Brand new Sandstorm Code by Xygax the Highlord.

[wizturbo]

A little extreme, I agree.  Especially when ranger are the ONLY one's uneffected.  Again, I'd like to see Merchants be able to pilot through storms and for at least one or two spells be made for the Rukkian and Whirans out there, seems silly that those two magickers be worse off than a common ranger when their nature is specifically geared to a nomadic or travelers life.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

Just read through, and I don't know how long the checking the weather in a certain direction has been in place, but that's a nice addition.  A little suggestion about the looking south and being able to see 3 rooms away, stepping one room south and blam.. Either what Ghost said, or possibly something like this, since instead of just seeing a storm, you'd see how far/near the storm is, but the concept is basicly the same.
look south
Very far - You can't see that far, wind and sand blanket the area
Far Nothing
Near Nothing

[jhunter]

I think that it's cool as is, with the exception that I think Rukkians and Whirans should be unaffected by it like the rangers.

[wizturbo]

I think that it's cool as is, with the exception that I think Rukkians and Whirans should be unaffected by it like the rangers.

I really think piloting merchants should be on that list as well.  PILOTING ONLY.  The merchants are usually the ones behind the reigns, and organizing a wagon trip can be difficult enough as it is, without having to worry about the weather conditions making the pilot unable to navigate.

Repeat, only when piloting a wagon or argosy should merchants receive this benefit, whereas on kankback or on foot they would be in with the rest of the world.

[jhunter]

I really think piloting merchants should be on that list as well. PILOTING ONLY. The merchants are usually the ones behind the reigns, and organizing a wagon trip can be difficult enough as it is, without having to worry about the weather conditions making the pilot unable to navigate.

Repeat, only when piloting a wagon or argosy should merchants receive this benefit, whereas on kankback or on foot they would be in with the rest of the world.

I can see that possibly. Probably be alot harder to do for this one though I would think. The others, just have to add the same code to the guild as exists for the rangers when dealing with storms.

[Gaare]

Subclasses are hobbies more than anything else.  Don't expect a hobbyist to be as good as the real deal.

I still believe there should be some more extra class/subclasses that can find their way in the storms.

:idea: Creating a subclass called "Scout" with navigation property could be a good solution.

[Anonymous]

... and although I am not against them per se, I can forsee becoming extremely annoyed at being caught in a storm a few leagues from the city gates and not being able to leave the game OOCly despite my not having really done anything too adventurous or risky.  Also, exploring the world can be a fun part of the game, and this is another yet another strike against non-rangers who want to operate in the desert.  Yes, rangers should survive better than anyone, but being able to quit mounted whereever you want to is already a big, big factor in their favor.

[Bestatte]

Quitting out "wherever you want to" isn't as great as people seem to think it is. Would YOU want to quit out in the middle of the forest, and log back in with three halflings staring a hole in your head?

Or how about logging out in some nice cozy spot in the Red Desert, and logging back in 1 room away from three mantises to your east, and two raptors to your north, with a third raptor drooling on your boots?

Trust me - there are no "safe" places to quit out, outside town. Even the places that are safe - aren't safe...because you never know what, or who else, might be making use of the room the moment you happen to log back in.

[Xygax]

The feedback on this is appreciated and I'm considering all of it.  That said, it's clear that some of you are becoming frustrated by this feature without even having experienced it yet.  (This isn't a solicitation for anecdotal evidence of why you're upset, but rather I hope to give you a nudge to go try it out for yourself before concerning yourself too much with it).

You will only experience this "losing your bearings" when the storm is "blinding" (ie. if you walk through a room and see "blinding, stinging sand" messages, or if the weather command tells you something along those lines).  The only time you'll be otherwise -surprised- by it is if you're wandering around in a storm that is already "terrible" (since terrible storms can become blinding from one hour to the next, or from one room to the next, depending on where you are), or when you are travelling across the world (a journey for which you -should- have brought yourself a proper guide).

In general, unless travelling long distances, this code shouldn't cause any significant inconveniences to non-rangers who are playing within reasonable bounds of IC behavior.  Normal people shouldn't be wandering about in terrible storms in the first place, and if you -do- have to do this, then you should most certainly realize that you're taking your life in your hands.  If a wicked storm surprises you while you're out in the desert, well, that's just life in a brutal world.  The best response is probably to hole up and try to wait it out, if you can.

