Instant gender detection through emotes

[Deva]

I have seen this happen over and over again for some time now.

If there is a PC with no clearly male or female features in mdesc or sdesc, why do people instantly jump to adress them by their gender after seeing a 'his / her' when an inventory object is targeted through an emote?

It is starting to bother me a little. The 'hints' given in emotes are clearly OOC. Please dont make your character jump from 'miss' to 'mister' instantly after seeing such an emote. Or the other way round.

I realize there are possibilities to figure out the gender IC, or just have your PC guess into the blue, but going from 'man' to 'woman' within minutes simply because of an emote is a bit weird, and disappointing for the player of the androgynous character if the gender confusion is part of their play concept.

I realize there would be no problem if the player of the 'genderless' PC simply stopped targeting inventory objects in their emotes, and wrote them in a way to avoid any his / her reference - but this is sometimes incredibly hard to do, and easy to forget even if the intent is there.

Food for thought. And hoping this will make some players reconsider their mindbender-like instant gender detection skillz. =)

[DrunkenSalarr]

Or it could simply be that the person is calling it as they see it, not really caring about hurting feelings.  If I've made up my mind as to what you are, that's what you are until you correct me (and maybe not even then).  I've come across characters like this before and sometimes I will speciffically call them using the incorrect gender.


Also, it is in your best interst not to assume that "the bald headed templar" is a male. *snicker* (this character has been dead many RL years, but was fun to RP with since everyone kept calling her "my Lord Templar")

[Cavus]

Did you try this code:

> asses -v templar


By using this you can get lots of usefull information including he/she

[InsertCleverNameHere]

Did you try this code:

> asses -v templar


By using this you can get lots of usefull information including he/she

You can. But I think the point is, just because the code says so, doesn't mean you should automaticly assume you know what it tells you. Like, say you have a half-elf, who's every bit as skinny and tall as a full elf. Ears are just as sharp, etc. Not a single thing points to the fact they're not a full blooded elf, except for assess -v elf done by a full-blooded elf. Or vice-versa, a half that looks like a human and who's passing themselves off as such to get a job only a full-blood could have, but an assess tells you otherwise, and you immediately start accusing them of being an imposter.. Yes, they -are- an imposter, but you shouldn't know that.

I don't remember what the thread was on or where it is, but I read something similar to this discussion before. Something about a six year old little girl who was.. some sort of demon? And the assess -v showed 'looks young for their race'. But anyway. The assess -v is very useful, but just because it says the exact gender and hints to race, doesn't mean your PC automatically should be able to guess if it isn't even vaguely obvious.

[Deva]

Or it could simply be that the person is calling it as they see it, not really caring about hurting feelings

Yes, thats possible. But in the example I mentioned there was a person first referring to the PC as 'man', then maybe a minute afterwards, after seeing an emote with a targeted item from inventory, changed it to 'woman'. That was just odd.

Also there have been other instances where people acted like they were absolutely sure without a doubt, and even corrected others who were unsure. And always after seeing an emote that OOCly gave a hint about gender.

[Bestatte]

I'd like to add something in defense of assess -v

I don't wanna look at the templar because I don't want to risk making eye contact - since my character tries to avoid trouble. But just in case that templar talks to me first, I wanna make sure I address the templar appropriately. So.. I assess -v to find out the gender. And if that templar addresses me first, I can now say (keeping her gaze respectfully lowered to the ground) Yes, Lord Templar.  ...and not risk his ire by referring to him as Lady.

Another example:

I've been looking for a short, young, male elf who killed one of my millions of mudsex partners - this one having been one of the better emoters in the bunch. But I think it's crazy to "look" at every hooded figure who walks into the room just to find out if that's the one, because I hate the look echo. So I "assess -v" them instead - and rule out any hooded figure that's "mature" (or older) for his race, female, "much" taller than I am, or the same race as me.

It makes good IC sense to me, because my character wouldn't suspect any of those people I am ruling out as the one who killed my mudsex partner and would only really notice the ones who *might* fit the general size, shape, gender, and race. That's when I'd take a "look" to try and peek under their hood, or observe their clothing or behavior or mannerisms.

[Bestatte]

Or it could simply be that the person is calling it as they see it, not really caring about hurting feelings

Yes, thats possible. But in the example I mentioned there was a person first referring to the PC as 'man', then maybe a minute afterwards, after seeing an emote with a targeted item from inventory, changed it to 'woman'. That was just odd.

Also there have been other instances where people acted like they were absolutely sure without a doubt, and even corrected others who were unsure. And always after seeing an emote that OOCly gave a hint about gender.

