Helping New Players OOCly

[Bestatte]

I've come across several situations where I'd see players in need of help (in particular, when they ask for it, rather than noticing that they need it).

Often, if they have their AIM or MSN listed on the GDB, I'll contact them and ask if they'd like my help. I make SURE to let them know I'm not an official helper...I think that's pretty important.

That's what I wanted to mention here. I know there are lots of people who want to help others, but for whatever reason, aren't on the helper list.  I want to mention my views on this, and see if there are other views..maybe some of what I say will be helpful, to people who like to help, who aren't helpers.

1) Make sure you let the new player know you're NOT a helper, and give them the opportunity to turn down your attempt to assist.

2) Don't tell them about any current plotlines, or current characters. Make up things that never actually happened, but COULD easily happen, when you need to give examples of game play (syntax, commands, politics, etc.).

3) Give no-name examples of LONG-PAST characters of yours, if you feel it will help. I mean long-past, as in, no character currently existing in the game would have even the vaguest notion of who your character was, nor would they care.

4) Don't give out information about skills that branch off other skills. When in doubt, check the helpfile for a guild yourself, and if the new player needs just a nudge to understand about something that branches off something else, use the helpfile to determine whether or not it's appropriate to mention it.

4a) Do NOT tell a new player which skill they need to boost, in order to branch the skill they're asking about. It should be enough to let them know that yes, Skin-Peeling does eventually branch from the skill list on the Torturer guild.

5) Encourage them to try simple beginnings, and explain why it's better to start small and work your way up to bigger and better.

6) Encourage them to read the docs and use the helpers.

7) If they ask you questions about things that aren't appropriate to ask, be patient with them, but firmly suggest they contact mud for more information on that topic.

If you feel they're just fishing for "secret information," let them know their questions are inappropriate, tell them why, and ask them to stop. If they don't stop, block them from your buddy list and inform mud - since they might try the same with other people.

[flurry]

Bestatte,

I think that looks like really good advice.  

One part of this I wasn't sure about, though.

4a) Do NOT tell a new player which skill they need to boost, in order to branch the skill they're asking about. It should be enough to let them know that yes, Skin-Peeling does eventually branch from the skill list on the Torturer guild.

I might be wrong, but I thought this wasn't considered okay.   Granted much of that can be reasonably inferred from the appropriate help file, but the help files don't have skill lists.   I think those kinds of questions are better left unanswered.

[anjuli]

What is the point of #1?  They can still turn down a "helper's" attempt to help.  To my mind, any one attempting to help is a helper.

Is the point of the help to assist the player or to advertise the helper list?  If the former, then just help the player.  If the latter, point them to the website.

That said - I don't ever make contact with players outside the game unless they contact me first.

#3 is pointless and self-serving.  There is never need to discuss past characters.


Other than that, the ideas are good.

[Bestatte]

The point of #1, is that since some players -do- make first contact with the new player looking for help...

And since the staff already has a sanctioned list of "official" helpers who they can keep track of...

and since the staff can't keep track of non-helpers who help outside the game..

it's important that the new player is informed that you aren't helping in an official capacity, and that there ARE helpers who can do that. The new player (in my opinion) should have the right to make an informed decision as to who they want helping them.

As for point #3, we only have our own experiences to go by. In the world of Armageddon, this means we only have our experience playing our own characters to reference when helping people on things that require a reference point.

So when a new player doesn't understand how plotlines can be started, run, and finished entirely by other players without IMM intervention..

and if you were involved in one such plotline...and that involvement gives a clear answer to the new player's concern, then I see no reason why you should hem and haw and pretend you don't know, just for the sake of preventing people from thinking you have a big ego.

If someone wants a clear example and you have one from your own experience, I say, give it. Unless it's current, or unless there's even a slight chance that a character still living in the world might have been involved in it or know your long-gone character.

It has nothing to do with ego or being self-serving. It has everything to do with trying to illustrate a situation when the new player needs specific examples.

[Bestatte]

Bestatte,

I think that looks like really good advice.  

One part of this I wasn't sure about, though.

4a) Do NOT tell a new player which skill they need to boost, in order to branch the skill they're asking about. It should be enough to let them know that yes, Skin-Peeling does eventually branch from the skill list on the Torturer guild.

I might be wrong, but I thought this wasn't considered okay.   Granted much of that can be reasonably inferred from the appropriate help file, but the help files don't have skill lists.   I think those kinds of questions are better left unanswered.

If the help file says "the torturer can, through much experimentation, glean knowledge about the anatomy and learn to extract skin from their victim"...

Then it's *public knowledge and not IC info* that Skin-Peeling branches from *something* in the Torterer guild. I see no reason to tell a new player to "find out IC" something that's publicized on the OOC help files. The help files are written in paragraph form, not in list form. So sometimes information from them isn't blatant - but it's still there. And new players can be overwhelmed by the vast amount of information available and simply might miss something, or not understand what it means...

