Titles within the nobility

[wizturbo]

You know, something I find to be severely lacking is titles within the noble community.  I hear all this "Senior Lord" crap and its extremely jarring to me to hear, as oppose to the flashy and meaningful titles used in Europe and other empires and kingdoms thoroughout history.

I think it would add to the whole noble "scene" if titles were created similar to the ones used in Europe, as its a way of knowing just how noble a noble is.  It would also give nobles something to strive for, so they might achieve that higher rank and receive that rank's added power and respect.  

In European times if someone was announced "The Duchess Fancyskirt Borsail" it would immediately be understood that she ranked higher than say "The Baron Fancypants Oash" because the rank Duchess is senior to that of Baron.  In Zalanthas, two nobles walk into a place, and very often its unknown who is senior, and that doesn't seem very "Zalanthasian" to me...because when someone is better than you in Zalanthas within the noble world, they tend to make it crystal clear.


Anyway...just some thoughts.

[Savak]

This has been done to an extent WITHIN a given house, but remains relatively bland, if comprehensible, in general (i.e., 'senior', 'junior', etc.).  I suppose a fair argument could be made to standardize these within the two major cities..

[My 2 sids]

Maybe if we included the ranking of the houses?

[fearwig]

I think that kind of makes itself clear of itself (and by being up to speculation), and doesn't really apply to the whole system.

The rest of it, however, is a wonderful idea.

[Agent_137]

Uh, i don't know european rankings. Sorry. Born and bred TEXAN. I had plenty of history in school and I love history, but just not that much fancy fluffy european title history.

Though I am reading the Decameron and loving it.

Back to the thread, crystal clear titles is good. European titles are bad. Standardize simple straightforward titles like Junior Noble, Senior Noble, and OMGOMGOMGOMISHATMYPANTS Noble.

[Maybe42or54]

Yes.. I have seen in other muds things like
Noble of the third pier of taxation.
Second count of money. (A banker)
A lord count of the west castle keep's second garrison.



I love simple.

[wizturbo]

I believe the common European noble titles were ranked somewhere around this set up:

Baron/Baroness (lowest ranking)

Viscount

Count/Countess

Marquis/Marquess

Duke/Duchess  (Highest ranking under the king)


Note:  I am NOT advocating using these titles within game, I'm just saying that having standardized meaningful titles would assist with making the nobles in both cities more realistic and draw some more definite lines on who's boss and who's underboss in given situations.  The only case of this I know of is in Allanak with the colored robes of the Templarate with Blue being beneath the Red, and the Red being beneath the terrifying Black robes.  Something that could be equally as simple could be devised for use within the noble houses to signify rank and power.  A Templar PC can strive to achieve the Red Robe, but a noble PC cannot really strive to achieve anything but the word "Senior" or some fancy title within their house that means nothing to the outside world.

[Larrath]

"Senior Lord" is a general term.  When speaking to one Senior Lord, one would be expected to use their correct title.  "Lord Treasurer", "Lord Commander", "Lord Overseer" and what-not.

Making a standardized table might be good though.  Meh, I'm tired.

[SpyGuy]

Senior Lords -can- be scary things, but the average commoners doesn't see many since most PC nobles never acheive that rank in a house.  And there is a variety of ranking schemes within the citystates based on rank and house (at least for Allanak).

http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

If I'm understanding Wizturbo correctly I think the big thing here is that there is no inbetween from Family member and Senior Lord.  So when two family members enter a room other than by house ranking, there is no way to tell which should be deferrential.  This is partly handled already by upper/middle house rankings and player seniority, but neither is really clear cut if you're both upper houses.  But having a title or two inbetween for more prestigious nobles would give the system a little bit more depth.

There are already systems like that in play to a degree.  A family member who is head assistant to a Senior Lord would clearly outrank one who didn't have a position.  But this type of ranking exists almost solely on an informal basis and doesn't extend outside the house.  Maybe making the titles a little more authentic sounding and letting there be a few more PC aheivable rankings would give noble PCs something to strive for and a new way to bicker endlessly about their seniority.

So thumbs up I guess.

[Xamminy]

That's why you need to learn.  It's not necessarily a clear-cut thing.  You need to learn who's related to who.  Often, there is NO clear way to tell who is worthy of more respect, so you have to pick and then you're left insulting one of the nobles, which is good for RP.  These families would not feel like coming up with ways to rank themselves...politics is more of a subtle beast than that, even in Allanak.

[ashyom]

In the past year, the noble house staffers have begun to tweak the houses' ranks so that there are more diversity, rather than just three ranks - jr, sr, and head of house.  We are however avoiding adding new titles for every tiny change in a noble's rank - mainly for playability's sake (and our sanity).  However, the basic structure still remains pretty much the same.  

Oash, Borsail, and Tor as well have moved beyond using just Senior/Junior, though Oash has been slower in integrating their recently-modified titles in order to give players time to get used to the changes; theirs is a bit unusual.  Tor and Borsail have been using theirs for some time now.

If you're still seeing Senior/Junior usage, Wizturbo, I suspect that's because the person hasn't become acquainted with the new titles.  You're welcome to contact me and let me know the circumstances, if you feel that the issue goes beyond a misinformation or forgetfulness.
Hope this helps some,
Ashyom

[Naiona]

Borsail titles the average commoner might know (in order of rank):

Lord Commander
Lord Consul
Lord Overseer
Lord Bursar
Lord Patriarch
Senator


You may or may not have a general idea what these people do, who they are or what they look like, but their titles would be something akin to celebrity.  These are the richest, most powerful men in House Borsail -and therefore always of interest to most groups within the city.[/i]

[jmordetsky]

How does one gain those titles? Is it based on birth?

For example if the Lord Patriarch dies, how is his or her successor chosen? Is it based on blood? (First born children, followed by siblings....etc?) or perhaps something not unlike the papal vote?

Are such things common knoweldge? Do they differ from house to house?

[Larrath]

As far as I'm aware, this is not based on birth but rather on competence (or friends and internal politics, at least), and this is common knowledge in the circles that generally know how the noble houses function (the middle-high class and up, basically).

[Naiona]

Larrath is basically correct.  The noble titles in House Borsail and most of the other noble houses are earned rather then given.

Borsail has it's own method for determining who gets what, but that is IC information that not even most PC servants to the house would know.  What would be known to most commoners is that some kind of internal Borsail event is held and that there seems to be a lot of money and effort exerted in the process by everyone down to the lowest rung on the chain.

It would be difficult, but a PC could rise to one of these positions.  In the past, we have had PC Lord Commanders, but it wasn't as difficult back then to achieve.  Also, it could be noted that one of the NPC titled Borsail is a retired PC who had shown promise of achieving that position during their playtime.