarantee these players would take unfair advantage of the special privelege by snatching these things as soon as the game reboots that second time.

I would be more in favor of a system where shops randomly "sold" a certain amount of items to clear up space for more things to be sold. This would be a fair deal, in my opinion.

Two weekly reboots: The twinks will rule this game even more.

A weekly randomization of items disappearing in "sell lists": Would promote more trade and action.

With that said, I could live without the second idea. The first one is just not going to work though, because some people don't know how to use their common sense.

[Ghost]

I would be more in favor of a system where shops randomly "sold" a certain amount of items to clear up space for more things to be sold. This would be a fair deal, in my opinion.

A weekly randomization of items disappearing in "sell lists": Would promote more trade and action.

[moab]

Forest Junkie>


Just to make it clear, I'm not advocating for multiple reboots.  That's not going to fix the problem.

The problem which is how do we simulate the economy more realistically and thus increase RP would be changing how the merchants hadnle their inventory.

[Bestatte]

I know this has been addressed in the past. I don't want to try a search though - someone else can do it if they're in the mood. It might be so old that it's not even on the search radar.

Anyway..here's the idea some of us were trying to flesh out then:

Issues:

1) The mad dash after reboot to sell off 5 of everything because that's all the merchant will buy.
2) The frustration of everyone else who has those items to sell, because none of the NPCs have any room left to buy more all week long.
3) Trying to sell animal guts to PCs is difficult, at best. Impossible, at worst.
4) Most people who buy jewelry don't WANT a granite ring, but if that's all you know how to make, the only way you can earn sids from it is to sell it to an NPC. That NPC is usually filled with 5 of them within an hour or two after Saturday bootup.
5) The desire to encourage PC-to-PC trade rather than rely on NPC trade doesn't currently outweigh the need for crafters and foragers and skinners to earn enough sids to eat and drink.

Possible solution:

Rewrite the list code in the shops. Allow it so that ALL PCs can sell 2 of whatever, to whoever, every week or between game bootup (if the game crashes for example). Get rid of the max capacity per item on the NPCs altogether..they can buy up to 2 of each from every PC in the game, per week. If that seems like too much, then make it 1 of each.

What this solves:

1) It gives crafters and foragers and skinners the opportunity to unload some of their stuff to NPCs.
2) It DIScourages overhunting/foraging/skinning/crafting among people who rely on NPCs for their sids.
3) It ENcourages RP between other PCs, because sure - you can sell one to each of 4 different shops, but if you have six or seven, you need to find something to do with the leftovers.
4) It ENcourages potential buyers to rely more on PC sellers than the NPC merchants.
5) It completely removes the mad dash after reboot from the equation.
6) It's more realistic to have an NPC say "You've sold me your quota for the week - I know I can get a kajillion more from other people, so I'm gonna do exactly that. Now shoo before you start to annoy me." than it is for the NPC to say "I have exactly five, I know I won't need more than that all week long, no matter what anyone else has to say about it. Go away now."

This must be implemented along with random removal of things from the NPC's list throughout the week. Maybe those granite rings are no longer available for sale at the shop until next bootup - so on the offchance that a PC actually wants to buy it, he has no choice but to look for another PC.

ICly you can assume that the NPC merchant just had a huge order from some unnamed tribe for granite rings, or House Fale wants to give away door prizes for their latest orgy. Whatever - you can make up a million explanations that make perfect sense, if you need to.

[Larrath]

I'm not completely in favor of this idea.  I think it will result with people asking other people to sell their goods for them in trade of a tiny portion, which will result in myself going berserk and killing somebody.

[Bestatte]

Well..think about that for a sec..

How many people do you know, who would give up their quota to someone else, in exchange for less than the shop would give them if they were selling their own stuff?

Okay - you've got a number in mind..

Now of those people, how many people do you know, who your character would have a chance to interact with?

Okay - we're narrowing it down.

Now of those people, how many do you know, whose character would agree to do this specifically for YOUR character?

