Sparring NPCs?

[Ghost]

..Or break a few rules, take a risk, go somewhere isolated with a buddy ...  The possiblities are endless.  Just because you are the sole guard PC in Clan X, doesn't mean you're stuck by yourself.

I have witnessed some PCs breaking the rules over it.  Well, RPwise, it is meaningless, because he could as well spar with the virtual guards of the House.  So what the player is doing seems heavily on OOC purposes.

...this policy of deterring sparring with clan npcs[sic] is pretty much universal...

You have no idea what that NPC's personality is like. Would he actually participate in sparring or not? He might not because he has duty soon, or is feeling sick, or just plain doesn't like you. For that reason, you should not make assumptions that he would.

But there is not one NPC or vNPC around.  If the number of the guards, the House holds is few, then yes.  It would be possible not to be able to find one.  But in Byn, for example, the virtual population should be around five hundred.  In some noble houses, it goes up to thousands.  While not all of them might be avaliable, or willing for it, the chances are high you would find one.

...If you engage in combat without acquiring permission from your combatant first, it would be seen as hostile. RP'ing it out by yourself isn't kosher since you unfortunately can't see the NPC's background/personality and know whether s/he would do this.

Well yes.  But in a pool of guards, going over a hundred or more, you should be able to pick one clanmate at least once in an IG morning.  We cant just assume all the popuation is against you, all the time.  That is why, actually, asking for sparrable NPCs, who would represent that "willing" part.

Actually, for me, it does not matter.  I dont see anywhere soon, playing a house guard at all.  But well.. I think it would be better to see such a change added..

Ohh... On the side note:

Actually, if I know it well, your skill cant go much over if you dont "fail" in the skill.  So this will solve the problem of people -maxing- it out.  Just consider a level that a PC should be able to gain from sparring NPCs, and set the NPC skills according to that level.   So if I am already better than the NPC, it would not make much difference to spar with him or not.

[Spoon]

There really should be some kind of filter on how much you can learn over a certain period of time.

There isnt?  :shock:

Are we allowed to know this, or is it top secret staff stuff that no one knows (like the syntax for playing on the hardscrabble)?

OR did I completely misunderstand the shock emoticon and you actually meant:

There isn't? :ofcoursethereisyouignoranttwat:

In which case, forget this post. :oops:

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Sandstorm Phoenix wrote:

I'm with ERS, here. If I was trained by raptors and gith, then you better expect me to come in and mash your tater, especially if you've spent the past two years gumming on a Byn Love Doll.

Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with this. A raptor isn't going to reach for his cloak pocket and throw a dagger between your eyes, and a gith isn't likely to jump on his inix and charge you down with a backsword. Fighting humanoids is quite different from fighting wild animals, and both require practice and study if you want to be any good at it. It's just some bizarre quirk of the code that makes it so that the more you beat up on tregils, the better you'll get at beating on Byn Runners or gith raiders or bahamets.
Personally, I'm a strong advocate of PC-to-PC sparring. Some of my most enjoyable RP experiences ever centered around sparring. I know when most people thinking "sparring", they envision two twink Byn Runners, hacking one another to near death, taking a nap in the middle of the training room, then getting up and going at it again. Well, I assure you that is not the norm. Any decent sparring I've seen is filled with battle-EMOTEs (more than I've ever seen some one put in while fighting a vestric, but I digress), lessons, lectures, scolding, bullying, and the occasional life-threatening accident. Sparring is a great RP oppurtunity, and what's more, it is ALL you will ever need to increase your combat skills. I don't think sparring NPCs is neccesarry. PC-to-PC sparring already gives you a very good chance to increase your skills, and we don't really need more avenues for that. Conversely, if sparring with an NPC was implemented so that it has no effect on skills, then how is it any different from sparring with VNPCs (something you can DEFINETLY do already, BTW)?
In conclusion, sparring is more than a chance to a get teh l337 c0mb@t sl<i11z, yo. If you don't enjoy it, fine, then you're free to avoid situations where you'd have to do it. But please don't knock it for those of us that actually enjoy it as a roleplay experience.

