Staffing

[Raesanos]

I want to echo something that was said earlier.  Please do not refrain from applying for a staff position because you think you have too little karma or no coding experience.  If you think you'd be a good candidate given the list of things we look for that Sanvean posted, and if you want to be on staff, don't let these things get in the way.  There are a substancial number of staffers with no coding experience, and a good number I can think of that didn't have extremely impressive karma when they came on.  They just aren't major factors for us, compared to the others.

[Armaddict]

I don't do it because I think I'd be more of a serious pain in the ass, granted by my conflicts I have with staff from time to time.

...

Interesting comments and feedback from someone that has not
participated in the system in question from the staff side, doesn't have
access to the boards where the system takes place to know what
does/doesn't get posted, isn't on senior staff to know what they do/do not do with apps before posting them.

In real life, the supervisor doesn't ask his employees whether or not they can work with the applicant.

News to me, I've participated in more than one interview like this from
both sides of the table.

Regardless of personality issues - if that applicant can
do the job better than other applicants, then he's the one who gets hired.

Again, news to me.  I've seen feedback comments on interviews that say,
literally, "Bad personality, will not work well with team.  Suggest do not
hire."

In real life there are jillions of businesses in the world and they all do
their things differently.

[Adhira]

In my job I chose the other two members of the team I now work in, I helped to write their job descriptions, I was a member of the four person interview panel and one of the major components in selection was whether I could work with them. (Not whether I -liked- them, but if I could work with them).

My team and I then helped write the job description for our new BOSS. We were the interview panel along with the big head honcho of our business and we chose who we wanted to manage us.

Sometimes, in the real world, team members do get a say.

[Bestatte]

I dunno, Nessalin. In the industries I've worked in, at least in the state of Connecticut, it is against the law for employers to show job applications to employees, unless the employees are part of Human Resources or other similar positions of authority regarding the hiring of other employees. If I thought for one moment that a potential peer might be looking at my social security number, my address, my race, my education, my hobbies, and past employment, I would think very carefully whether or not I'd want to work for such a company. And then I'd make a beeline to the State Labor Board.

But again, that only pertains to real life. The law doesn't apply to things like muds, especially since the mud staff isn't asking questions like that or requiring social security numbers to be given.

I'd also like to add that "being able to work with someone" can be directly related to whether or not you -like- the person. If you dislike them enough, then it can become very difficult to work with them, if you aren't capable of setting your personal feelings for the person aside. I've known people who have been fired for that very reason: Because a co-worker who was valued by the boss didn't like the other person, and made a fuss saying she couldn't work with that other person. And the boss fired the other person, using the justification that the first employee had already proven his/her worth, and they wouldn't want to risk losing THAT employee in favor of one that was untried.

Unfair, maybe. But I don't think for a moment that it isn't capable of happening anywhere, including Armageddon. No one group of people is that perfect that it can't happen. Whether it does or not, I don't know. But I'm sure it's possible, because we are all human (except for Saikun).

[mansa]

Let me see if I have all the facts straight.  Mansa applied for staff once and was rejected.  Staff selection comes around again, and he rants about the selection system while declaring his intentions to apply again?  If I printed the thread out and put it under my pillow, the irony fairy would leave me a quarter.

Actually, I've applied each and every time.  A number of them were 'joke' applications, and since the big guy said, 'stop sending me crap like that' I've stopped.  The last round, I did seriously apply, and was seriously looked at as a real application.  I didn't make it to the 'interview' stage, but my 'rejection' letter was pretty clear about what it is that the staff doesn't enjoy about the things that I do.

And, as you can see from my last few posts, I tend to do a few things that piss off people.

Nessalin:  Yes.  I don't have access to anything.  I'm gossip mongering because that's all I had to work with, along with my imagination.  Seems my bullshit has hit the fan and I've been shown to be wrong, yet again.  I am full of crap.

All and all, it's been a good discussion so far.  Everyone who's read everything so far now has a real and true sense of what happens when someone applies to becomes staff.  Taking that at least 4 immortals have said that I'm wrong, it's not that much of a popularity contest that I thought it was.  I still think it's not the best, but ...

And, as I said in my first post on this very interesting discussion:  The current system is a lot better than the old one. People that the staff have never seriously contemplated about joining the team can now send in their applications. You could be a superstar and only play the game for 6 months and become an immortal to help run the game and change it into an awesome and new direction. You could be an old player who's tired of playing all the simple roles, and who wants to try something new, instead of quitting the game altogether.

[RunningMountain]

Is it just me or does anyone else find it somewhat unnerving that people who play the game for six monthes can get on staff?  I don't know about everyone else but I would rather see people who have history with the game rather then those who are well-qualified get the position.