And of THOSE people, how many would your character WANT to interact with, if given the chance?

Now turn that into a really neato plotline to promote roleplay between all "people who would give up their quotas" and "people who need people to give up their quotas".

See, even that problem can be turned into some fun RP.

[Anonymous]

Bestatte is cool, except for

6) It's more realistic to have an NPC say "You've sold me your quota for the week - I know I can get a kajillion more from other people, so I'm gonna do exactly that. Now shoo before you start to annoy me." than it is for the NPC to say "I have exactly five, I know I won't need more than that all week long, no matter what anyone else has to say about it. Go away now."

I don't see where it's realistic. Merchant knows how many of certain goods he needs and should not bother with quotas nor care if a single person or group provides those numbers. Let's say it's just more playable instead of realistic, which is cool too.

As for a whole mechanic of making NPC trade more playable, well, I'd suggest to keep everything the way it is, except for implementation of scrip that will deduct something from a counter of already sold goods. I'd say -1 for every 6 RL hours, so everyone would have a chance to sell something, even losers who don't play during those golden hours after bootup. That should be easier than keeping track of all goods sold by all PCs in all shops.

[Angela Christine]

Forget commerce, a mid-week or late-week second boot would clear up those almost-buggy blinding sandstorms that seem to get to a certain point of awfulness and then linger in a place for days.  A reboot doesn't guarentee Good weather, but it does reduce the impossible weather for a little while and that allows groups of legitimate buisnessmen to get out and about.  That stoneworker can get out and find the last five stones he needs to fill an order for a complete set of izdari pieces, those Salaar hunters can go look for an anakore so that their boss can fill an order for anakore-clawed gloves, those world weary smugglers can finally see well enough to smuggle spice between Red Storm  and 'nak, adventuresome or addicted 'Nakkies can go to Red Storm or Luir's to get wasted, the Byn can finally see well enough to escort their client half way accross the known world without falling off the shieldwall, and when that client gets halfway accross the known world (under the guise of a simple traveling merchant or bard) she can report the results of her spying to Templar X and hand over the proof that she has actually been in the Happybottom Estate (the Way is nice, but for an in-depth debriefing and producing evidence you need a face-to-face meeting).  

Some bad weather is good, it emphasizes the Harshness of the world, it forces relentless spam hunters and spam foragers to occasionally take a break, and it encourages people to huddle together out of the storm.  But too much bad weather is just discouraging.  If the weather has gotten to the point that it is blinding durring the day, you know OOCly that it probably won't clear up to tollerable levels for weeks ICly, so your obvious choices are to roleplay sitting in a tavern complaining about the weather for hour after hour, or go play counterstrike and check in tomorrorw to see if the weather has gotten any better.

I think an unschedualed reboot on Wednesday or Thrusdays (only in weeks where there hasn't been a crash) could be a good thing.  Six and a half days between reboots seems long to me.

[Cenghiz]

Just an idea...

If we really do want to get rid of spam-sellersü let the merchants keep their inventory. Let a random item get lost every day. SO;

1. More people will be looking for Salarr, Kadius and freelance crafters because the table/sword/wagon/concubine is no longer for sale. It simply disappeared and you now know it won't come back.. Off-peak players won't be hurt badly because usually every crafter makes a good amount of items and some will be sold back.

2. Spam-sellers will still exist, they always do, but they won't bother rushing to the shops after every reboot. They will be forced to do something else after they're VERY HEAVY.

3. Crafting will be valued again. Merchants should be a little bit more valuable after they became the only masterworkers who can craft something special. Let every crafter be more valuable for his-her organization because they can craft. (Still, this may overbalance the game.. I don't know.. I wouldn't like to see 12 warrior/armorcrafter chars in Gaj)

Thanks to the one who mentioned this idea. I was too lazy to scroll back and quote from you. Sorry.