[mansa]

It should be easier to keep groups together in sandstorms now, (ie. you'll usually get lost -together- instead of being separated) and a little harder (not much) for loners to get lost.  You're still better off with your friendly neighborhood ranger, though....

 The weather command has been enhanced to help you avoid storms.  Check out "help weather".

Help Weather

[Ghost]

The addition of weather <direction> is real nice one and helpful in this storm code.  But again, ..

1) The reason I pointed out the "constant storm" areas is that, they are stormy even if "weather" command does not say so (I experienced it and nearly lost a character to it) And when I asked why I am getting lost even if weather command does not say there is a storm, the response was "It is a constant storm area.  Just a geographical feature of the area you are in."
So, by weather <direction> we will not be able to see if we are diving into a harsh sandstorm or not.  And here again, I keep the suggestions of my former post on this subject.

2) We should not be lost if we keep going on a "road", not leaving it.  I dont think it is any less realistic to be able to keep going after a man of the wastes than to be able to keep following a road of in the wastes. (I have not checked about it yet, I dont know if we already can follow a road in the storm.  If it is already in, then ignore the suggestion)  There can be an additional delay according to the strength of the storm, but no matter how long it takes, we should be able to keep going over a road.

Other than that, the code has added some realism over the game.  Though I do believe d-elves should enjoy the same bonuses as rangers do but that is just me.
Thank you Xygax, for your effort to put realism into the game.

[John]

Normal people shouldn't be wandering about in terrible storms in the first place, and if you -do- have to do this, then you should most certainly realize that you're taking your life in your hands.

I was going to say that myself with respect to Merchants. They should be smart enough to know not to go out into a storm (would you go out in a car when it's raining so much it's blinding? I know I wouldn't and if I was out I'd pull off to the side of the road and wait it out).

for at least one or two spells be made for the Rukkian and Whirans out there, seems silly that those two magickers be worse off than a common ranger when their nature is specifically geared to a nomadic or travelers life.

Sounds like something worthy of an "idea" in game And it's good to hear storms are cumulative (I believe that previously they weren't).

[Angela Christine]

2) We should not be lost if we keep going on a "road", not leaving it.  I dont think it is any less realistic to be able to keep going after a man of the wastes than to be able to keep following a road of in the wastes. (I have not checked about it yet, I dont know if we already can follow a road in the storm.  If it is already in, then ignore the suggestion)  There can be an additional delay according to the strength of the storm, but no matter how long it takes, we should be able to keep going over a road.  

I agree.  Making travel safer and easier is the whole point of building and maintaining roads, right?   When you are on a road, you go in the direction you intended to go in, but if that direction took you off the road then you may have trouble finding it again.  Though I imagine coding every road room to be a no-get-lost room could be hard.  Someone would also have to decide when a mere trail or path is distinctive enough to prevent getting lost -- that could be particularily important around Red Storm.

Other than that, the code has added some realism over the game.  Though I do believe d-elves should enjoy the same bonuses as rangers do but that is just me.

Meh.  Most d-elves should probably BE rangers.  A non-ranger delf is an exception, he obviously spent a lot of time working on other things like crafting, magick or fancy bladework, instead of learning the way of the land.  A non-ranger delf is obviously not the guy that led the scouting parties, for some reason his sense of direction isn't so good and he is lousy at setting an ambush.   Besides, despite the tendancies of PCs, lone delves are very rare, right?  So it is entirely plausible that many delves may never ever have been all alone in the desert, they were always in a group.  As long as one guy in your group can find his ass with both hands you are fine, there is no reason for every single person in the group to have exceptional tracking and directional ability.  Be a ranger or stay with your tribe, problem solved.

[mansa]

I wish a subclass, much like nomad or caravan guide, would also be affected.   Because I like to play my assassins as desert ninjas out in the wastes and survive off the land with a non-ranger.

[Cenghiz]

Now, I've experienced the storm a few times.. I also accidentally wandered into a perma-storm region. Still I think it's a fine addition.