-RM

[Sanvean]

I don't believe any staff member has said someone can play the game six months and get on staff.  If you look at the qualities I listed, experience is one of them.  Someone would have to have a -lot- of other factors in their favor for something like that to happen.

[flurry]

I'd prefer well-qualified.   I can't see the staff putting a "newbie" on board who wasn't fantastically qualified.

Edit to add:   I've also experienced several times (from both perspectives) real life job interviews where the peers were the ones making the evaluation and making the hiring recommendation.

[Bestatte]

Is it just me or does anyone else find it somewhat unnerving that people who play the game for six monthes can get on staff?  I don't know about everyone else but I would rather see people who have history with the game rather then those who are well-qualified get the position.

-RM

I believe Mansa was dramatically pointing out that the current methods of getting staff members gives EVERYONE a fair chance at getting an IMM spot.

And yeah what Sanvean said - no one on staff made any kind of claim about 6-month players becoming staff members (though she did say that it could be possible under exceptional circumstances, thus proving Mansa's point)

[RunningMountain]

Ohh..okay. Well that clears that up.  Personally I think the game is a lot different now then it used to be. I guess it's for the better, I get a lot more interaction with animated npcs, while back 3-4 years ago if an imm ever animated an NPC it was a godsend and you kept talking so they wouldn't go away..heh, good times.  All the available roles thing is nice too, never used to have that.

-RM

[Praetorian]

Wow, I'm actually piping up for once

I think Adhira hit on one of the most important points for a potential new staff member to consider.  As soon as you become staff on -any- game, it loses much of the mystery and thrill of the unknown.  You have to ask yourself. 'would I find the same amount of enjoyment out of this game if I knew all of the secrets, and how everything worked from a standpoint of basic mechanics?'.  I don't find this dilemma to be such a bad thing at all.  Some people enjoy being thrilled, others enjoy doing the thrilling.  That to me, is a foundational difference between players and immortals.

I have been playing this game since 1992.  Technically, I have learned a great deal in that time and many would assume there isn't much 'mystery' left to be entranced by...that simply isn't true.  The more you learn, the more you realize theres alot more that is going on that you might never be exposed to.  I, enjoy being thrilled - and am grateful toward those (both players and staff) who provide that entertainment.  Because of this, I have never seriously considered joining the staff.  I think the imms appreciate that in a backwards sort of way because the simple fact is myself, and other thrill-seekers, just don't fit into that role.  (Well, also probably appreciate it because Halaster just loves killing me, Sanvean doesn't take well to snuggles and jawline licks, and Nessalin scared the hell out of me about 10 years ago when I met him - swear to god he was about 7 foot tall and long hair, a biker-dude on crack - thought he was going to pull a sword out from behind his coat and slaughter me.  Oh, and everyone hates me! *insert some commonly used victim rant here*).

The best way, in my opinion, for players to aide in staff-like duties without taking on staff responsibiities is to assist in entries in the current projects page.  If an imm enters that they need 10 mercenary pc's described, then write up a few.  Need plants for a new area?  Let your imagination soar in varied foliage varieties.  I have done this many times, and it gives a sense of pride when you see something you know you did entered into the game.

Anyways, I ramble...maybe thats why I don't post often.  I've forgotten what this thread was even about

*licks everyones jawline delicately*

[Marc]

The stocking cap brigade salutes you Prae, you damnable victim you.

[cyberpatrol_735]

I don't see why all of the fuss.. If you want to be a part of this amazing roleplaying team, submit an application when they are accepted. If you don't wish to join this amazing team of people, don't submit an application. Its as easy as that guys, there's no reason to go on ranting about why such and such method is good or bad, the staff that armageddon has now, is the best staff I've seen since I began mudding, and since then, Immed, imped, and coded on other -roleplaying- ROM codebase muds, and my experience at Armageddon has been nothing but a success. So, to all you players, I say apply if you want a shot, don't if you don't. To the staff I say, excellent job, keep up the hard work, and continue to make good choices, this will be the best mud in exhistance, give or take a few years.

[Nidhogg]

I don't think it's -anything- like applying for a job in real life. In real life, the supervisor doesn't ask his employees whether or not they can work with the applicant. The supervisor TELLS his employees whether or not they WILL work with the applicant, depending on the supervisor's decision. If an employee has a problem with that, then the employee knows where the unemployment office is. If the applicant has a problem with any of the employees after being hired, the applicant also knows where the unemployment office is.

People don't have to like each other, in real life, in order to work together. They're not being paid to like each other, or even "get along." They're getting paid to do a job. Regardless of personality issues - if that applicant can do the job better than other applicants, then he's the one who gets hired. Well except in cases of nepotism, but even then, daddy's little girl can only use being the boss's daughter only so much before her ass gets tossed on the line as well.