[Praetorian]

Oddly enough, I agree with Angela.  The shop issue I don't think is that big of a deal - more frequent reboots just so people can sell things makes the rich richer, and still screws those that happen to not be able to be on -right- when the reboot hits.  In other words, the fanatical players profit unrealistically and the not-so-fanatical wouldn't notice much difference.

However, the weather issue bothers me.
Don't get me wrong, I love the wind...but when I find myself stumbling around for 20 minutes because I can't reach the north road, which I can see south of me in the room description, then thats leaning more toward annoyability than playability.  The times I would most often want to go out and frolic, I get a short ways and discover that ooops, the winds are too strong...sands are up, I can't go anywhere, and turn back around.  If anyone says, 'oh well take a ranger with you', you need to understand that not everyone is able to muster a ranger to serve as a tour guide at all times.
As a personal opinion I feel the weather issue has hampered playability more than it has enhanced realism.  To reflect this, someone should do a statistical study of the who list, compare players in game at the same time of the week when its windy, or rather -stormy- and when it isn't.  I suspect you will find a significant percentage drop due to players that would rather not be forced to just sit around, and go do something else outside of the game with their time.
Alternatively, perhaps enable certain in-game means to at least -help- those players that navigate strong winds with blowing sand.  Perhaps sunslits which shield the eyes, would reduce chances of getting 'lost', or perhaps certain spells could achieve that (for the magickerly type), or ...
something like that.  *edited to protect the innocent*

[fearwig]

I see the point of the administration, here, and I think it's a seriously flawed way to look at the game. I'm not trying to be difficult, that's just all I can infer from this situation.

The concept of "spam selling" is *derived* from the fact that there is an item limit. If you think those items are useful, make them useful. What you're doing here is turning something that would never, EVER be tossed into a trash heap in real Zalanthas into something that has to be, because there's no worth in it unless you arrive at the NPC at an OOCly determined point.

If these things aren't that valuable ICly, make them worth less. Or make the NPC buy each one for successively less, but without a limit until they become near-worthless. You shouldn't have a 10-20sid item lying in a trash heap, or getting junked, when 10-20 sids can be life or death to a character. That's just bad design.

The sale system is screwy, at the moment, I think that should be pretty clear. Having to rely on OOC events to pursue your IC character's goals is foolish. Either set up a VNPC "sale" system, where the merchant will lose some of the items over the course of the week, or figure something else out. If you think it's fixed the way it is, I can't see how you're thinking it through. There should not be anything produced by hunters that goes to waste in Zalanthas, if things are as rough as they seem to be. If the item has practical use ICly, give it practical use according to code. If the item doesn't, well hell, don't make it worth anything to a merchant to begin with. But don't enforce arbitrary limits, that just ruins the atmosphere and fluidity of the game.

I don't mind that this stuff simply hasn't been coded fully or finished yet. If that's the case, great. But I can't see how someone could look at the merchant system and say "That works just fine." at the moment. If you have something to sell on Zalanthas, you damn well sell it--you don't keep it lying around. There's nothing "spammy" about selling what you collect for a living.


More reboots is obviously not the answer, but leaving it be isn't really the answer either, is it?

[Forest Junkie]

If these things aren't that valuable ICly, make them worth less. Or make the NPC buy each one for successively less, but without a limit until they become near-worthless.

Neat idea.

You shouldn't have a 10-20sid item lying in a trash heap, or getting junked, when 10-20 sids can be life or death to a character. That's just bad design.

I agree you shouldn't have things like that junked. I disagree with your assessment that this problem is due to bad design though. I think it was designed to allow players to use their discretion when selling items. It has become apparent that we as players are not.

There's nothing "spammy" about selling what you collect for a living.

The hell there isn't. If your pc goes to the traders directly after reboot and sells exactly FIVE of everything in their inventory, you are being disrespectful to the other players on this mud who are trying to make a living. Granted, it can be hard to survive if you don't sell your items, but please try to use discretion when selling items to the merchants in the cities. I myself have been guilty of this in the past, and try my best to remedy such actions to allow a more fair playing field for everyone else.