PermaDeath

[jmordetsky]

We have it, we love it...

But is it what sets us apart from other muds?

It seems to me of late that the "trend" in the mudding world has shifted from huge hack and slash talkies to the Role Play Intensive (RPIs or what the mudconnector calls "Roleplay Enforced").

Having not been in the market for a mud in sometime I started looking at some of the other "Roleplay Enforced" muds via the mudconnectors advanced search option.

I was happy to see that there were alot of them, which is nice....

But there are very few RP muds that have Permadeath....*boggle* How
odd...

Can you really provide RP if death isn't permanent? I think not...

[jhunter]

Can you really provide RP if death isn't permanent? I think not...

Yeah I agree, with no fear of dying because you know OOCLY you'll come back it really would change the way you play I think.

[Angela Christine]

Death is irksome.  Infinite resurections are worse.  The ideal solution would be to not die in the first place, but it is difficult to generate a sense of danger and excitement if people know it is hard to die.

I dislike routine resurections, even if they are given some clunky IC justification.  "Yeah, I got murdered last week, but I'm feeling much better now."  :roll:  Only computers could change something miraculous into something mildly annoying.  It also makes committing an assisination kind of pointless, since all the "important" people (PCs) always get resurected.  You either have the victims immidiately identifying their murderers, or you have to work out some kludgy rule to explain why they do not remember who murdered them, and then go around enforcing the rule since players DO remember who did it even if their PC shouldn't.

On the other hand, constant death cheapens life almost as much as routine resurection.  You wind up with the absurd situation where if someone isn't seen for a couple weeks then everyone assumes they must be dead.  There are people in RL that I haven't seen in 20 years, but I usually assume they are still alive somewhere.  The PC death rate skews the perception of the world: most humans will live into their 50s or 60s so it is very likely that a teenager will have living parents and, yes, even grandparents, but in a PC it is remarkable for them to live 10 years after being possessed by the insane spirit of an Earthling, much less live to see their grandchildren.


Death sucks.


AC

[moab]

Permadeath with access to limited ressurections - for example:

You die.
Your ethereal ghost (or whatever fits in with the theme) lingers around your corpse for awhile.  Maybe some gifted folks can see it, maybe not.

You eventually move to a holding place where you have a limited amount of time to wait for someone to give a crap enough to get you raised.

Friends visit a high-ability cleric / mage or cloning tank or some other device and have you raised.

You take a huge hit in ability, everyone owes everyone and RP continues.

This opens all sorts of cool RP in regard to religion, afterlife, life-long servitude, PC undead creatures and whatnot.

It is very doable, has never been done very well though perhaps one day, someone will.

[Rhyden]

I think the staff of Armageddon strive for absolute realism (ironically this is a fictional world) and not having permadeath is the most unrealistic concept. I think permadeath is what keeps our characters cautious and aware. It keeps the unimaginative players out of our little world and personally, it's why I'm still playing.  :wink:

[wizturbo]

I like perma-death.  Makes the game feel real.

[Savak]

While it's probably POSSIBLE to have a successful, true roleplaying intensive multi-user game out there for an extensive period without permadeath... I do think it is improbable.  Permadeath is the great equalizer, forcing everyone who succumbs to it to "start over."  It also forces people (to some extent) to consider new personalities, new goals, and see new perspectives on the environment.

Without it, from the moment the game opens each player and each character is entering an almost inescapable rut; gathering skills, knowledge, power, money, friends, enemies, etc. with (usually) very few coded or roleplayed "negatives" -- those that existed initially are usually overcome, ignored, or otherwise minimized.

[Ktavialt]

Permadeath with access to limited ressurections - for example:

You die.
Your ethereal ghost (or whatever fits in with the theme) lingers around your corpse for awhile.  Maybe some gifted folks can see it, maybe not.

You eventually move to a holding place where you have a limited amount of time to wait for someone to give a crap enough to get you raised.

Friends visit a high-ability cleric / mage or cloning tank or some other device and have you raised.

You take a huge hit in ability, everyone owes everyone and RP continues.

This opens all sorts of cool RP in regard to religion, afterlife, life-long servitude, PC undead creatures and whatnot.

It is very doable, has never been done very well though perhaps one day, someone will.