That made-up thing I just wrote says "learn to extract skin" but doesn't say "SKILL SKIN_PEELING"

Someone who isn't speaking English as a first language might not understand these two things mean the same thing. Someone who is new to the whole mudding world might not even have an understanding on how to look through help files.

So I see nothing wrong with letting the new player know that yes, this means that skin-peeling is a skill, and it branches from the torturer guild. Since - it says so right there in the help file, though not in the exact same words.

[flurry]

Well I just disagree with that completely.  If it were meant for guild and subguild skills to be out in the open, why wouldn't they be listed instead of or in addition to the paragraphs?  

IMHO, it's just as easy, and more appropriate, to say "here's the link to the help file - it hints at what the guild skills are, but by design it doesn't come right out and tell you.  So, neither will I."

[Bestatte]

I guess I'm not wording it right..so thanks for not understanding - it helps me flesh this out.

Here's an example:

One of the guild paragraphs says something about how eventually you can learn how to parry oncoming attacks.

A new player might not know that "parry" is an actual skill. When their character first shows up in the game he won't have parry, since - it's a branched skill, not one that shows up on the skill list upon first logging in.

If that player is new to the game, he might not understand what that means, and might ask. So you can tell him "It's an actual skill, and the guild info says you'll eventually get it."

If you don't tell them, they might think it just means they'll get some major defense boost, and never know that it's an actual skill at all. Depends on what game they came from, or if they even came from another game or not.

Hopefully this helps Flurry understand what I mean.

[Trenidor]

Here's a typical chat with a newbie:

them: Can I as you a question about arm?
Me: Sure what's your question?
them: I'm trying to ride this animal, but I don't have the ride skill, is it nessicary?
me: No, you can do anything but craft without requiring skills on your skills list, the only thing that will be different is that you can't gain experence at it unless you have the skill. There is a way to 'branch' skills however through other skills.
them: Thanks, I tried mount and it wouldn't work, what am I doing wrong?
me: What message does it give you?
them: You cannot mount a metalic yellow gurth
me: It says what it means...you can't ride that kind of animal. Typically you can ride: Kanks, Inix, Erdlu, and Sunback. There are others, but I'll let you figure out which ones those are. Kanks are the most common animals you can ride.
them: Where can I find one?
me: There's mount sellers in the cities that sell them.
them: where's that?
me: Try wandering around till you notice something to do with mounts, pack animals, smells of mounts and so forth. Try looking around where the market place is (where there's all these people selling stuff)
them: Thanks
them: I found one and I don't have enough money to buy it, what should I Do?
me: If you don't have enough money you're out of luck. You need to find a way to earn more money. Have you considered joining a clan?
them: What's a clan?
me: type 'help clans' into the prompt and it'll tell you more, basically they can teach you what I can't, and they'll find a way to get you money.
them: Alright, I read that, how do I join a clan?
me: Well, the easiest way to do that would be go to the tavern and sit at the bar. When someone sits down start talking to them and then ask them if they know someone who will hire you. Most people will help you out in finding someone to hire you that can teach you what you need to know.
them: alright, thanks.

Blah blah blah.

Stuff like that.

I think if you really want to become a helper email the mud and tell them to add you to the helpers list and supply your name, contact information, and what you are good at helping in.

So really anyone can become a helper, it's not that demanding of a job, and I think it helps the MUD alot in keeping new players playing the game instead of getting frustrated and never playing armageddon again.

[anjuli]

Is there a test to be on the helper list?  No.

Is there any difference in quality of help that someone on the list and someone off the list can give?  No.  It's not list dependent.

The list is - IMO - an aide to the new player and has no other real purpose.

And speaking as a helper I have NEVER contacted a new player, outside of the game, first.  I consider it a violation of that person's privacy.  If they want to add my helper  name and ask me a question, great.

If they post on the GDB asking for help, it's open season.  Period.  Anyone can help.

Are you suggesting that people not on the list should not help or that their help might be less valuable than someone on the list?

What is the difference between an "offical" helper and one that is not?
Nothing.

[Gaare]

Just my two sids:

-After I spent time with new players, I noticed it is better to give very short answers to them and giving them a proper help file link or links in general information page. Giving examples of previous characters.. Try to give unneccesary knowledge for future situations usually does not work any good. Since that's a beauty to for a new player to solve something by his own.

Ex: Instead of saying the Tza'i Byn is north east main bazaar. It is good to tell them to have a look at Allanak Map...

-As a helper it is one's duty to help and answer some questions to other newbies or players. It would be better to be friends, but it is kinda hard to approach one as a friend, it is better to look at the relation (at least at the beginning) with a brief sense of professionalism.

-Giving your IM or mail address in game is a good thing (usually), but trying to teach their steps may sometimes lack of enjoyment of the newbie. By trying to help "too" much, it results with the loss of excitement of discovering the deepness of the game world. Shortly with famous saying: instead of giving fish, it's helper's duty to teach how to catch...