1. I also agree there shouldn't be an extra for d-elves.. They already are very overpowered.. If you suddenly become the only d-elf in a coded tribe with a magicker guild, you're unlucky.
2. I'm wondering if magickal walls of some elements cut off the wind.. I believe it's too hard to code. Just wondering.. I guess it wouldn't be wise to ask for such a huge task.
3. I'm also wondering if there's an IC way to tell the customer "I'm a ranger, we won't get lost..". Would it be counted as OOC information leakage.

[Xygax]

1) The reason I pointed out the "constant storm" areas is that, they are stormy even if "weather" command does not say so (I experienced it and nearly lost a character to it)

I remember your experience, because it was me that responded.  The rooms you were in were clearly described as stormy areas (in fact, I think the room's title was something like "At the Base of Sandstorm Cliffs" or other such obvious name).  I also remember responding to this issue by fixing the weather code to -always- indicate the level of storminess in a room correctly.  (previously, it would indicate no sandstorm, if the wind was too low, which isn't how the rest of the code -- even before I fixed this "losing your bearings" bug -- dealt with sandstorms.  It now correctly indicates the weather of the room you're in or the one you're looking towards, and will give you enough information to navigate around "permanent" storms like this, even in situations where the title/full text of the room isn't so obvious).

Once again, I think a lot of you who are up in arms against this change haven't actually experienced it for yourselves since the recent code changes that have been made to either soften the feature, or to make it more predictable.

On the subject of roads, this is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how I feel about it.  A lot of the major roads on Zalanthas are useful and maintained travel paths, but aren't in areas that are necessarily shielded from sand and storms.  I'll take a closer look at this in the next few days.

-- X

[Xygax]

3. I'm also wondering if there's an IC way to tell the customer "I'm a ranger, we won't get lost..". Would it be counted as OOC information leakage.

I'd like it if people didn't refer to themselves in terms of specific class-names, but telling a customer that you're an experienced desert guide should tell them all they need to know (if they believe you :twisted: )

[Ghost]

Wow!  That was you Xygax?  Ohh.. !

I must say I am sorry.  I was not aware of the sandstorm code at the time I got lost in that place.  Well.. I was frustrated about, getting in a storm, not knowing there was one and nearly losing that character.  Well, at that time, for my blabberings and such, I am really really sorry. :oops:

On the subject of roads, this is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how I feel about it. A lot of the major roads on Zalanthas are useful and maintained travel paths, but aren't in areas that are necessarily shielded from sand and storms. I'll take a closer look at this in the next few days.

The reason you dont get lost when you follow the ranger, is that, you walk or ride too close to the ranger, such that you see his faint figure in the storm, and since he knows the direction he must take, you dont get lost right?  
For the road case, it is similar.  No matter there is the storm or not, you lock your gaze down the road, and follow it.  You might realize the terrain's being smooth, and easy to travel on and you keep going.  If you are about to step off the road, you realize the change and you evade stepping off.  The storm and the difficulty in sight might make it a little longer.  So there might be delay in travel, but you indeed follow the road, no matter how longer it takes.  So you can go as far as the road takes you.  That was my reasoning on why road's should be "storm free" in the way getting lost.  

And for the recent additions you already made, thank you, for your effort and time you put into  

[Xygax]

Actually, I think that rangers are able to navigate people through storms for a huge variety of other reasons that may have nothing to do with visibility:  

Rangers have spent their lives in the desert, and are accustomed to storms:

• They know how and when to move through the gusts of cutting, blinding sands.
  
• They know how and when to open their eyes or close their eyes(to keep them from being blasted blind by sand), in order to be able to make out significant path-markers that less experienced travellers -would- miss. (and I'm referring to markers that can be made out even when the shape of the land, the shape of even a well-travelled road, could be entirely concealed by freshly deposited sand-dunes)
  
• They know how and when to hole up to avoid the worst dangers of storms.
  
• They know how to handle animals which might otherwise turn half-mad in such violent conditions.
  
