Sparring NPCs?

[Spud]

Has anyone ever thought of this? Having an NPC or two in training rooms of clans, with their sole purpose being training. They can have they're weapons out and it would be considered acceptable to attack them. Only problem I can see with this is that if people don't watch they may kill the NPC. Try explaining that.  Another thing, people may try to twink out by finding reason to spar. Maybe put a skill cap on the NPCs so they can spar and spar, but never get -too- good. Have a couple diferent sparring NPCs, with different levels of skill for the new chars that aren't very experienced aswell as good ones.
Thoughts?

[LazyBessie]

Some clans already have training dummies. They're big brutish NPC-type objects stuffed with sand. Not all clans have them, and of the clans that do have them, not all have them in each of their training locations (for those that have more than one).

[Ghost]

It goes for both ways:

Yes it is a good one, because it is sometimes odd that someone being in a clan for a considerably long time gets beaten by newcomers, just because they have not had much coded sparring but virtual trainings with virtual NPCs because of the login times.  
Also there is being bored part of just making a "change ldesc is sparring with a cool mate" and then throwing a couple of emotes, and then iddling.  If there are NPCs sparring you, at least there will be the "odd joy" of beating someone or being beaten by him (It is the hidden Hack and Slash in our subconciousness)

I believe making NPCs sparrable will make "incline of clan life".

On the other side, there is the issue of abusability.  Someone can twink out really fast.  Well, I know it is annoying something is being turned down because it is abusable, but you know.. It should be considered as well.

Sparring dummies, by the way, is not "sparring NPCs".  Because they dont hit you back.  Which is not fun.  If people does not get beaten down, the subconcious Hack and slash nature does not get quelled.


Over all, I think it is a good idea.  There are always VNPC guys sparring there after all.  Why not take one of them and enjoy?

[Bestatte]

Sometimes they hit back.

I miss Vendyra.

[Jacques]

In ancient times, before the Dragon and when water covered the surface of Zalanthas....

OK, maybe not THAT long ago, but quite a long time ago I had a discussion with some folks about this, including a staff member. The "final consensus" was that it was a neat idea, but with all the code hiccups that seem to be associated with NPCs, it would be a horrible headache for any staff involved, and would very likely involve the deaths of lots of PCs and the NPC at some point. It's not that you COULDN'T do it - it's that the level of effort involved in maintaining it and keeping abuse down would be more than it was worth. Training dummies can provide some of the same kind of thing, with fewer (although not none) headaches.

And yeah... I miss Vendyra too.

[Ghost]

Hmm.. Actually I can think of an idea about it:

In the sparring halls, add a command like "call".  When someone "calls" a generated NPC, jumps into the square, wielding training weapons, and have mercy on.  And while there is a generated NPC there, you can not call another one.  So that there wont be a mass number of NPCs around and the hazard chance gets lower.

Now, once you are done, with a "send" or whatever command, the NPC turns into vNPC.  So that the NPC does not have to stand there all day.

And if the summoned NPC is not codewise "clanned" then he wont mindlessly assist people, or join with another NPC and such.  Well, this better stay optional though.
And well, the NPC should not be commandable, to leave the sparring hall as well.

I dont know how hard it is to code something like this, I have no idea about coding.  But it looks possible.

[Cavus]

In addition:

NPC can check HP of himself and HP of PC at every tick. Whenever HP is below some percentage, NPC can flee.


This may solve death problems.

[Anonymous]

Didn't one clan have some sparring NPCs as recently as a year or so ago but they were taken out because people kept killing them?

[Tamarin]

I don't even need to read this thread.

No.

There are plenty of killable npcs in the wilds, as well as live PCs to spar.

[eska]

I'm totally with that idea. It'd be very nice for the bored members of the clans. Also an addition to Ghost's idea. There's one more thing to be considered.. The sparring times. Well.. you shouldn't be able to spar all the day long. There are scheduled times for someone to spar as a part of their training. Thus I thought if Ghost's idea "call" for sparring will be put into Arm as an active command, then it also needs to be considering the time. For instance: No clans have training in weekends as far as I know. So when it's detal or ocandra that command shouldn't work. It will also work for the sparring hours of a week day.

[Tamarin]

Honestly, I don't see what all your problems are.  Nearly 80% of my PCs have been warriors, and not once have I had a shortage of players to spar with.  I've played in the Byn, Tor, Borsail, Winrothol, Tenneshi, the Guild...two of my independent nomads even had tons of sparring partners.

For Krath's sake...if you are finding that there is no one to spar with, and you need an NPc, you aren't looking hard enough.

Sparring is not the be all and end all of roleplay.  It is a tool to get your skills up, for the most part.  If you are sparring with an NPC, you cannot simply initiate the spar and sit there and watch.  That would be twinky, so you'd have to emote.  Now, since it's an NPC, will it emote?  No, of course not, unless a staff makes it his avatar.  This is, then, basically solo RP.

Solo RP.

Solo RP.

Solo[/i] RP.

SOLO[/i][/u] RP.

I think you get the point: if you're going to solo roleplay, you don't fucking need an NPC partner.  Just solo RP.  I used to do this, creating VNPC opponents, and every time, I would get positive imm comments.

Again: there are lots of people sparring.  Go find them.

Furthermore: if you are sparring against an NPC, you have to do all the RP.  The only difference between that an no NPC is skill points, which in my opinion, does not justify this.

[sarahjc]

I say yes and no to this only because of the ability to twink skills against the NPC. Also the idea of the game is to role play, not twink out your skills. Which is essentially what the NPC will do. We already have the sparring dummy for fighting which I think works fine and isn't as "effective" as a sparring NPC. The unfair advantage that such an NPC would give to clanned employees would be too much.

The only way I would think this sort of thing is OK is if it were only for clans that are restricted to the city.  My reasoning for that is because, these can sometimes be the least populated clans, and yet are the clans that are supposed to be the most well trained and the PC's can very often get little coded training. I would also restrict it as I would the sparring dummies, by having it available in the mornings only.  However I would make the skill of the NPC pretty low, so that after a person is past the fledging stage, they shouldn't be able to use it effectively.

The reasoning for the exemption is that clans that allow hunting and independents get their fill of coded fighting with things that are tougher than them. And their skill in fighting will often increase much faster than those in a dormant city clan.  The City Noble house clans and the Templarete clans are supposed to be the best armed and best trained. But instead they can end up getting their ass kicked by an independent playing just as long.

But those are just my thoughts.

[Ghost]

I don't even need to read this thread.

No.

There are plenty of killable npcs in the wilds, as well as live PCs to spar.

I think either you or me is missing the point.

The topic of this thread is about clanned PC's lack of coded sparring.  The fact that there are killable NPCs in the wild does not justify it.  Since how many of the clan members/recruits are allowed to leave the city alone?  And how many are allowed to do it, on the idea of sparring?  When you say "I want to spar" and leave the city for it, you are ICly plain dumb because virtually there are many guards/recruits there you could spar with.  It is just that they all exist virtually.  Now if you ask, what is the reason then we should do it codewise, rather than RPwise, is kind of explained in my first post.  No need to mention here again.

Furthermore, sparrable NPC is not a sparrable person RP wise.  When you attack an NPC with the idea to "spar" that NPC does not get it.  In its own opinion, it is fighting back to death.  If you leave the city, and find a killable NPC and attack, and after some beating each other, you flee, the NPC will follow you and continue attacking you.  Till, either you, or it is dead.  So it is not sparring, but hunting an NPC.

Now, since it's an NPC, will it emote? No, of course not, unless a staff makes it his avatar. This is, then, basically solo RP.

Solo RP.
..
.

Yes.  I agree.  You are right there.  But I would prefer, having a live opponent rather than emoting there is one, and I would prefer not to emote he is hitting me, but to see he is hitting me.  And then I would prefer, that I would get the benefit of actually sparring with someone else, since I am doing that boring chore (Yes..I think sparring is one of the most boring chore ever) .  If I have to spend nearly each IG morning to high sun, inside a hall, alone, and sparring and I am not going to gain anything from it, than there is not a reason to stay logged in during that time for me.  I would much rather quit, and come back after that, and thus my char would handle his virtual spar all virtually.

I say yes and no to this only because of the ability to twink skills against the NPC. Also the idea of the game is to role play, not twink out your skills.

Yes, Sarah, you are right as well.  I have mentioned it as well before.  But considering over all, I think we will always have twinks making their way one way or the other.  We had all the threads about "spam hunters", and there is the fact of people going to labyrinth just to attack NPCs for it.  If the guy is a twink, he will already find a way to do it, so there is not much harm this way I think.

[Larrath]

I'm going to be another naysayer here.

First of all, if a clan does not have enough players in it, I believe the players who do play in that clan should get out and find more players and recruit them ICly into the clan.
When I played a House Guard, I'd talk to every martially-looking person he saw and liked about working in his House, and sometimes he'd even chase people around a little.  It was more fun than it sounds.

Second, I don't see why these NPCs are really needed.  As far as I understand, most city-only clans have a training dummy which allows a lot of training, even if it is limited.  (Of course, let's not forget that nobody gets offensive training every single sparring-day without a dummy, so it kinda balances out).  If your clan is SO dead that you can go for a week and a half of playing regularly and not having a single spar, I suggest talking to your clan imm.

Let's not forget, after all, that skills -can- be increased if there is enough reason for it...and even though I'm not a judge here, I'd say that a militia PC who goes through three virtual spars every playing day for an RL month is good enough reason for some skill bumpings (as long as proper logs are sent, mind you).


So that's it.  Try to find new players and try to let the slightly worse fighting skills go.  If it's getting to an unrealistic point, you can talk to your clan imm and see if they can set up some training sessions using an NPC, or to simply increase your skill if it's a more extreme case.


I'm a player who plays five hundred hours a day.  With training NPCs, I'd have a half-maxed warrior after a week of playing, and nobody wants that.  Not the raiders I'd run into, not the assassins who could be sent after my sorry ass, and not the animated gith that managed to sneak into the wagon.
Sorry, but no.

[jmordetsky]

I'm in favour of anything allows me to boost my stats without putting my character in any real danger.

I've always found it a tad silly that I could be in the Wyverns for like 2 years, but if no one else ever logs in my char still licks nutz in a fight.

Imms can boost your score if you're consistent in your virtual training, but that doesn't mean they will prior to you getting mauled by a tregil....

I used to be against sparring dummies. Mostly because I had a good deal off success with Imms watching and joining my solo RP training session and may or may not have boosted my skills. The fact that 5 out of 10 time they joined them made the sessions worthwhile.

But then I've also heard a few stories about people who have logged hours of virtual training sessions, forgotten or had yet to email them to their imms and then at some point had been forcibly penetrated by a Jozhal because code wise, they'd never seen a sword.

Not a pretty sight friends, not a pretty sight.

One or two training NPCs deployed durring non-peek hours and have a cap on how far you can take your training doesn't strike me as an awful idea.

It's twinkable, but so is everything else, thats what Halaster is for. For eating twinks.

Also, having tougher leadership chars (who often start in clans alone) helps get clans off their feet, by giving newer players some security on cool outings and the like.

Solo RP.

Solo RP.

Solo[/i] RP.

SOLO[/i][/u] RP.

Whats the difference between solo RPing and an IMM boosting you and solo RPing and a coded NPC boosting you? Besides the first option being completely unscalable?


*shrug* I don't know. At the same time, it ain't broke, so maybe just leave it be.




EDITTED FOR ADDITONAL SCHTUFF

[eska]

Please consider these two cases please:

Let's think, a guy took a two-year training in a city-restricted clan. After that training that guy should be a bad-ass warrior. And in his third year an independent hunter decides to join that clan. That guy OOCly cheers up as he sees new coming PC. At their first spar, the hunter gives our should-be-good guy a damn beating. Why? Is it the lack of RP skills of our guy? No. It's because he solo RP'ed most of his sparrings.