[Ghost]

I don't think sparring NPCs is neccesarry. PC-to-PC sparring already gives you a very good chance to increase your skills, and we don't really need more avenues for that. Conversely, if sparring with an NPC was implemented so that it has no effect on skills, then how is it any different from sparring with VNPCs (something you can DEFINETLY do already, BTW)?

Good post 5DMW.  But here, the idea is not to knock off the PC-vs-PC, but to add also NPC vs PC, when there is not any PC around.  
Yes, if there are PCs around, PC vs PC is enough.  But there are clans that have only a few guards, and they log in at different hours, so that the training times pass alone in PC terms.  I have a friend, who once complained, that he has vNPC sparring clanmates, and he has their names, shortdesc, even he is planning to add up their personalities.  Well.. That is kind of the case that NPC clanmates will come in handy.

It is at best, that PCs go on sparring among themselves, and only call the NPCs, when no one is around.  I dont think it will harm PC to PC interaction at any level.

[joyofdiscord]

There really should be some kind of filter on how much you can learn over a certain period of time.

There isnt?  :shock:

Are we allowed to know this, or is it top secret staff stuff that no one knows (like the syntax for playing on the hardscrabble)?

It's been well-documented on this board, including by IMMs if I remember correctly, so I don't think it's a big secret, but yes, there are anti-twinking measures to limit how fast skills can improve.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Ghost wrote:

But here, the idea is not to knock off the PC-vs-PC, but to add also NPC vs PC, when there is not any PC around.
Yes, if there are PCs around, PC vs PC is enough. But there are clans that have only a few guards, and they log in at different hours, so that the training times pass alone in PC terms.

This is something, I feel, could be solved by having more people in clans. Clan membership is a complex topic in and of itself, and I don't want to clutter up the thread with it.
My point is, I would rather see this issue addressed in other ways, instead of tossing out more training dummies or NPCs for us to fight.
Training dummies, I have learned, are very poor conversationists.

[Tamarin]

moved to derailment.

[Rhyden]

Um, simply, plainly and utterly...no.

Way too many people would powergame. If you want to, emote-spar with a VNPC.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

A raptor isn't going to reach for his cloak pocket and throw a dagger between your eyes, and a gith isn't likely to jump on his inix and charge you down with a backsword.

Neither will sparring dummies, sparring partners, or sparring VNPCs - unless you're engaged in the absurdity of "practicing backstab."   And gith are humanoid.  While they might not charge an inix at you, anyone who has been out of the sparring closet and into the wild enough to encounter them will know they can surprise you.

I do agree with the Monkeys that sparring can be a rich and rewarding roleplaying experience.   So can sitting in a cave alone creating an epic love story with your virtual pet iguanas.   So can playing a dwarf with the focus of "kill all the mean things."   In my experience, that roleplaying sparring circle utopia is the exception rather than the rule.   I'll still "knock it" because I see it as an easy, risk-free way to pump yourself up without ever facing any dangerous situation.  And I guess I'm just elitist enough of a bastard to sneer at anyone taking the quick and easy path.   I sure don't want to make it any easier than it already is.

[Anael]

No.
I am an off-peak player, and have some experience playing a clanned combat-type without a permission to go out and hunt things. There are workarounds, and it's more fun trying to find those than just mindless spar spar spar. I like spars with some people, with others it's just... necessary. That's all.
Also, I strongly disagree with people claiming a year or two of whacking your friends with a padded wooden sword makes you a kickass warrior. Its not real combat experience. You'd proably get pretty good at the basics, but getting any further would take a lot of time and training. The fact hunters have 'easier life' getting their combat skills higher seemes perfectly fine to me. They risk more.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

They risk more.

Thank you, Anael, that is better at summing up my feelings than my own posts did.   Greater risk should net greater gain.