• They know tricks for keeping a group of travellers together, when at any moment one of them could slip and fall from a dune or lose control of their mount, or stumble away in the blinding clouds of sand and lose sight of the group.  (Some people have mentioned holding hands, being tied together, etc., but these are terrible ideas if you think you might also be attacked while travelling, and especially if you're mounted)
  
• Rangers know how to dress themselves in preparation for storms, and how to dress their companions.
  
• Rangers know what other tools and preparatons are necessary for surviving storms.

A lot of these things aren't represented by the code, right now (it might be cool if more were), so to some degree they are all "encapsulated" by a few important abilities that we give to rangers.  And a lot of them aren't things that it would even necessarily be easy to roleplay (though seeing more roleplay of this would also be cool), since it's hard to imagine a storm of this calibre (remember we're talking about the worst storms Zalanthas has to offer).  But there are definitely more aspects to being a desert-guide than simply keeping everyone in the group in sight of one another (and remember that "in sight" is a nebulous concept when you're talking about people who may not even be able to keep their eyes open because of the weather).

[wizturbo]

Xygax:

Many of the things you brought up in your post, that enable rangers to navigate effectively under such harsh conditions, could definitely be done by various magicker classes and in my opinion, Merchants as well when piloting their argosies and wagons, having a firm nomadic tradition and a natural aptitude for piloting.  Inside an argosy some of the harsh conditions that require a ranger to navigate would be gone, so the merchant with their inferior, yet still noteworthy, skills in navigation can manage to pilot the storm.

I'm sure the staff could dream up at least a dozen spells that could be used to allow navigation, so i'll leave that to you guys, but it still seems crazy to me that a NORMAL person can travel through a vicious storm where a mage that has magick powers assosiated with sandstorms cannot.

I'll stop nagging on this point now.  *steps off his soapbox*

[Xygax]

wizturbo:  Have you actually -tried- piloting a wagon through a sandstorm yet?  If so, and if you've had trouble with it, please send me a log.  If not, please stop presenting it as an issue.

As for the magickers question, to some degree, I agree with your points (and I read them the first time, as well).  You may see in the next few days that various mages have means of evading the harshest effects of sandstorms.  But not all will.  Also, rangers aren't normal persons, by any stretch.  Anyone who can live in the wilds of Zalanthas is hardly normal.

-- X

[wizturbo]

Thanks.  I'll stop posting like a lunatic about this.  RAR.

[Seeker]

I am tremendously impressed by the responsiveness and speed that questions, potential improvements and modifications have been addressed with this great feature.

Thank you.

Seeker

[Angela Christine]

On the subject of roads, this is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how I feel about it.  A lot of the major roads on Zalanthas are useful and maintained travel paths, but aren't in areas that are necessarily shielded from sand and storms.  I'll take a closer look at this in the next few days.

Roads aren't just visibility, although some of the oddly coloured roads (like white) might be visually distinctive from the adjacent ground even in poor visiblity conditions.  You can also "feel" a road.  I assume that they are somehow designed so that sand does not accumulate on them or they would be burried within a month and of no use even in clear weather, maybe they are slightly raised?  Anyway, a stone road is going to feel different underfoot than sand dunes, rocky barrens, or dry dusty soil.  Some roads are even lined with stones, so that you trip over them when you try to leave the road.  So I think roads would be useful even in low visibility.  

AC

[Xygax]

On the subject of roads, this is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how I feel about it.  A lot of the major roads on Zalanthas are useful and maintained travel paths, but aren't in areas that are necessarily shielded from sand and storms.  I'll take a closer look at this in the next few days.

Roads aren't just visibility, although some of the oddly coloured roads (like white) might be visually distinctive from the adjacent ground even in poor visiblity conditions.  You can also "feel" a road.  I assume that they are somehow designed so that sand does not accumulate on them or they would be burried within a month and of no use even in clear weather, maybe they are slightly raised?  Anyway, a stone road is going to feel different underfoot than sand dunes, rocky barrens, or dry dusty soil.  Some roads are even lined with stones, so that you trip over them when you try to leave the road.  So I think roads would be useful even in low visibility.  

AC

Yes, except that a severe sandstorm could -easily- sweep over and conceal a road completely in a matter of a few minutes.

Remember, we're talking about Zalanthas' very worst storms.