[Xygax]

Is there a test to be on the helper list?  No.

No, but the staff do consider who becomes a helper.

Is there any difference in quality of help that someone on the list and someone off the list can give?  No.  It's not list dependent.

This is incorrect.  One of the reasons we have "approved" helpers is because this statement is catergorically incorrect.  Helpers are people in whom we have confidence that they will be both generally correct, as well as discrete in what they reveal.  If you are not an "approved" helper, please try to avoid portraying yourself as one.  This doesn't mean you can't help introduce new players to the game, but it does mean that you should be forthright with them about your qualifications.

The list is - IMO - an aide to the new player and has no other real purpose.

In this case, I propose that your opinion is incorrect and needs re-evaluation.

And speaking as a helper I have NEVER contacted a new player, outside of the game, first.  I consider it a violation of that person's privacy.  If they want to add my helper  name and ask me a question, great.

This is probably a good policy.

If they post on the GDB asking for help, it's open season.  Period.  Anyone can help.

This is certainly correct, but the people with the word "Helper" beneath their names may rightly recieve more serious consideration from a new player than others.  (And this obviously translates through all of the rankings from Helper, to Legend, to Storyteller, etc.)

Are you suggesting that people not on the list should not help or that their help might be less valuable than someone on the list?

Not necessarily less valuable, but certainly if someone isn't on the "Helper" list, their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.  Or several grains of salt, decreasing to none when you finally hear the words from an Overlord.  

What is the difference between an "offical" helper and one that is not?
Nothing.

I disagree.

-- X

[Bestatte]

I agree 100% with Xygax on every single one of his points, which is why I came up with this thread in the first place, and why the very first point I make when I communicate with a new player is that I am *not* an official helper.

I'd also like to clarify - I never contact new players unless I see them posting a request for help on the GDB, or if we already know each other (like from previous games, if I'm "recruiting" them to play Arm when they state elsewhere that they're looking for a new game to play, for example).

I agree (again) that it isn't appropriate to just pick out new players and start sending them messages if they haven't specifically asked for help.

I would like to ask Xygax (since you're the only IMM who's responded thus far) how he feels about helping new players understand information written in the help files (or other documentation). Some people sincerely have no understanding of the concepts written in the docs, and need clarification on maybe a minor point, or maybe even just a word or phrase (such as the parry example I mentioned previously).

Do you feel that we helping types (official, unofficial, or otherwise) should refer them to the mud account? Or do you feel that it's acceptable in the general sense? Obviously to players who've played awhile, some things would not be acceptable, like further explanations of stuff written in the magicker docs, for instance. So in a case like that you'd tell the player something like - "the information you ask about is available in the game, but only if your character happens to learn it. It's just one of those things best learned in-character."

Also do you (Xygax, or any other staff members or official helpers) have any tips or suggestions for us un-official helper folks, that haven't already been addressed here?

[Kalden]

I do disagree with Xygax a bit(I contacted a few Helpers back in the day and had to look through a few before I found out how analyze worked). I don't see many Helpers helping new players to get situated, either. Maybe they just aren't in 'nak.

Am I the only one who's noticed like six to eight newbies d/cing without quitting around the Gaj, and a few wandering around haplessly?

I've come back from a long break, but I don't really see this as normal. In a way, it's a little jarring - in another way, it's sad. Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between a newbie and someone who can't or is unwilling to learn, though.

[Xygax]

I think it's fine to help new players, and I try to do so myself from time to time (even when I'm not doing so in the role of a staff member, I mean), and this is one of the reasons the helper system was put in place.  If you find yourself helping players a lot and you feel you're good at it, please e-mail the mud asking to be made an official helper.

With that out of the way, should you help people as a non-helper?  Yes, if a) it doesn't interfere with your play or the environment of those around you, b) it doesn't foster or fascilitate inappopriate out-of-character communication (this one is a tough one), and c) if the region the player is discussing is covered by documentation.

Expanding on these:

• Try to avoid having extensive OOC communication in public places.  Draw newbies aside into tavern side-rooms or back-rooms, and work things out there.  Make sure this doesn't interrupt any scene in which you or the newbie are currently participating.  If someone desperately needs a clue RIGHT now (and I do mean RIGHT now; it's an emergency), then perhaps you can use the way or wish up for a staff member to help guide them.  If it is just a matter of someone RPing poorly and you can't find any way to help them or the above methods are ineffective, ICly excuse yourself from the situation (or just walk out, if that's what your character would do) and go elsewhere.  Don't try to instruct new players about the nuances of the game in public locations using OOC.  The very best way to teach nuance is to lead by example.
  
  
• Use the OOC channels provided by the game and the staff where possible, instead of connecting with people with AIM/ICQ/IRC etc.  This will prevent them from immediately becoming immersed in or dependent upon out-of-game OOC channels for aid.  Ideally, a new player's first reaction to confusion over some new thing (and there are lots of new things in our world, and in our game from a technical/interface perspective) should be to consult the help files.  Their second reaction should be to seek an approved helper (who hopefully will need only to reference or clarify a help-file).  Their third reaction should be to e-mail the MUD.  Therefore, if you need to communicate OOCly with a character, the best avenue is a private or secluded room and the OOC command, or to send a comment/critique/etc. to the mud e-mail account, to be forwarded to the other player.  Obviously, if you already know a player outside the game, then that avenue will always be available to you, and it's fine...  but if you don't, then IRC/AIM/ICQ contact presents a real risk of clouding their experience of the world with OOC nonsense.
  
  
• If the topic is covered by the documentation, then please don't exceed the information offered in the documentation.  "The Interrogator class eventually branches the bamboo-under-fingernails, and thumb-screw skills." is a good example of crossing that line -- let the documentation speak for itself.  If it is unclear or incomplete, e-mail the MUD account with a proposed revision, don't unveil something that should be mysterious to a new player.  When I was new, this whole "branching" thing meant nothing to me, and I was pleasantly surprised at attaining a new skill, I didn't expect it.  Don't ruin those surprises for the new players.  If they insist on an answer, ask them to e-mail the mud account.  If the question regards syntax then have at it.  This is also a good time to send help-file amendments to the mud account, though, since syntax should be clear from the helpfile.
  

Maybe some other staff will chime in on this, as I'm fresh out of thoughts for the time being...

-- X

[Marauder Moe]

I'm not sure how you would see helpers doing thier job anyway.  Most of what they do is through PM/IM/email I think.  Quitting is just one of many many things a new player has to learn, anyway.

On a side note: maybe there should be some sort of message displayed when you reconnect to a character, something to help newbies out a bit.  I wouldn't be suprised if most of them didn't even know their characters had been sitting in the world all that time.

[flurry]

Radioactive Age -

I really really think that's the wrong approach.  I think there is a lot to be said for learning about the game's mysteries on your own and learning from your own mistakes.

On top of that, if I understand your post and the rules correctly, it sounds like you may be breaking the rules.  I remember you posted on another thread about wanting to have more karma, and I would gently suggest that this kind of thing could stand in the way of that.

Of course this is just one player's opinion.  

EDIT:  After rereading my first attempt, I didn't really like the way it came out.

[fearwig]

It seems to me that there are things which appear IC which would actually be known to virtually anyone from childhood, having lived in Allanak or Tuluk or really wherever. If someone has lived in Allanak for 30 years and doesn't know where the bazaar is, well, there's a problem yes?

I am going to play it safe and say that a helper should be the one to answer questions like that OOCly, as they are technically IC. But I don't feel awful if I happen to let slip something that should be totally apparent to anyone ICly, even though it's too specific to be in the helpfiles. The only caution there is that you have to really watch what kind of stuff you let fall under that catch-all.

Or maybe I'm taking too much liberty, who knows? I've never felt like I was breaking the rules when a new player asks me on AIM why the 'Nak gates are closed, or something along those lines, given that his character is a Nakki. I think it's pretty obvious that his character should know that without having to seem the fool ICly. It helps to bridge the newbie-player-experienced-character gap, as long as you do it with the utmost respect for the game.

Any exposure of IC information beyond what should be readily obvious to a native of the city in question is illegal and should be.

But still, for all I know maybe I am taking too many liberties.

[Vanth]

For those experienced players with decent account notes, who wish to assist newbies, I would seriously recommend becomeing a Helper.  It's good for newbies, it's good for oldbies, and it helps the game.  Increase your victim pool.  Volunteer. Email mud@armageddon.org to do so.

[Ghost]

Here is an example. I made an old old man PC. Within his background he was a poison specialist. And I asked, "what skill does poison branch from? And no one would tell me...... That character died before I could even find out. I found myself trying to train every skill inorder to get the one skill to be able to play my character according to his background. If some one would hae just told me, I woulda just played the game with virtual poisons till it branched. Geeesh! But he died before the skill branched. And to this day, I still do not know what the hell poison branches from. And I just have to ask, "WHAT IS THE BIG FUCKING SECRET?" "HOW WOULD KNOWING WHAT SKILL BRANCHES INTO WHAT CHANGE ANYTHING?" and if it did change somthing, "HOW WOULD IT RUIN THE RP?" people are gonna try to max skills nomatter what you do. SO MAKING IT HARD FOR EVERYONE ELSE TO PLAY THE GAME IS A BAD IDEA!

I think...
If it was something essential for the character, (like his background/life dependent on it) You could trade some skill via Staff intervention.

Say, one or two of the skills gets removed from your skill list, and you get the one you need.

Or.. You RP out IG practicing it, and ask the staff to add it.

I dont know, but branching it is not the only solution.

[Anonymous]

EDIT:  After rereading my first attempt, I didn't really like the way it came out.

How very nice of you. Yes, I like second edition better. I too can post something in response without getting myself banned from GDB now.

IMO, while Radioactive Age goes somewhat to extreme, his points stand absolutely true:

As a newb there were so many times that I would just -wish- for at least -one- person to tell me somthing. I didn't want to lose my character over a problem so stupid, that ICly, the character would know how to get out of. No one would tell me crap. And I had to find out IC. And I hated finding out IC. I had to step out of the roll of my character to find out somthing that the character should know already to to help facillitate my ooc lack of knowledge.

That is why as a newb I played this game on and off... Id quit for a few months and come back. You wanna make arm a fun place? YOu want the arm player base to grow? Then stop being jerks and making it difficult to play.

Been there, done that.
I find it funny, I have joined Arm about same time with RA. My first character has joined clan of stellar RPers, and all them stellar players seemed to have a role that would force them to answer all IC questions with "Why do you want to know?" Simple curiosity couldn't suffice, so I had to learn my bits of first knowledge about the world from complete strangers rather then from those whom I work and fight with. Both IC and OOC so, since stellar RPers don't go OOC to answer IC questions, right?

Yes, there were exceptions, thankfully. I've found people who granted me with basic knowledge of the world. Basic enough just to stop ruining my and other's RP because of lack of OOC knowledge.

No matter what you say, no matter how stellar you are you always use some knowledge from your previous characters. And in refusal to share that basic knowledge I see nothing other than OOC greed and desire to keep OOC advantage over newbies.

And I do believe newbie-helping should be done OOC rather then IC. Since it's cheaper, better and faster that way. I am sick to see long-winded "RP" scenes where newbie is being given directions to Bazaar or alike. He lives there for decades, he looks sane enough, he should know. If he asks questions like that then he is asking it for OOC reasons, thus he is breaking his character and is forcing me to break character if I am going to answer. And, since damage is done already, I'd OOC him briefly rather than choose to start RPing some unrealistic nonsense.

And while I am rather careless about skill branching, I'd like to comment that using common sense does not always help to realize the right sequence. Yes, I don't usually follow why skill_sidmaking branches out after mastering skill_teethpicking. So, skill branching is an OOC concept for me and I fail to see where it damages RP to know it.

[JollyGreenGiant]

A word to new players:

You're not bothering the helpers.  We signed up for the gig, being asked questions goes with the territory.  We're quite happy to help, however we can.  You're not intruding if you use the IM information we leave on the helper page or the GDB.  We have control over what goes up as far as our contact information goes, so if it's available, we're comfortable with you using it.  I signed up as a helper because when I first started playing, someone helped me.  I like to think of it as returning the favor.  So, feel free to ask away.

Especially Larrath.  Bombard him with questions.  Spam his email!  DOS his connection... er.  Wait.  Sorry.  Got a bit carried away there.

Disclaimer: Please do not spam Larrath or DOS his connection.  This suggestion was made in jest.  Unless of course you really want to.

[flurry]

EDIT:  After rereading my first attempt, I didn't really like the way it came out.

How very nice of you. Yes, I like second edition better. I too can post something in response without getting myself banned from GDB now.

:?

Okay.

My point was just that, although I understand the frustration of having to figure things out for yourself, it just seems like RA's post was basically saying "screw the IC/OOC rules".   That's how it reads to me, anyway.

And we can debate the rationale behind them, but ultimately I think we just have to recognize that they're part of the game.   It's kind of disrespectful to the people who run the game otherwise.  Lobby to change them if you don't think they're fair.

[Agent_137]

A tip:
Don't make a character that knows stuff ICly that you don't know OOCly.

Don't make a poison specialist unless you know what it branches from.

better yet, don't make a poison specialist from the start, since you have to work quite a while to branch it! Make the proper guild, live up the character, and have a distant goal of specializing in poisons.

But if you want to skip all the -work-, you have three options:

If you need information that you don't OOCly know, email the mud account.
If you want to play a character that leaps beyond the typical set coded options, make a special application.
If you want a badass character without roleplaying him growing up from a private to a general, go play a MUSH.

The -rule- is:
If it's not something your average citizen of zalanthas would know offhand, it's too IC to be told OOCly.

That's the rule. You don't like it, you can try to sway the player base, but you won't have much success. I like the rule mostly because of these reasons here:

Finding out on your own is exciting.
This isn't a MUSH.
Mystery is enjoyable.
I enjoy RP, I don't need complicated information or advanced secrets and badass characters to have a good time. As I learn more of the world with each character, I see new oppourtunities for new characters. I enjoy doing it this way.
If you're spreading "too IC" info, you can't spread it unevenly, or there will be a power shift unfairly to those with friends who know the OOC knowledge. If you tear down the rule, you'd have to put all the secrets in the docs. And then where do you draw the line? Do we want magick spells in the docs? If we don't put magick spells in the docs, will some new magicker one day post complaining about how he doen't know the 10th level spell of doom even though his background says that he's been a magicker for 60 years?
It's a slippery slope.
The present rule is sensible AND simple, thus perfect.

[amoeba]

Mystery is enjoyable.

This is why the rules exist. Nothing cooler than suddenly seeing something new and unexpected on my skilllist.  Also one point that seems to be overlooked by folks that want to find out stuff beforehand, it's not the destination thats fun, it's the trip.

Take the case of the poison specilist.  IMHO, this would be a great dwarven focus. Be the best poison specialist there is. Think of all the roleplay in asking questions, exploring for new sources, bribing for information, testing a poison you found on that hapless half-elf hunter you saw foraging up some wood, etc.  What would the fun be if you allready knew everything there was?  I think the turning point of a player is when they stop worriing about what they think they should know, and start letting the game have a life of it's own. When that happens you find you really don't give a damn about what you oocly don't know.  Yes it is hard to start with, mainly because the new player just doesn't get this aspect of the game for quite awhile.

[Anonymous]

My point was just that, although I understand the frustration of having to figure things out for yourself, it just seems like RA's post was basically saying "screw the IC/OOC rules".   That's how it reads to me, anyway.

And to me his post was saying, "I am not going to use "find out IC" excuse to decline your any request for help."

There is a fair amount of so-called "IC" info that many characters seem to "know from background": where to buy cheap food, how to get there, what to avoid around here and so on. We don't let our every character to explore fighting proves of bahamet on his own, right? Why do we force newbies to be clueless about things before they starve or get trampled through?
I am not talking about sikrit things; I am talking about simple things that allow newbie to carry on through the first days of playing.

After reading "IC going OOC" thread I was surprised, not to say frustrated, to know that many people use outside means to communicate on game issues. No matter how innocent they claim it to be (though I know one MUD where asking your friend to login results permaban), I know enough about humankind to assume the worst.
And I think these problems are related. Strict rules set for in-game ooc channel cause more people to be afraid of being accused in abusing it. So newbies receive less help and more of game-related communication is carried through outside channels.

I did not mean to be disrespectful to people running or playing the game. With my ons and offs, all them newbie problems are not in long forgotten past for me. This is discussion board, so I thought I'd discuss something while I feel like it.

[Anonymous]

Ah, I am not done yet.

A tip:
Don't make a character that knows stuff ICly that you don't know OOCly.

With all due respect, Agent, but did I get you right?
Do you mean it's okay to use IC info from your previous characters, yet no good to ask for general hints and tips from other player? Where does that OOC knowledge come from? What's the difference RP- or rule-wise?

[Marauder Moe]

Saying "Don't make a character that knows stuff ICly that you don't know OOCly" doesn't mean "Do make a character that knows stuff ICly that you know OOCly".

[Agent_137]

Ah, I am not done yet.

A tip:
Don't make a character that knows stuff ICly that you don't know OOCly.

With all due respect, Agent, but did I get you right?
Do you mean it's okay to use IC info from your previous characters, yet no good to ask for general hints and tips from other player? Where does that OOC knowledge come from? What's the difference RP- or rule-wise?

Yes, you got me right, and you ask a very good question.

It's ok to include IC info gleaned from previous characters if you put it in your new character's background. (please don't just assume your character knows it. That's very bad.) Why is this ok but asking from other players is not? Simple: The rule states that if it isn't in the docs, you must find out for yourself, ICly.

Of course, there's lots of survival issues and tips that you can get from any helper, but isn't in the docs. For instance, if you ask a helper:

Q: I'm a noob! Food is expensive! How do I feed myself?
A: It's cheaper to go to a grocer and make your own food, than buy from taverns. Any average citizen would know this, but it might not be in the docs.

The difference rule-wise between finding out with your own character in a previous IC experience is just that, you found out IC. As oppossed to some one telling you what branches from what in an IM.

the difference RP-wise is that when you make a new character, if you don't include it in his background, he still doesn't know what you found out before! For instance (situations fictional):

I had a merc named Joe. He traveled with his troop from 'nak to tuluk and back a few times. He eventually died, as mercs do.

Now, I know how to get to tuluk, and this leaves me two choices for my next char (a merchant):

Put it in his background that he's done extensive traveling in caravans between the two cities.

Ask around ICly with the new character. If push comes to shove, and everyone hates you and no one will tell you, you could roleplay out talking to an NPC that would know and would talk to you. Then you can send that little event to the mud account, and then happily proceed on your way to tuluk.

You see, the whole issue is that you find out on your own, ICly. We want you to discover the world for yourself, that's part of the game. It's an -important- part of the game. trust us on this at first, and hopefully, in time, you'll come to realize the wisdom. amoeba, just a few posts up, explains this wisdom excellently. Read over his post again.

[Tlaloc]

I think a few posters (Bestette, Xygax) have already gone through and mentioned some really good points about how to dispense help to new players. I'd just like to post the following:

Do not, I repeat, do not give out IC information, OOCly. This includes locations of things, what skills branch from what, what roads to take, what monsters may be in the deserts, etc.

All of these things can easily be told someone in-game, or gleaned from the helpfiles. That is what the game is for. If a character wants to know where the bank is, then they can ask in-game. Giving out IC information OOCly cheats players of the roleplay - or even the chance of roleplay - on both sides. Newbies learn to rely on OOC info, and Oldbies never get to talk to anyone new.

And I just have to ask, "WHAT IS THE BIG FUCKING SECRET?" "HOW WOULD KNOWING WHAT SKILL BRANCHES INTO WHAT CHANGE ANYTHING?" and if it did change somthing, "HOW WOULD IT RUIN THE RP?" people are gonna try to max skills nomatter what you do. SO MAKING IT HARD FOR EVERYONE ELSE TO PLAY THE GAME IS A BAD IDEA!

It changes things because knowing what skills branch from what makes it easier for people to skillmax, and shifts the attention from roleplay, to playing for skills. Yes, everyone wants thier characters to be skilled at what they do. However, there is a difference between practicing a skill because its in-character for someone to do that, and OOCly skillmaxing a skill, just so you can branch it. One is roleplaying. The other is twinking.

Its perfectly A-OK to ask someone in-game for any and all of the questions posted above. "How do I find cheap food?" "How do I learn how to poison things?" Each one of these has the potential for a quest, or a plot, or even just some fun interactions.

I once helped a Newbie ICly, and that interaction became a deep rooted friendship for the characters, that lasted untill my PC died horribly in the sands. I went through almost every question posted above - I even taught the PC how to cook, what sorts of critters to watch out for in the deserts, all about the merchant and noble Houses, etc. etc. etc.

It takes the same amount of time to ask a question in-game, and get an in-game response, and get the same, or better, answer. Ask someone in-game how to become skilled in poisons, and who knows? Maybe a Guilder or a Templar will overhear you, and offer you a job, and training.

Secrets are what makes this game fun. In all honesty, I wish I could take back eight of the last ten years, and go back to a time when I didn't know half the things I know now about the game.

[creeper386]

(Derailment)

Ask someone in-game how to become skilled in poisons, and who knows?

Well, if the answer is just as IC as the question. You might be instructed in poisons, but no matter how much RP you go through and how much training and knowledge your character has, doesn't mean he can make poisons himself, or maybe not be able to use the poison he can get. Because he doesn't have the skill.

Personally not a person in favor of OOC passing of things like this, but the skill branching system is hardly IC. And in some ways is one of the worst ways to go about skills I've ever seen.

And honestly, the skill branching system, tends to create an OOC communication of that system, then another system would. And it creates OOC benefits. Such as one character being better or learning something quicker then another just because the first player has the knowledge of what branches from what. Which means, that OOC knowledge is still effecting IC play. Just as much as if the first player tells someone else that asks. At least IMO, it's the same.


Creeper

[Bestatte]

I'm gonna walk through some weird logic here - it's my own, so if it isn't understandable to anyone, I understand. I'm not always easy to understand, understandably.

So anyway...

A new player to the game has the disadvantage of not knowing jack. Players who've tried out different skillsets, rather than sticking with one or two, or sticking with 1 or 2 clans, or 1 city over the other, have a distinct advantage over their peers regarding skills and secrets and other IC info.

I'm squinting my eyes while I try to type this out so it makes as much sense as possible..bear with me!

Okay so new players - they might be stellar roleplayers, responsible non-twinks, really awesome people and regular nice guys in real life. But they haven't shown any of this in the game world yet. It's not to say that they're guilty til proven innocent, but rather, they come in with a blank slate til they've had a chance to fill it with something - good or bad.

If you GIVE them the answers - they're getting info that they might not be prepared to deal with yet. Especially if they're not personal friends of yours who you've played with for years in live action and shared lunches at school and kanked their ex-girlfriends or whatever.

Again, this doesn't mean that they are definitely not prepared to handle IC info that they haven't found out IC - it simply means they MIGHT not be able to handle it, and you have no way of knowing if they are or not.

So let them learn the same way the rest of us learned things - because it will enrich their future experience, not because it's cheating, or bad, or feels wrong, or is against the rules (even though it IS against the rules). Rules like this can't be enforced very well, because staffers don't have a line into everyone's house to make sure we're not cheating. We have to trust ourselves and each other.

And there is no way you can do that with a complete stranger asking for help. It isn't DIStrust - it just is that blank slate, waiting to be filled.

Does that make any sense? I hope so - it does in my head.

[Anonymous]

I have said things suck sometimes. I am being reminded they can be beautiful too. Well, I am aware of both.

Honestly, I enjoy game much more once I solved mysteries of where-the-bank-is level. And others seem to be more eager to interact with my character, even though I probably steal the possibility of conversation about those matters from them. Is it just me then?

As for handing out information, well, everything I allow my new characters to know from previous OOC knowledge is "common" enough and thus passable to other players too, IMO. If I am wrong with my judgment of what is "too IC" and uncommon then I should be punished for abusing it myself, regardless of whether I allow someone else to abuse it as well.