Though I'm not very into this idea, I just thought up a neato spell that
would be disgustingly cool. You die, someone casts some spell on you, and
then the staff notifies you via E-mail that said spell was casted on you and
you can return to your character except this time you are a flesh-eating
zombie and I'm not talking those stupid, slow ones from Resident Evil
I'm talking those new Dawn of the Dead or 28 Days Later or whatever it
was the "British" zombies.

After that you gotta kill and feast, kill and feast else you become
extremely slow and weak.

Of course being the living dead won't see faces all you see are these
walking, talking piles of blood pudding just begging you to suck their
brains out, this keeps you from exacting revenge so you are truly an
indiscriminate, thoughtless killer. Maybe when they're a corpse you can
see who you butchered just for coolness' sake.

I know I know not too realistic not too Arm-ish but... a neato thought, ain't
it? Yeah that's what I was thinking. Cool.

- Ktavialt

[wizturbo]

I'd prefer such a spell just turned the corpse into an NPC that did those things.

It would be cool, if under very rare circumstances, PC's continued living after their bodies died.  Become elementals.  Become ghosts.  Etc.

[Dracul]

-  Ktavialt -  

Who says its not already in place?    (not that I specifically know)

[Yokunama]

Can you really provide RP if death isn't permanent? I think not...

Yeah I agree, with no fear of dying because you know OOCLY you'll come back it really would change the way you play I think.

Yea, it would.

The player who had experienced death from another person (player or npc) would more than likely spend most of their time training hard enough to defeat their killer the second time.

Permanent death makes things more interesting and makes players think about every action they make carefully, because there are no second chances in Armageddon.

[moab]

I can't help thinking that this whole perma-death is good thread is based soley on the numerous cheesy examples we find on the stock DIKU mud.

Viritually every AD&D game (unless over-ruled by house rules) had the facility for raising the dead and many people spend many hours in quality RP despite the possibilty of coming back to life.

With this in mind, it's quite obvious that perma-death is not good - or bad, it's the implementation that matters.

Quality permadeath and quality raises both have a place in quality RPI.

[HardCarbon]

I guess its that it takes me SO  long to get a character to where they are 'fun'  to play...      I guess that will change with experience...

[Angela Christine]

Sure D&D had resurection, but not the sort of casual, infinte resurections you see in most MUDs.  Yeah, implimentation is important.  In D&D 2nd Ed. every time you died you permanently lost a point of constitution, and since you had to make a constitution check to survive resurection you could only count on a couple of resurections.  Even if you waived the constitution roll you had an absolute limit of 17 resurections or fewer because if your constitution ever hit 0 you were pernanently dead (Though you would be weak, sickly and suck mightily around 6).  It made it so you really didn't want to die, and with a low-level character you'd probably be better off starting a new character rather than being resurected, particularily if your constition was greater than 14 or less than .

AC

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

HardCarbon wrote:

I guess its that it takes me SO long to get a character to where they are 'fun' to play... I guess that will change with experience...

Eh, I'm not so sure about that. I spent pretty much an entire summer playing on a pay-per-play, hack-'n-slash MUD where ressurections came free, and with very little penalty. In that game, you had to create a character, get him a clever combination of skills, then train relentlessly for months, even years, before you were able to interact with other, more established players as anything other than a lowly peon or a tasty chunk of XP.

In Arm, however, OOCly anyways, you're a valued, unique individual right from the get go, and able to make a real impact on the world without investing countless hours of playtime or twinking your skills to a ludicrous level.

I agree with Savak. A delicately implimented ressurection system could work, but it'd be difficult. And it's probably not the best thing for Arm.

[Agent_137]

Can you really provide RP if death isn't permanent? I think not...

I agree also. It also cuts down on the uber powerful chars that no one can touch because they've skill spammed their way to the top.

I do like the come back as an elemental, ghost, or zombie idea. Maybe some high level nilazi spell or sorc. Then the immortals could give you the option of playing it or making it an NPC.

Oh that's be fun. I'll have to try to do that with my next nilazi or sorc.

[Linedel]

Permanent death (or any code element) does not cause roleplay - good players and good mentoring do.

Permanent death is decided as an aspect of the world before it is a game policy.  Some campaign worlds/games (typically magic-heavy games) try to find ways around death.  For example, Asheron's Call has some fairly complex lore about the details of how soulstones work.  (The roleplaying merits (or lack thereof) of Asheron's Call aren't really relevant to their backstory; the original world was well made.)

Armageddon is a low magic setting, and therefore, it would not make sense for people to be resurrected with any degree of regularity, but I don't believe it adds a significant amount to the level of roleplay.

[da mitey warrior]

I have to completely and totally disagree with you there, Lindel.  Permanent death is the central pillar of Armageddon's roleplay.  You cannot have a serious roleplaying game without permadeath because death is what ultimatly what matters.  

How much drama can you have if there is no chance you will die?  What is the risk what is the gamble?  Where is the fear?  What is the point of having an enemy if they are effectively immortal?  Think of all the stories which become meaningless.

[Ktavialt]

I have to completely and totally disagree with you there, Lindel.  Permanent death is the central pillar of Armageddon's roleplay.  You cannot have a serious roleplaying game without permadeath because death is what ultimatly what matters.  

How much drama can you have if there is no chance you will die?  What is the risk what is the gamble?  Where is the fear?  What is the point of having an enemy if they are effectively immortal?  Think of all the stories which become meaningless.

Totally agree with you. Assassinations would suck because the murdered
would usually know who killed them and uhm... the assassination wouldn't
do anything if the person resurrects. They'll know the killer and if they're,
say, a big political figure then your whole point of killing them goes down
the drain.

I could see possible resurrection as a very, very advanced sorcerer spell
which rarely ever works and possibly relies on heavy components and is
used about as often as Tektolnes summons a sandstorm or earthquake to
destroy a major city... but other than that... mmm... nuh uh.

Luckily I don't think the staff is really thinking about removing permadeath
which is definitely one of the greatest qualities of Armageddon (Well that
and getting better doesn't revolve around grouping with two other people
and killing mindless automatons over and over again). Mmm I love the
skill based system rather than level system.

Anyways I'm tired,
- Ktavialt

[HardCarbon]

<<n Arm, however, OOCly anyways, you're a valued, unique individual right from the get go, and able to make a real impact on the world without investing countless hours of playtime or twinking your skills to a ludicrous level.
>>

Its not so much skills (gads I've never had a character with good skills) its more the  a)  ok I look ok...    b) I have made connections

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

I joined Arm coz I enjoyed the perma death aspect of it, and the karma system which prevents twinks too much.

Imagine creating a new pc and realising , where are the races?  

Ktavialt made a valid point about assassins, I figure if I'm killing someone, they are not going to find the head.

Without permadeath, it would never be so real.

[moab]

I have to completely and totally disagree with you there, Lindel.  Permanent death is the central pillar of Armageddon's roleplay.  You cannot have a serious roleplaying game without permadeath because death is what ultimatly what matters.  

How much drama can you have if there is no chance you will die?  What is the risk what is the gamble?  Where is the fear?  What is the point of having an enemy if they are effectively immortal?  Think of all the stories which become meaningless.

That is too funny!  On one hand you say you agree with Lindel, but on the other you say that you can not have a serious roleplaying game without permadeateh.

Do you agree with him or not?

His/Her post actually agrees with my position - that permadeath does not good roleplaying make.  It depends on the theme of the game whether permadeath is present and both types of games (with and without permadeath) can have great RP.

In Armageddon, it fits with the theme.  But it's not because of it that we have good RP.

[Bestatte]

Over on Topmudsites, there was some discussion on what constitutes an RPI (roleplaying-intensive) game.

The final conclusion was still up in the air, but the number two criteria was permanent death of PCs. The number one was that the game was roleplay required. Third was no or extremely limited OOC or global channels. All the rest of the possible criteria were up for debate, but those three were not.

So - according to Topmudsites (and this thread topic was bounced around on Mudconnector as well), Armageddon is an RPI *because* it has permanent death, required roleplay, and limited/no global channels. These three things, above and beyond all other things, *define* "RPI." There are roleplaying-intensive games which aren't RPIs, and there are roleplaying-enforced games which aren't RPIs. But RPI is a very narrowly defined term with very specific criteria.

Only a handful of games fit into the category RPI. Armageddon is on the list of every person who mentions it on both TMS and TMC, and they all feel that we do a bang-up job in successfully defining the term.

Personally, I don't think I could ever go back to playing a game that doesn't have permanent death. It would feel flat and stale to me, and rather pointless.

[Anonymous]

I have to completely and totally disagree with you there, Lindel.

Do you agree with him or not?

Note the bolded text.

[da mitey warrior]

I have to completely and totally disagree with you there, Lindel.

Do you agree with him or not?

Note the bolded text.