Spears

[Rhyden]

I was thinking a bit; is it me, or does anybody else perceive dual wield using two spears as sort of wonky? I mean, its really hard to imagine using two spears unless really really experienced, strong and fast...anybody else see this?

[Delirium]

Two full sized spears, yes.

Two short spears, no.

[Rhyden]

Two full sized spears, yes.

Two short spears, no.

True, but even with short spears, being like about 3-4 feet (?), it's still wonky and would be pretty hard to maneuver. Also, take into consideration that with a spear, one is piercing, slashing would be a little bit easier with two short or long spears, but piercing would just be wonky...

[Tamarin]

Short spears are shorter than that.

[Forest Junkie]

Use one for offense, one for defense.

Keep the second in your off-hand as a way to parry aside blows leveled at your chest.

That's the way I roleplay it.

Wonky? Maybe.

[Maybe42or54]

Be a man, use a club.

[Rhyden]

Be a man, use a club.

I still see it as wonky. Sword'n spear, club'n spear and especially axe'n spear is also pretty wonky...

...unless you're a moon mage lvl. 45 with two spears of ultimate doom +5 lightning strength of cloud destruction that can both be wielded giving you like a +8 chance to hit and +2 to save with a -2 advantage to your armor save.

:|

[Forest Junkie]

I don't think your average Zalanthian (or whatever the hell the correct term is for Zalanthas people) would have THAT much damn trouble dualing two spears, especially if one was fairly shorter than the main one.

That's just me.

[Rhyden]

I don't think your average Zalanthian (or whatever the hell the correct term is for Zalanthas people) would have THAT much damn trouble dualing two spears, especially if one was fairly shorter than the main one.

That's just me.

True, but it would be wonkier (love that word) and more difficult to use two spears than a sword and a shield, or just a sword in both hands per say. When it comes down to it, with such a whacky combo, would you risk using two spears that are difficult to maneuver?Or would you use a two-handed sword that is much easier to use, probably would save your ass more often, and would be more efficient to wear on your body?

-=Wonky=-

[Maybe42or54]

Be a man, use your hand.

Other then that, if you want the dual-wielding spears to go away, make fun of everyone that uses two. Make sure you never use two. Start a crazed bunch of people onto more brutal weapons like axes and clubs.

[jmordetsky]

What about a sword and a trident?


Some spears should get a twohanded bonus.



hahah. I wield my spear with two hands....ahahhahaha....It get a bonus....when I do.....hahahahaha......


hahahahhaaa.

Okay. Enough. Sorry.


Hahahahaha

[Tamarin]

Dude...have you ever used two spears?  Or any weapons for that matter?  How do you know it wouldn't make the deadliest combo ever?

[EvilRoeSlade]

It seems to me spears are long, awkward, and almost impossible to parry with.

[Forest Junkie]

It seems to me spears are long, awkward, and almost impossible to parry with.

I don't think it would be tough if you factor in agility/strength/skill/ along with the size of the spear.

A spear is essentially a bo-staff with a tip on the end. I know it's possible to parry with a bo-staff. Hence, I think there is a slight possibility one could parry with a spear.

[Maybe42or54]

Not to mention hand Eye coordination for two things at the same time.
Depth perception.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I would think that parrying with the blade would be the only option.  If you parry with the haft, then you don't have a spear anymore.

[Forest Junkie]

I would think that parrying with the blade would be the only option.  If you parry with the haft, then you don't have a spear anymore.

Parrying does not necessarily take the brunt of any blow. It merely shifts the force of that blow in another direction with minimal exertion of energy. You'd have to be a bad joker to parry anything with a spearhead. I've personally never seen it done with bo-staffs unless used in a "circle-parry" manuever that attempts to disarm an opponent.

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

It would work well with two shortspears, the small stabbing kind that people throw from their horses.

Despite the way the code plays it, the spears need not always be used to stab. Not when you can smack people right in the head [like a club] using its shaft [body]

Just like the martial arts movies, if you guys get to watch a lot of those where you come from, chinese martial arts, so on. The spears are used as much as smacking equipment as stabbing kinds.

[Armaddict]

I agree.  Two spears is bad.  Not impossible, but definitely -less- beneficial than other weapon combos you could have.  Perhaps not with the code, but realistically.

A spear and a dagger?  Okay.  Spear and shield?  Much better, with history on earth as being widely used in the past.

However, I'm of the opinion that full-sized spears are going to be used two handed.  It just makes sense.  That's how you gain the full benefit of the long shaft, as a club, parrying staff, -and- stabber.  Take a five foot long stick, and swing it around.  Kinda unwieldy with one hand, huh?  At least for most.

Shortspears are different.  I still don't see two being used very often at all, but it greatly reduces the 'unwieldy' factor when used with other weapons.

[Angela Christine]

Maybe they are worried that something branches off Dual Wield that does not branch off of TwoHanded or Shield Use?  I know that sounds really, really stupid, but I once had someone in my clan ICly trying to get me to switch from one single big spear to two little spears, and when I didn't they emailed me telling me that a particular thing branched of Dual Wield for my class.  I don't know if it was true, and even if true it would be a stupid reason to change weapon styles, but if that rumour is still going around that could indeed influence some people's choice of weapons.


Personally I think a parrying dagger would make a better off-hand choice.  It is still a piercing weapon, but a dagger is easier to mannage than a second spear, and actually makes more sense.  Even the short spears are a few feet long, so it is possible for your opponent to get so close that the spear (or any long weapon) becomes useless and unmanuverable.  Having a dagger available to stave off those bear hugs isn't a terrible idea, and it can also be used for parrying.  Didn't some historical spearmen or pikemen (Romans, maybe?) also carry shortswords, so they would have something useful for close quarters fighting?   Of course they didn't carry a pike or spear in one hand and a shortsword in the other at the same time, but it is sort of close.  


AC

[Anael]

I am with Tamarin here. I myself wouldn't scoff anything unless I am pretty sure it's impossible.

Also, can't forget good old classy

...brandishing two spears,
he hurried forward like a mountain lion...

And to add some babble...

Two shortspears is definitely a reasonable concept, they're actually used.
I believe spear + off-hand is a real combo that existed in RL - legends about Cuculain metions he used a spear and a sword... blah blah. Yes, I know these are legends.
Spear + ciupaga axe I have definitely seen on a medieval tapestry depicting a combat scene. But then, the guy on that tapestry looks like he's just overseeing, maybe he's not intending to join at all :wink:  and maybe the author didn't know a thing about fighting. Who knows. I used it on Arm a couple of times since I saw that.
Thing is, the spear-using dual wielding techniques I surely know about were somewhat different from what we take as 'dual wield' here. Usually, Viking warriors brought up to three spears into fight - this was pretty common in many other nations as well. Spears were meant to be thrown at the opponent, but sometimes they kept one, took their axe or sword or whatever they had for close encounters, charged and slammed the spear into their foe's shield. With enough skill/luck, the spear got stuck in the shield, rendering it useless (or very unwieldy). So, the shield user is now holding shield with a few feet of wood sticking out of it - he can't move too well and most likely wants to get rid of the shield - but there's this guy in front of him already swinging his axe... you get the idea. So much for finesse. There was usually no place for fancy tricks and probing jabs in melee.
Another thing the code and many RPGs don't take into account is range. Just take phalanx. How'd you code -that-?

Edit: I just realized, you know many spears in game that don't have 'long' in sdesc are actually pretty short?

[SpyGuy]

Maybe they are worried that something branches off Dual Wield that does not branch off of TwoHanded or Shield Use?  I know that sounds really, really stupid, but I once had someone in my clan ICly trying to get me to switch from one single big spear to two little spears, and when I didn't they emailed me telling me that a particular thing branched of Dual Wield for my class.  I don't know if it was true, and even if true it would be a stupid reason to change weapon styles, but if that rumour is still going around that could indeed influence some people's choice of weapons.

If this is true I'd say change it so that all weapon styles can branch.  Otherwise its code edging you into something because otherwise, with more believable and historically accurate fighting styles, you're being left behind.  But I have no clue whether or not that rumor is true, though I've heard it before as well.

Also on that note, some people likely use 2 spears because its allowed by code and pretty effective.  And in a way, that is RP.  If on Zalanthas a hunter can do the most damage wielding 2 spears, wouldn't alot of hunters try to hunt in that style?  Where's the line where you say the code isn't correct and doing something, for lack of a better term, is wonky?  Then again, not all spears can be dual wielded by everyone so I think there is some of this reflected in code.

Personally I prefer the utilitarian spear and dagger when playing a hunter.  But that's me.  

[Agent_137]

Be a man, use your hand.

Other then that, if you want the dual-wielding spears to go away, make fun of everyone that uses two. Make sure you never use two. Start a crazed bunch of people onto more brutal weapons like axes and clubs.

Used to, when I beat down a dual spear user, I'd emote getting so close that their spears became ineffective. Then I would poke fun and suggest real weapons. Some people switched, some didn't. Hopefully, they all thought about it for their next characters.

[Delirium]

Maybe they are worried that something branches off Dual Wield that does not branch off of TwoHanded or Shield Use?  I know that sounds really, really stupid, but I once had someone in my clan ICly trying to get me to switch from one single big spear to two little spears, and when I didn't they emailed me telling me that a particular thing branched of Dual Wield for my class.  I don't know if it was true, and even if true it would be a stupid reason to change weapon styles, but if that rumour is still going around that could indeed influence some people's choice of weapons.

If this is true I'd say change it so that all weapon styles can branch.  Otherwise its code edging you into something because otherwise, with more believable and historically accurate fighting styles, you're being left behind.  But I have no clue whether or not that rumor is true, though I've heard it before as well.

[Rhyden]

Two shortspears is likely if they are like less than two and a half feet or less in length (roughly 2 cords?). But they'd really be used more like swords than spears, really. I mean, its not like one would jab with two short spears more than they would swipe them, that's just the nature of combat.

[Zharal]

I think spears in game are far diferent then the general concept of spear.  A general spear lenght I belive is betwen 8 and 12 feet.  It is used to gain a long reach on prey and to keep dangerous prey at lenght.  In battle it is used on the front line to bring down horsed troops and chargeing footmen.  If a footman got passed your spear you would have to drop the spear and pull a blade or try and gain distance to use the spear again,  thus being used against arm opponents to keep them at a safer distance.   A javlin on the other hand is a much smaller weapon used for flight.  A shortspear in game is far shorter then a javilin and I belive can be used duel weild eaisly.  Not to mention there are spears in game that can only be held in your primary hand so as not to offset balance.  And I have seen spears that are clearly stated in there ldesc that they are specialy made for close quarters combat.  Which to me would be like a short yardstick with a spearhead on it.

[Xamminy]

You're thinking of a weapon more commonly called a 'pike,' inkhore.  Spears are more like 5-6' in length.

[Zharal]

A five foot spear I belive would be a javlin.  Maybe if I where a  pygmy Id own a five foot spear.

[xX_Cathedral_Xx]

In my opinion, I think two spears would be rather odd to work with, but possible to do given you would probably figure out a way. Two shortspears, would probably be a lot better to use than a longer and shorter in combination. If you don't think parrying with a spear is possible, you just need to watch Troy.. The fight scene between Prince Hector and Achielies(Spelling?) is a perfect example.

[Larrath]

Two full-sized spears would probably be too bulky for most humans to handle.  Maybe elves are agile enough to handle two, but it's still going to be difficult to attack properly with them.
Two half-sized or short-ranged spears should be fine.  People grip them by the middle anyway, so it's not all that long and hard to manuever.

It's possible to parry with just about anything from a large piece of rock to a two-handed axe of singing +3.  Parrying isn't always just throwing your weapon into the opponent's weapon; more often than not (and especially where weapons are more fragile), it will be an attempt to hit the side of the weapon and deflect the blow, or to dodge and use your weapon to keep them from bringing their weapon in for a second hit.

[Zharal]

These are the definitions of Spear and Pike, compliments of WordIQ.com.
Hope this is helpful.

Definition of pike

A pike is a pole arm once used extensively by infantry principally as a counter-measure against cavalry assaults. Pikes were extremely long weapons, carried by infantry and resembled a spear between 10 and 14 feet long. These eventually grew in size both in shaft and head length; the awl pike could exceed six metres in length.
The steel tip was fairly long compared to the shaft, making the weapon most unwieldy in close combat. This meant that pikemen were often equipped with a sword for close encounters.
In operation on the battlefield, pikes were often used in large square "hedgehog" formations. For example, the Scots used highly disciplined units of pikemen called schiltrons to defeat English knights and heavy cavalry at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314. Large pike formations, sometimes defending attached musketeers, were in use during the 17th century, but were eventually rendered obsolete by the bayonet and the demise of the cavalry charge in the face of more effective firearms such as the flintlock musket.
The landsknechts were pikemen of renown during the 15th to the 17th centuries, mercenaries of the European Renaissance. They were most skillful in their handling of the long pike.
Retroactively most very long spears are today called pikes, such as the Macedonian sarissas.
Pikes today are used to carry the colours of an infantry regiment.

Definition of spear   


A spear is an ancient weapon, used for hunting and war. It consists of a shaft, usually of wood, with a sharpened head. The head may be simply the sharpened end of the shaft itself, as is the case with bamboo spears, or it may be of another material fastened to the shaft. The most common design is of a metal spearhead, shaped somewhat like a dagger, and made entirely for thrusting. Some spears used casters or casting devices such as the atlatl.
Spears of different designs were used for close combat and for throwing. One of the most famous throwing spears is the pilum used by the Romans.
The spear is a pole weapon, and may be seen as the ancestor of such weapons as the lance, the halberd, the naginata and the pike. Also the bayonet may, when mounted on a rifle, be considered a type of spear.
More than a weapon, a spear may be a symbol of power. In the Chinese martial arts community, the Chinese spear (qiāng 槍) is popularly known as the "king of weapons". Wotan's spear (called Gungnir) is of ashwood, made from the "World-Ash" Yggdrasil, and it is remarkable that Chiron's wedding-gift to Peleus when he married the nymph Thetis at a wedding attended by all the Olympians, was precisely an ashen spear.
One spear of religious significance is the Spear of Destiny, an artifact believed by some to have vast mystical powers.
A difficult distinction in spear history comes when trying to identify a lance. Early spears were often of 'poor' construction and made for throwing. In time spears became better build and stronger with steel tips. In Europe spears eventually became heavy and were used for mounted cavalry rather than for throwing. Although the term lance comes from Latin, it became associated with these longer, heavy spears and their many variations. Thus most who study medieval weaponry will distinguish between a spear (for throwing) and a lance (a kind of spear that was not thrown). Most scholars today would classify aboriginal weapons (such as those of the New World) as spears despite being reffered to as lances.

[Xamminy]

So...the weapon you described was a pike, even though you had the length wrong.  Is that what you're saying, inkhore?  You said a spear was a weapon for breaking a charge of footmen or cavalry.  That's what a pike is.

[Zharal]

yep thats what Im saying bud.. Thanks so very much for correcting me..

[Larrath]

Spears have far longer handles than swords, and the grip is generally not as comfortable.  Pick up a couple of broomsticks and try to use either ends of them as spears, and you'll see just how unwieldly and inaccurate it gets.

There's more to fighting than standing in place with a weapon and just attacking in a Diabloesque fashion, after all.

[fearwig]

I'd like to say, for one, that I think dual wielding is practically beneficial only in selective circumstances, and that Armageddon, of all muds, should be the first to reflect this. The dual wield code as it is stems heavily from the old Diku/ROM mechanisms, and while it's been crafted into something newer and better, I think it still lends too much weight to the benefit one can recieve from two weapons, especially weapons like spears.

You will do much, much better gripping one spear with both hands than trying to use two, unless, of course, you're a magical night ninja with laser-guided ninja stars and a special XYABstart combo. Which you are not. Thank you.

[Rhyden]

Be a man, use a club.

I still see it as wonky. Sword'n spear, club'n spear and especially axe'n spear is also pretty wonky...

...unless you're a moon mage lvl. 45 with two spears of ultimate doom +5 lightning strength of cloud destruction that can both be wielded giving you like a +8 chance to hit and +2 to save with a -2 advantage to your armor save.

:|

Precisely, Fearwig.

[Agent_137]

You will do much, much better gripping one spear with both hands than trying to use two, unless, of course, you're a magical night ninja with laser-guided ninja stars and a special XYABstart combo. Which you are not. Thank you.

With Ninjawizards! And, uh, bears! with bears that shoot laser beams from their eyes . .

Oh man! That would be so fricken' AWESOME!


p.s.
I think some dual wield combos are silly. Two medium sized weapons of equal size, or one big (but one handed) weapon and one smally parry only weapon is about all that makes sense. Though spears do kinda wonkify the situation. Perhaps they should be made twohanded more aggressively.

[Maybe42or54]

But then my twinked out HG will only be able to use 1 ten foot long spear!
I need 2 damn it! 2!!!

Ok.

Brooms are hard to kill with. That is why we let women (And gay men) use them.

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

Maybe they are worried that something branches off Dual Wield that does not branch off of TwoHanded or Shield Use? I know that sounds really, really stupid, but I once had someone in my clan ICly trying to get me to switch from one single big spear to two little spears, and when I didn't they emailed me telling me that a particular thing branched of Dual Wield for my class. I don't know if it was true, and even if true it would be a stupid reason to change weapon styles, but if that rumour is still going around that could indeed influence some people's choice of weapons.

...Not true I hope. But could be true.

[Rhyden]

Brooms are hard to kill with. That is why we let women (And gay men) use them.

Buddy, where I come from, that would earn you a harsh kick to the sack if you told that anywhere around a woman.

*Stands back from the splattering blood as the women's rights committee tears Maybe42or54 apart, limb from limb.

[Tlaloc]

Brooms are hard to kill with. That is why we let women (And gay men) use them.

I'm neither a woman, nor a gay man, and I use a broom quite often. I can also kill with one. And then I eat Brainz.