Of course staff doesn't get paid at all. Our compensation is satisfaction and enjoyment, and whether or not you want to or can work well with people becomes far more important.

[Nidhogg]

Is it just me or does anyone else find it somewhat unnerving that people who play the game for six monthes can get on staff?  I don't know about everyone else but I would rather see people who have history with the game rather then those who are well-qualified get the position.

-RM

One of the things we look at is whether someone has a broad enough knowledge of the game to take on a staff position. But yes, if someone played for six months and they get it, why not? But don't be unnerved, we don't take on anyone not qualified.

[Nidhogg]

I've been on staff a little over a year. I did go through the interview process. It was relatively painless, but a bit intimidating. My advice is that if you really feel you have something to contribute that you apply.

What's it like?

There is a great deal to learn and like the game different people pick things up at a different pace. Some people like to jump right in, some like to slowly step in as they feel comfortable. The technical end is more intimidating that difficult, and if you have any coding or scripting background it may not be intimidating. There is a wealth of great documentation, and the other imms are more than happy to help. In fact Mekeda still has to hold my hand everytime I put in a doorway, and she is still, one year later, very kind to me about it.

Will it ruin the game for me?
It didn't ruin the game for me. Even with access to all the information, there is so much of it that you're not going to get it all at once. Yes, as staff you may be responsible for knowing things that as a player you wouldn't know and wouldn't want to know. But no, it doesn't ruin the game.

Finally, sometimes I like imming more than playing, sometimes I like playing more than imming. It's a wonderful experience. I've never regretted joining. That said like any other venture that involves responsibility and other people it invloves a lot of work and some frustrations. That's something you should be prepared for.

[Bestatte]

I don't think it's -anything- like applying for a job in real life. In real life, the supervisor doesn't ask his employees whether or not they can work with the applicant. The supervisor TELLS his employees whether or not they WILL work with the applicant, depending on the supervisor's decision. If an employee has a problem with that, then the employee knows where the unemployment office is. If the applicant has a problem with any of the employees after being hired, the applicant also knows where the unemployment office is.

People don't have to like each other, in real life, in order to work together. They're not being paid to like each other, or even "get along." They're getting paid to do a job. Regardless of personality issues - if that applicant can do the job better than other applicants, then he's the one who gets hired. Well except in cases of nepotism, but even then, daddy's little girl can only use being the boss's daughter only so much before her ass gets tossed on the line as well.

Of course staff doesn't get paid at all. Our compensation is satisfaction and enjoyment, and whether or not you want to or can work well with people becomes far more important.

Yes, that's another reason why being on staff is very dissimilar to real life work. But it does stress the importance of being able to work with other people. And if you really can't stand someone, it could make you unable to work with that person. So in regards to the "popularity" issue, I think there is merit and validity to the claim - somewhat. Definitely not emphasis on who likes who, but to claim that such a criteria doesn't exist isn't exactly true. I should stress also, that there is NOTHING WRONG with needing to enjoy the company of the person you are working with, especially when it comes to volunteer work.  Just like Nidhogg said: "Whether or not you want to or can work well with people" does play a role in the decision-making process.

[cyberpatrol_735]

I agree with you on all aspects Nidhogg, a few more things to consider is that when applying for a position where you deal with people more than you normally would, you need to ask yourself if you can handle it on all levels. Will you blow up in someone's face, can you solve problems, do you have trouble with dealing out punishments, things like that.

It also comes down to dealing with the people you work with, you need to be well-tempered and listen to their ideas and not try to push your own. That, to me, makes all the difference to being on a staff with someone.

[Anonymous]

I dunno, Nessalin. In the industries I've worked in, at least in the state of Connecticut, it is against the law for employers to show job applications to employees, unless the employees are part of Human Resources or other similar positions of authority regarding the hiring of other employees.

In both of the jobs I've held over the last 8 years myself and teammembers were heavily involved in the interview and approval process for any new teammembers.  We never saw their application.  We were there to grill them on technical expertise and determine how well they would work with the team.  I don't think bringing laws about sharing highly personal information into this discussion has any bearing on the discussion.

I will say that being involved in the process is more specific to the type of work you are applying for.  In the retail, food-services and blue-collar jobs I've held I've never had a say.  But when your job becomes more collaborative, both in creative and problem-solving endeavours then chemistry becomes a very important part of the equation.  We have, on several occasions, passed over more qualified applicants because they came across too boorish or stubborn or, in one case, unbelievably arrogant.

[Intrepid]

Bestatte, I've worked at three places in the last ten years whose app
process mirrors the one being detailed on Arm.  Don't be an ostrich; if
it isn't happening where you are, that doesn't mean it isn't happening
somewhere.  No need to stick your head in the ground and disbelieve
your surrounding environment. :wink: