Helping New Players OOCly

[Anonymous]

Ah, I am not done yet.

A tip:
Don't make a character that knows stuff ICly that you don't know OOCly.

With all due respect, Agent, but did I get you right?
Do you mean it's okay to use IC info from your previous characters, yet no good to ask for general hints and tips from other player? Where does that OOC knowledge come from? What's the difference RP- or rule-wise?

[Marauder Moe]

Saying "Don't make a character that knows stuff ICly that you don't know OOCly" doesn't mean "Do make a character that knows stuff ICly that you know OOCly".

[Agent_137]

Ah, I am not done yet.

A tip:
Don't make a character that knows stuff ICly that you don't know OOCly.

With all due respect, Agent, but did I get you right?
Do you mean it's okay to use IC info from your previous characters, yet no good to ask for general hints and tips from other player? Where does that OOC knowledge come from? What's the difference RP- or rule-wise?

Yes, you got me right, and you ask a very good question.

It's ok to include IC info gleaned from previous characters if you put it in your new character's background. (please don't just assume your character knows it. That's very bad.) Why is this ok but asking from other players is not? Simple: The rule states that if it isn't in the docs, you must find out for yourself, ICly.

Of course, there's lots of survival issues and tips that you can get from any helper, but isn't in the docs. For instance, if you ask a helper:

Q: I'm a noob! Food is expensive! How do I feed myself?
A: It's cheaper to go to a grocer and make your own food, than buy from taverns. Any average citizen would know this, but it might not be in the docs.

The difference rule-wise between finding out with your own character in a previous IC experience is just that, you found out IC. As oppossed to some one telling you what branches from what in an IM.

the difference RP-wise is that when you make a new character, if you don't include it in his background, he still doesn't know what you found out before! For instance (situations fictional):

I had a merc named Joe. He traveled with his troop from 'nak to tuluk and back a few times. He eventually died, as mercs do.

Now, I know how to get to tuluk, and this leaves me two choices for my next char (a merchant):

Put it in his background that he's done extensive traveling in caravans between the two cities.

Ask around ICly with the new character. If push comes to shove, and everyone hates you and no one will tell you, you could roleplay out talking to an NPC that would know and would talk to you. Then you can send that little event to the mud account, and then happily proceed on your way to tuluk.

You see, the whole issue is that you find out on your own, ICly. We want you to discover the world for yourself, that's part of the game. It's an -important- part of the game. trust us on this at first, and hopefully, in time, you'll come to realize the wisdom. amoeba, just a few posts up, explains this wisdom excellently. Read over his post again.

[Tlaloc]

I think a few posters (Bestette, Xygax) have already gone through and mentioned some really good points about how to dispense help to new players. I'd just like to post the following:

Do not, I repeat, do not give out IC information, OOCly. This includes locations of things, what skills branch from what, what roads to take, what monsters may be in the deserts, etc.

All of these things can easily be told someone in-game, or gleaned from the helpfiles. That is what the game is for. If a character wants to know where the bank is, then they can ask in-game. Giving out IC information OOCly cheats players of the roleplay - or even the chance of roleplay - on both sides. Newbies learn to rely on OOC info, and Oldbies never get to talk to anyone new.

And I just have to ask, "WHAT IS THE BIG FUCKING SECRET?" "HOW WOULD KNOWING WHAT SKILL BRANCHES INTO WHAT CHANGE ANYTHING?" and if it did change somthing, "HOW WOULD IT RUIN THE RP?" people are gonna try to max skills nomatter what you do. SO MAKING IT HARD FOR EVERYONE ELSE TO PLAY THE GAME IS A BAD IDEA!

It changes things because knowing what skills branch from what makes it easier for people to skillmax, and shifts the attention from roleplay, to playing for skills. Yes, everyone wants thier characters to be skilled at what they do. However, there is a difference between practicing a skill because its in-character for someone to do that, and OOCly skillmaxing a skill, just so you can branch it. One is roleplaying. The other is twinking.

Its perfectly A-OK to ask someone in-game for any and all of the questions posted above. "How do I find cheap food?" "How do I learn how to poison things?" Each one of these has the potential for a quest, or a plot, or even just some fun interactions.