[Delirium]

They risk more.

Thank you, Anael, that is better at summing up my feelings than my own posts did.   Greater risk should net greater gain.

Agreed. Also, if your character is taking regular risks with their life, it only makes surviving for a good length of time all that more impressive. It means you likely had some wits and resources other than a high slashing and parrying skill.

Though I did like the Byn lovedoll comment.

[Anonymous]

Its not real combat experience. You'd proably get pretty good at the basics, but getting any further would take a lot of time and training.

This maybe true if you simply spar, but you also receive detailed training from your superiors: lessons. Those should shape the underlings into well-trained units. I understand that some figures in leadership roles may fail to emphasize this part of training, which can be enjoyable for both parties and does not necessarily revolve around parrying.....

Sa'alam,

Dirr

[LoD_Snarf]

Many of the notions being presented regarding sparrable NPC's and frustration over your coded ability not seeming like an appropriate reflection of your PC's investment have been brought up time and time again.

Obviously, any sparrable NPC that yielded skill returns to the PC would swiftly be abused and removed.  This just isn't ever going to happen because players, regardless of their good intentions, will eventually rationalize why they should be able to exploit something in the game.  Thus, it is best (and easiest) to remove these temptations rather than try and moderate their abuse.

The contention that a given clan's lack of active PC's is a direct cause of your PC's lack of skill is just a lazy claim.  A clan's success will always be an almost direct reflection upon the work of its leader, be that person PC or Imm.  If your clan seems to be having trouble keeping the interest of its players, not recruiting enough and having sporadic motivation, chances are it's being poorly led.

Any clan I've made an effort to run has had many successful and talented combat characters (not mine) come up as a result, because I made an effort to recognize that desire in the playerbase.  The desire to improve.  You then take that desire and you mesh it with a realistic plan that adheres to the rules of the gameworld and that's all you need to do.  Nothing is going to come quickly, or without the potential for danger, frustration or annoyance, but it will come.

Armageddon, and any game that we invest our time in, operates with the understanding that there's a relationship between realism and playability.  We aren't forced to go to the bathroom, because it's not the reason we're playing the game.  We aren't forced to sleep every 16 hours because it's not why we're playing the game.  There are lines drawn around every action that have an extreme realistic angle and an extreme playable angle.

You might be able to hunt and kill every single living NPC in a 50 x 50 grid of land if you had the ability.  Do you?  You shouldn't.  Because realism dictates you'd be overhunting and going against what most would consider a natural balance established by a hunting society and its prey.  However, do you log in for 8 hours and only kill 2 duskhorn and call it a day?  Perhaps, but my guess is that you'd rather make a hunting trip maybe 4 out of those 8 hours to play our your role.

We all play for different reasons, and the people that hunt and kill or spar in their barracks are likely wanting to see some tangible or recognizeable return on their investment of time and energy.  The tools required to see that investment are in the game and available for use at appropriate levels.  Whether you understand enough to find that balance is generally what these posts are all about.  People who are trying to find a balanced way to see returns that mirror the amount of time they've dedicated to a role.

Leadership and the knowledge of what players want and how to deliver it to them is the one answer I've ever found to be successful in a group environment.  So, either step up and become one of these or find one.

-LoD

[Akaramu]

I dont really see the problem.

If you find it hard to catch other clan PCs to spar with during the times you play, go to the training room and either spar a VNPC or, if you detest solo rp, change ldesc to reflect your training and go get a cup of coffee. I have been in that kind of situation more than once, and the clan imms have always boosted my combat skills to match the virtual training. Of course, if your PC never actually goes to the training room and stays there, but sits in taverns instead, they might not feel the urge to adjust your skills.  :wink:

That much for skill adjustment.

As for roleplay, sparring with a NPC isnt any more boring or interesting than sparring with a VNPC. Both dont emote unless you make them. That being said, what justifies the existence of a sparring NPC?