The only times I recall this ever happening with me, was when the character had an sdesc of being one gender *specifically* and the player was of the other gender and goofed in their emote. Or maybe they had recently played a long-lived character of the other gender and is still adjusting to playing the "other other" gender.

I usually assume that's what is happening, because that's the only time I've ever seen it happen before. I never assume someone is targetting ~knife because I am one of the people who might occasionally type out the entire knife's description rather than use ~, if my hood is up and don't want to be identified. I'd type:

pemote head swivels slowly to gaze over the crowd, fingertips on the hilt of the jagged obsidian longknife hanging from the figure's belt.

And unless someone assesses or actually looks at me, no one will know which gender I am.

[Xamminy]

In defense of NOT using assess -v to get information...

Has anyone noticed that a city elf or desert elf, when assessing one of the other, will get the 'mature for his race' instead of 'older than you' message as if they were truly a different race (which they're not)?

Assess'ing someone to get race or gender when they are protraying something rather than relying on code, and you ignore the roleplay in favor of code, you're kinda forgetting the spirit of the game.

...also, if you are playing a character that is trying to conceal his/her gender, keep in mind that simply concealing yourself so that you're a figure isn't generally enough to maintain any disguise.  As soon as you speak, in most cases, your cover is blown.

[Bestatte]

What Xamminy said.

But also, to clarify: I don't use assess -v to identify someone, necessarily. I use it to decide whether or not I want to LOOK at them, which will THEN let me identify them (or not).

If assess -v shows they're older than me, or not the same race, and I know the person I'm looking for is the same age, or a half-elf, then I don't think using the "look" command should be necessary - and assess -v will give me a general idea without having to spam the room with look echoes every time a hooded figure walks into the room.

[wizturbo]

...also, if you are playing a character that is trying to conceal his/her gender, keep in mind that simply concealing yourself so that you're a figure isn't generally enough to maintain any disguise.  As soon as you speak, in most cases, your cover is blown.

The common person throwing on new clothes with a hood would experience this, yes.  But is it reasonable to assume someone who ACTIVELY is trying to disguise their voice patterns and mannerisms go undetected?  That doesn't mean everyone is capable of doing such on a long-term basis, but there are some people very much attuned to linguistics, and very much attuned to...acting...basically.  It shouldn't be assumed that you can always recognize someone's voice.

From real life experience, I had a friend in High school who actually convinced our entire social group he was someone else, by disguising himself and using his acting skills.  It was incredible.  I didn't realize it was him, even though he was milling around and interacting with us all, and we see the guy every single day.  This is not an impossible feat for talented individuals.

[Raesanos]

I don't think its any stretch to think that someone could identify someone's gender without taking a close look.  If you noticed that someone "emote throws ~cat out the window" you were probably seeing them well enough to identify their gender. Its not like its some kind of secret.

[Xamminy]

How many people, really, are so talented to change the timber of their voice so that you can't identify them by it?  Not many.  How many people will be able to hear the false timbre except from those prodigies at changing their voice?  A LOT.

[flurry]

Other players might not realize your PC is supposed to be androgynous.   There are quite a few PCs who don't have gender in their sdesc, but in most cases I don't think it's supposed to be a mystery.   So unless given a reason to think otherwise, players might figure your PC's gender is apparent.

I do recall one (very cleverly played) PC who was intentionally androgynous.   In that case, there were lots of indications (clothing, main desc, sdesc, emotes) that it was supposed to be unclear.   Knowing that it wasn't supposed to be obvious, it was fun to play along.

So it's possible that other players might not realize it's supposed to be a mystery.

[wizturbo]

How many people, really, are so talented to change the timber of their voice so that you can't identify them by it?  Not many.  How many people will be able to hear the false timbre except from those prodigies at changing their voice?  A LOT.

Armageddon characters often have some kind of extraordinary skills that they can develop over time.  Being able to survive more than thirty-seconds versus a charging mekillot for instance, is a feat that not many could do.  Yet in Arm, plenty of PC's can.  I don't see someone training their voice to change its timber to be more outrageous then those circumstances, nor the dozens and dozens of virtually impossible feats that are accomplished everyday in Zalanthas.

[Cuusardo]

A tip:

If you are playing a character that is supposed to be androgynous, include "its" in your emotes rather than he or she, or just leaving them out all together.

Instead of "The androgynous human shakes head," type "The androgynous human shakes its head."  I've also seen one particular androgynous character who wore both womens' and mens' clothing use he and she for its emotes.  You've got to have something in there rather than just leaving the entire words out.

[flurry]

Use of "they" and "their" as singular pronouns is another option as well.  (e.g. "The hooded figure coughs repeatedly as they amble through the hall.")

[Xygax]

A tip:

If you are playing a character that is supposed to be androgynous, include "its" in your emotes rather than he or she, or just leaving them out all together.

Instead of "The androgynous human shakes head," type "The androgynous human shakes its head."  I've also seen one particular androgynous character who wore both womens' and mens' clothing use he and she for its emotes.  You've got to have something in there rather than just leaving the entire words out.

Though this is a good suggestion, I believe the original poster's concern is that if you type in the following emote:

Code Select Expand

:tugs awkwardly at ~shirt.

The resulting emote to the room appears as:

Code Select Expand

The androgynous human tugs awkwardly at her ragged, linen shirt.

And that, as a point of courtesy and roleplay, it would be nice if people would try to ignore those "his" and "her" insertions where it is otherwise clear that the gender of this individual isn't meant to be clear.

I agree.

-- X

[Raesanos]

To make sure its clear, some staff do have varying opinions on this and there is no official stance on it, so such opinions are just that.  Just wanted to make sure that no one is confused.  I encourage everybody to play in the way they feel is most appropriate in these situations.  I think its interesting to see different people's angles on how to best handle this kind of situation.

[Cuusardo]

Use of "they" and "their" as singular pronouns is another option as well.  (e.g. "The hooded figure coughs repeatedly as they amble through the hall.")

They and their applies to a group of people, not a single individual.  "The hooded figure coughs repeatedly as they amble through the hall." is horribly BAD grammar.

[Marauder Moe]

I always figured that even a coded gender really just corresponds to outward appearance.  It should reflect your best guess as to what said character LOOKS (or sounds) like.  If your androgenous but slightly feminine-looking PC has a suprise in his/her pants then emote it during mudsex, but pick female as coded gender.

[flurry]

They and their applies to a group of people, not a single individual.  "The hooded figure coughs repeatedly as they amble through the hall." is horribly BAD grammar.

It's not horribly bad grammar (at least no worse than using 'it' to refer to a person).   I believe most style guides consider it acceptable to use they and their as a singular pronoun when gender is unknown.  

A couple of links I found interesting on this:
http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19980501
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-the2.htm

[Anael]

I agree with the Xygax. If there is enough hints in PC's description, emotes etc. people should respect that, even when the code reveals the PC's sex. However, it's easy to miss such 'subtle hints'.
If someone just picks the right sex from the beginning, I wouldn't consider it a huge mistake. There's always 50% chance  :wink:

And to add to what flurry said, following link contains -loads- of info on use of singular 'they'/'their'.
http://www.editorscanberra.org/they.htm

[Angela Christine]

Other players might not realize your PC is supposed to be androgynous.   There are quite a few PCs who don't have gender in their sdesc, but in most cases I don't think it's supposed to be a mystery.   So unless given a reason to think otherwise, players might figure your PC's gender is apparent.

I agree.  I once had a young, filthy 'rinther and between being young, underdevoped and covered in 13 years worth of dirt I decided it would be hard to tell her race at first glance, much less her gender.  She couldn't pass for a Man, but she could pass for a Boy.  Nobody really cares about a 'rinth kid's attributes anyway.  So I put in her description that it was difficult to discern her race or gender at first glance.  Most people played along, some calling her "lad" for quite a while despite the fact that I made no particular effort to obfuscate her gender code-wise.  Others "guessed" she was female right away, but since I had said that her gender was ambiguous rather than misleading, it was reasonable that some people would guess female or catch on after a little while.

Likewise, I've had good experiences with half-elves that looked particularily elfie or humanish being treated as elves or humans, at least at first, until they do or say something that hints at impure blood.

In non-stress situations most of the players seem pretty good about playing along with ambiguity.  If you are just sitting around the tavern doing nothing, then playing along tends to be more interesting than quashing the potential mystery.


Angela Chrsitine

[sarahjc]

First I wanted to address using Asses -v. I hate this feature when used for assessments of PC's. And I honestly don't understand why it's in the game. All it does is allow people a chance to look at the probable stats, gender and race of another player.

In an instant, you know that the person is bigger than you, taller than you, older than you, what race they are and what gender. Why do we need this? If the person's description doesn't say these things or you don't get them in the emote system, why do we have them? It just seems to me an easy way to twink out of Rp. I can see it's use in assessing NPC animals or even NPC's. But I can't think of one example in where using asses you are not twinking or avoiding RP in some way. I have never used this feature. It makes me feel bad inside.

Now as for using % ! # ^ and getting the gender Echo.. If it's clear that the person is trying to be androgynous, then yeah..  we should all just play along.

[Rhyden]

Did you try this code:

> asses -v templar


By using this you can get lots of usefull information including he/she

assess -v templar

She looks...
She is...