I once helped a Newbie ICly, and that interaction became a deep rooted friendship for the characters, that lasted untill my PC died horribly in the sands. I went through almost every question posted above - I even taught the PC how to cook, what sorts of critters to watch out for in the deserts, all about the merchant and noble Houses, etc. etc. etc.

It takes the same amount of time to ask a question in-game, and get an in-game response, and get the same, or better, answer. Ask someone in-game how to become skilled in poisons, and who knows? Maybe a Guilder or a Templar will overhear you, and offer you a job, and training.

Secrets are what makes this game fun. In all honesty, I wish I could take back eight of the last ten years, and go back to a time when I didn't know half the things I know now about the game.

[creeper386]

(Derailment)

Ask someone in-game how to become skilled in poisons, and who knows?

Well, if the answer is just as IC as the question. You might be instructed in poisons, but no matter how much RP you go through and how much training and knowledge your character has, doesn't mean he can make poisons himself, or maybe not be able to use the poison he can get. Because he doesn't have the skill.

Personally not a person in favor of OOC passing of things like this, but the skill branching system is hardly IC. And in some ways is one of the worst ways to go about skills I've ever seen.

And honestly, the skill branching system, tends to create an OOC communication of that system, then another system would. And it creates OOC benefits. Such as one character being better or learning something quicker then another just because the first player has the knowledge of what branches from what. Which means, that OOC knowledge is still effecting IC play. Just as much as if the first player tells someone else that asks. At least IMO, it's the same.


Creeper

[Bestatte]

I'm gonna walk through some weird logic here - it's my own, so if it isn't understandable to anyone, I understand. I'm not always easy to understand, understandably.

So anyway...

A new player to the game has the disadvantage of not knowing jack. Players who've tried out different skillsets, rather than sticking with one or two, or sticking with 1 or 2 clans, or 1 city over the other, have a distinct advantage over their peers regarding skills and secrets and other IC info.

I'm squinting my eyes while I try to type this out so it makes as much sense as possible..bear with me!

Okay so new players - they might be stellar roleplayers, responsible non-twinks, really awesome people and regular nice guys in real life. But they haven't shown any of this in the game world yet. It's not to say that they're guilty til proven innocent, but rather, they come in with a blank slate til they've had a chance to fill it with something - good or bad.

If you GIVE them the answers - they're getting info that they might not be prepared to deal with yet. Especially if they're not personal friends of yours who you've played with for years in live action and shared lunches at school and kanked their ex-girlfriends or whatever.

Again, this doesn't mean that they are definitely not prepared to handle IC info that they haven't found out IC - it simply means they MIGHT not be able to handle it, and you have no way of knowing if they are or not.

So let them learn the same way the rest of us learned things - because it will enrich their future experience, not because it's cheating, or bad, or feels wrong, or is against the rules (even though it IS against the rules). Rules like this can't be enforced very well, because staffers don't have a line into everyone's house to make sure we're not cheating. We have to trust ourselves and each other.

And there is no way you can do that with a complete stranger asking for help. It isn't DIStrust - it just is that blank slate, waiting to be filled.

Does that make any sense? I hope so - it does in my head.

[Anonymous]

I have said things suck sometimes. I am being reminded they can be beautiful too. Well, I am aware of both.

Honestly, I enjoy game much more once I solved mysteries of where-the-bank-is level. And others seem to be more eager to interact with my character, even though I probably steal the possibility of conversation about those matters from them. Is it just me then?

As for handing out information, well, everything I allow my new characters to know from previous OOC knowledge is "common" enough and thus passable to other players too, IMO. If I am wrong with my judgment of what is "too IC" and uncommon then I should be punished for abusing it myself, regardless of whether I allow someone else to abuse it as well.

[Agent_137]

If some one tells you that the location of the bank is too ic to tell you over aim, smack them really hard next time you see them. Then smack yourself for not IMing a helper to begin with.

They are the only people you should be IMing with questions.

The rule is:
If the average citizen of the known world would know it, it's not too IC to be told OOC.

Safe topics include:
bank locations.
Water seller locations.

Shit, if you type help map it SHOWS you where stuff is.

Further, why even bother asking people out of game for this type stuff? Just as IC. I mean, if you're a commoner from 'nak, and you've been scraping by for your 20 years, why would you even know where the bank is? You sure as hell haven't had much more than 50 'sid on hand your whole life. It's not that much of a stretch.

Further, if you ask a question like that, most people won't press you with deep character questions since it's obvious you're new to the city, OOCly or ICly.

I just don't understand this trend of not asking questions IC and not IMing helpers. If you do both of these things, life is easy.

[Bestatte]

You are so right..... You inspired me to reconsider how I play the entire game.

Uh - I am? Dangit, tell me which part I'm right about so I can get it framed. I hate it when I'm right, and don't really know it yet!

<whine>

[Anonymous]

If some one tells you that the location of the bank is too ic to tell you over aim, smack them really hard next time you see them. Then smack yourself for not IMing a helper to begin with.

They are the only people you should be IMing with questions.

The rule is:
If the average citizen of the known world would know it, it's not too IC to be told OOC.

Safe topics include:
bank locations.
Water seller locations.

Shit, if you type help map it SHOWS you where stuff is.

Further, why even bother asking people out of game for this type stuff? Just as IC. I mean, if you're a commoner from 'nak, and you've been scraping by for your 20 years, why would you even know where the bank is? You sure as hell haven't had much more than 50 'sid on hand your whole life. It's not that much of a stretch.

Further, if you ask a question like that, most people won't press you with deep character questions since it's obvious you're new to the city, OOCly or ICly.

I just don't understand this trend of not asking questions IC and not IMing helpers. If you do both of these things, life is easy.

1. I don't use AIM or any other shit for ARM communication. Because I have no personal interest in anyone here, except for topics related to game we play together which should be carried through in game means, IMO.

2. Actually the only exception was for two helpers. First lost interest in me as soon as he realized I am not exactly female, second failed to answer anything beyond help files. And since I did read help files they both were utterly useless.

3. Didn't I make my opinion clear? OOC-based questions should be done OOC. Your average semi-IC newbie-helping mutants have nothing to do with roleplaying at all, IMO.

4. All I am asking is to stop making difference in "common knowledge" suitable for newbies and "common knowledge" you use freely from your previous character experience.

5. I am not even asking to expand help files or babysit newbies, I am just asking you to stop slapping Radioactive Age or alike when they hand a little tip to a newbie who is terribly stuck about some game-mechanic issue.

And thanks for attempt to clear up things for me. I appreciate effort even though it's wasted.

[Qetesh]

Here is my take and this is just my personal opinion. I would prefer the in game OOC channel approach to helping someone or if a helper or staff member sees that a person is really struggling, perhaps they could be sought out on an outside source like AIM or YIM to help them out.  

What I don't really like the idea of players that are not on the helpers list actively seeking out people to help.  If you are doing this than you should really request to be a helper. It's one thing if someone finds you on AIM and asks you a question. For that I think Bestattes guidelines are top notch.  But in seeking people out, you are leaving yourself open for far too much IC info spreading risk.

Now as for what you can and cannot say to people. I think again, common sense should come into play.  (I tend to lean on common sense a bit)  Avoid answering questions that tell things that you don't see in the docs. Don't let someone know where droves secrete palace is, don't give out the ingredients to potions, don't tell people what goes into making an arrow.   What I think it is Ok to do is hint at things, give clues that will lead people to discovery.

Examples:

Drov's secrete palace: Well if you know about Drov's Palace IC'ly, I think you should find out from the person you heard it from. If this is OOC knowledge, I can't really help you there. You will have to find out about what it is and where it is in Character. Exploring things that you did not find out about in the game is not a good idea and is considered for the most part, cheating.

How do I make love Potion #9: If you have the potion and the right skills you could probably analyze it to find it what is made from. If you don't have the skill or it is uncraftable, then you won't be able to make it or lean how.

You can get into all sorts of icky grey areas here and may end up telling someone something that you didn't intend to. You may even ruin a plot.  So, if it's not a straight up,  "How do I sheath my weapon?' kind of question, I think you should leave it to the Helpers and staff.  Or let it get answered here where staff can monitor it.

Just because you as a player have extensive knowledge about the world, that does not give you license to go and tell everyone in the sake of helping.  And yes Radioactive Age  I agree with Bestatte, not everyone can handle OOC info the way you or I do.  Your best bet is not to take that chance and let them find out things the same way we did, the hard way.


Just my opinion though.