[Agent_137]

If some one tells you that the location of the bank is too ic to tell you over aim, smack them really hard next time you see them. Then smack yourself for not IMing a helper to begin with.

They are the only people you should be IMing with questions.

The rule is:
If the average citizen of the known world would know it, it's not too IC to be told OOC.

Safe topics include:
bank locations.
Water seller locations.

Shit, if you type help map it SHOWS you where stuff is.

Further, why even bother asking people out of game for this type stuff? Just as IC. I mean, if you're a commoner from 'nak, and you've been scraping by for your 20 years, why would you even know where the bank is? You sure as hell haven't had much more than 50 'sid on hand your whole life. It's not that much of a stretch.

Further, if you ask a question like that, most people won't press you with deep character questions since it's obvious you're new to the city, OOCly or ICly.

I just don't understand this trend of not asking questions IC and not IMing helpers. If you do both of these things, life is easy.

[Bestatte]

You are so right..... You inspired me to reconsider how I play the entire game.

Uh - I am? Dangit, tell me which part I'm right about so I can get it framed. I hate it when I'm right, and don't really know it yet!

<whine>

[Anonymous]

If some one tells you that the location of the bank is too ic to tell you over aim, smack them really hard next time you see them. Then smack yourself for not IMing a helper to begin with.

They are the only people you should be IMing with questions.

The rule is:
If the average citizen of the known world would know it, it's not too IC to be told OOC.

Safe topics include:
bank locations.
Water seller locations.

Shit, if you type help map it SHOWS you where stuff is.

Further, why even bother asking people out of game for this type stuff? Just as IC. I mean, if you're a commoner from 'nak, and you've been scraping by for your 20 years, why would you even know where the bank is? You sure as hell haven't had much more than 50 'sid on hand your whole life. It's not that much of a stretch.

Further, if you ask a question like that, most people won't press you with deep character questions since it's obvious you're new to the city, OOCly or ICly.

I just don't understand this trend of not asking questions IC and not IMing helpers. If you do both of these things, life is easy.

1. I don't use AIM or any other shit for ARM communication. Because I have no personal interest in anyone here, except for topics related to game we play together which should be carried through in game means, IMO.

2. Actually the only exception was for two helpers. First lost interest in me as soon as he realized I am not exactly female, second failed to answer anything beyond help files. And since I did read help files they both were utterly useless.

3. Didn't I make my opinion clear? OOC-based questions should be done OOC. Your average semi-IC newbie-helping mutants have nothing to do with roleplaying at all, IMO.

4. All I am asking is to stop making difference in "common knowledge" suitable for newbies and "common knowledge" you use freely from your previous character experience.

5. I am not even asking to expand help files or babysit newbies, I am just asking you to stop slapping Radioactive Age or alike when they hand a little tip to a newbie who is terribly stuck about some game-mechanic issue.

And thanks for attempt to clear up things for me. I appreciate effort even though it's wasted.

[Qetesh]

Here is my take and this is just my personal opinion. I would prefer the in game OOC channel approach to helping someone or if a helper or staff member sees that a person is really struggling, perhaps they could be sought out on an outside source like AIM or YIM to help them out.  

What I don't really like the idea of players that are not on the helpers list actively seeking out people to help.  If you are doing this than you should really request to be a helper. It's one thing if someone finds you on AIM and asks you a question. For that I think Bestattes guidelines are top notch.  But in seeking people out, you are leaving yourself open for far too much IC info spreading risk.

Now as for what you can and cannot say to people. I think again, common sense should come into play.  (I tend to lean on common sense a bit)  Avoid answering questions that tell things that you don't see in the docs. Don't let someone know where droves secrete palace is, don't give out the ingredients to potions, don't tell people what goes into making an arrow.   What I think it is Ok to do is hint at things, give clues that will lead people to discovery.

Examples:

Drov's secrete palace: Well if you know about Drov's Palace IC'ly, I think you should find out from the person you heard it from. If this is OOC knowledge, I can't really help you there. You will have to find out about what it is and where it is in Character. Exploring things that you did not find out about in the game is not a good idea and is considered for the most part, cheating.

How do I make love Potion #9: If you have the potion and the right skills you could probably analyze it to find it what is made from. If you don't have the skill or it is uncraftable, then you won't be able to make it or lean how.

You can get into all sorts of icky grey areas here and may end up telling someone something that you didn't intend to. You may even ruin a plot.  So, if it's not a straight up,  "How do I sheath my weapon?' kind of question, I think you should leave it to the Helpers and staff.  Or let it get answered here where staff can monitor it.

Just because you as a player have extensive knowledge about the world, that does not give you license to go and tell everyone in the sake of helping.  And yes Radioactive Age  I agree with Bestatte, not everyone can handle OOC info the way you or I do.  Your best bet is not to take that chance and let them find out things the same way we did, the hard way.


Just my opinion though.