Or think there is no new comer. After his second year he leaves the city for a mission for his clan. And, in his very first mission outside the city, our well-trained guy loses his head at the first attack.

Why?

[Maybe42or54]

If you Rp it out a lot. Send the logs to the mud. They just might boost your skill a lot of you RP correctly.

[Bestatte]

Uh - that independent ranger situation doesn't wash. I played a tribal ranger type, and in order to play it realistically there was no way in hell I'd be able to hunt as often as people spar with dummies.

After 65 days of playing that character, over a 9-month real-life period, I could -barely- hold my own against a raptor.  Hunters don't hunt from dawn til dusk every day but two each week. Hunters hunt when they're hungry, when they need a few sids by selling stuff off, and that's it.  If they're hunting THAT often, then they're hunting WAY more than any hunter would ever need to hunt, and personally I'd be calling "twink" pretty quick.

People in coded clans within cities USUALLY have sparring dummies, and they're allowed to make use of them all but 2 days out of the game-week (meaning - all but 2 hours out of the RL day).  Sure it would be nice to have the dummy fight back once in awhile. But I hardly think it's necessary, or even something that's "lacking" in the game.

[Tamarin]

He said indy hunter, Bestatte.  Not indy ranger.  You can have an indy hunter-warrior, and they get pretty fucking strong.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Let's think, a guy took a two-year training in a city-restricted clan. After that training that guy should be a bad-ass warrior. And in his third year an independent hunter decides to join that clan. That guy OOCly cheers up as he sees new coming PC. At their first spar, the hunter gives our should-be-good guy a damn beating. Why? Is it the lack of RP skills of our guy? No. It's because he solo RP'ed most of his sparrings.

Why should he be a bad-ass warrior?  Because he sparred for two years without ever actually tasting true combat?  That doesn't make anyone bad-ass.

If someone trains for two years and then dies on their first mission, it's not unrealistic.  It's because that person didn't have any actual experience.  He panicked when he realized that he might die that day.  He got a case of combat paralysis that can only really be shaken off by actually risking your life a few times.

If I had it my way, the hunter would kick the ass of the guy sitting on his ass in the city every time, because the hunter is a veteran and the guy in the clan is just some wet-behind-the-ears welp that's never even seen a battle.

So no, I don't think there should be more situations where people have a chance to magickally get bad-ass without ever risking their lives.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

I'm with ERS, here.  If I was trained by raptors and gith, then you better expect me to come in and mash your tater, especially if you've spent the past two years gumming on a Byn Love Doll.  

I hate sparring and usually find ways to avoid it the few times I was in a situation where I had to.    

I don't really agree that after two years in any clan you should expect to be a bad-ass anything.  The only true badasses I've known in Arm over the past four years have been PCs with at least a decade into them.  

I voted no on sparring NPCs.   I've seen a doofus almost kill himself (seriously!) on a sparring dummy and they don't even hit back.   If you want to learn to be the deadliest warrior in the land, go out and learn to kill from the killers.

[Spoon]

I hate sparring

This sums up my thoughts. I don't hate the RP it generates, but I hate the serious twinkage it lets some people get away with. Sparring NPC's is just  like publishing the magick code for the "advanced end the universe" spell, but for warriors.

I mean, I've had what should be a veteran mercenary smack the shit out of a new recruit, and then not be able to touch them just *TWO RL DAYS* afterwards. This is was made even more annoying by the other PC not being able to roleplay themselves out of a paper bag. There really should be some kind of filter on how much you can learn over a certain period of time.

However, I'm up for sparring dummies and sparring NPC's that don't improve character's combat skills, or do so VERY little, to aid solo RP.

The problem is, everyone wants to be Conan and whup everyones ass with their insane combat skills because   they wasted more of their life sparring coded lumps of text than everyone else.

[Akaramu]

There really should be some kind of filter on how much you can learn over a certain period of time.

There isnt?  :shock:

[ashyom]

Warning: long post.
I've been following this thread for a few days, and it's also been a subject of discussion for staff.  These are my personal thoughts and observations - not necessarily Staff's on whole.  

While I do appreciate the desire for players to improve their characters' skills - I too feel that way with my own chars - I'm not convinced that making NPCs solely to spar in order to gain skills is the right way to arrive at this goal.  

Here are a few select quotes that I agreed and disagreed with (amongst many).

I'm in favour of anything allows me to boost my stats without putting my character in any real danger.

This raised a red flag for me.  Sparring is dangerous.  I've seen a number of PCs get seriously injured and even killed.  On the flip side, I do understand the desire to be able to hold your own while fighting another character of similar background and playtime.

So no, I don't think there should be more situations where people have a chance to magickally get bad-ass without ever risking their lives.

I agree.  This is just an easy way out.

People in coded clans within cities USUALLY have sparring dummies, and they're allowed to make use of them all but 2 days out of the game-week (meaning - all but 2 hours out of the RL day). Sure it would be nice to have the dummy fight back once in awhile.

However, I'm up for sparring dummies and sparring NPC's that don't improve character's combat skills, or do so VERY little, to aid solo RP.

Right.  We could in theory set up "sparring partners" npcs to function like this - fightable, but your skills would still not improve.  That might be a possible middle ground.  The dummies are intended to be RP tools, and do not help skills gain.  I think a number of staff would be comfortable with this, but it still wouldn't achieve the objective of codedly improving your skills.

As a number of players have repeatedly said, there are always ways to practice your skills.  If you can't go out of the city and you are in a clan, help recruit people for your boss to interview and hire.  Or ask your superior for permission to solicit other clans in friendly matches.  Or break a few rules, take a risk, go somewhere isolated with a buddy ...  The possiblities are endless.  Just because you are the sole guard PC in Clan X, doesn't mean you're stuck by yourself.
__________
On a slight tangent:
I recently posted in a clan forum where their member(s) were asking why they couldn't spar with the existing clan NPCs, and it's somewhat related to this thread's topic.  I thought I'd quote it here, and perhaps some of you will see yet another argument against this

...this policy of deterring sparring with clan npcs[sic] is pretty much universal...

You have no idea what that NPC's personality is like. Would he actually participate in sparring or not? He might not because he has duty soon, or is feeling sick, or just plain doesn't like you. For that reason, you should not make assumptions that he would.

...If you engage in combat without acquiring permission from your combatant first, it would be seen as hostile. RP'ing it out by yourself isn't kosher since you unfortunately can't see the NPC's background/personality and know whether s/he would do this.

Let's put it in a different perspective. Suppose! You were linkdead in the sparring arena, and a new guard PC comes along and decides you can spar with him, even though you're linkdead. He decides this for you. He might make a token gesture and say, "Let's spar, ok?" and he imagined that you nodded and maybe danced a little jig with joy at the thought of being pummeled into pulp. Then he starts to kick the crap out of you. Normally, your character would respond somehow...but s/he can't without a puppeteer (you) to control him. If this were me, I would be pretty pissed if I came back to see my character was badly hurt, or worse, dead. While this isn't exactly the same as a NPC coded to spar*, it's basically the same principle.

*Clarification - As suggested by a couple players, yes we could code in restrictions to force npcs to behave differently under certain circumstances.
I've brought up a new perspective.  Thoughts?
-Ashyom

[tortall]

I know you guys keep saying recruit more people if you really want to spar, but it's not always that easy.

One of my favorite clans is Kadius, and to be quite honest not many people(espacally fighters) want to play in a silk selling merchent house. Sure it's easy for the noble houses to recruit people, or atleast the ones who have a military background like Tor, Borsail, or Winrothal. Even Salarr can recruit easy(er) because then you get cheap armor and weapons.

Then the other problem of finding someone to actually code recruit you. This can be a pain in the butt, espacally if someone SAYS they can recruit you, but code wise they're not allowed to. And Mr. Merchent does't always have time to come along every time theres a new hunter that wants to join because he's busy selling silk to nobles.

I personally like the idea of sparring NPCs, though the dummy is actually a nice middle ground.


-Tortall, who should really be taking a shower right now.