I am Sickened!

[elvenchipmunk]

I don't know what anyone else has had in relations to this topic, but I guess we'll see. It seems as though whenver I'm out hunting in the wild, say, a gizhat. I bring him down to terrible condition and only receive a few hits myself. Then all of a sudden, the stupid thing goes uber on me and claws me very hard three or four times. Now this hasn't only happened with gizhats, and has happened many, -many- times. It seems as though when animals are lower in health, their fighting ability improves, and I just find this ridiculous. You'd think that the lower -anything- was in health, they'd be worse at fighting, because you'd be barely clinging to life, bleeding everywhere and becoming faint.
This may just be coincidence, but it seems to have happened to me way too many times to be a coincidence.

[sacac]

I'll remember that, when you have me backed in a corner.
*mental note* Never get so desperate that I fight better and offend pooor anyone.

I think that is perfectly fine, Stop a few people from killing everything and using an ability called "Judgement", or maybe hunt with someone?

Why wouldn't it attack you more if you got it to the stage where it fights harder or dies. Sorta like backing it into a corner.

[Agent_137]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=epinephrine

[elvenchipmunk]

I see. Thanks for the link Agent, I kind of thought it had something to do with adrenaline, but I didn't think it would make something extremely uber, only slightly.

[sacac]

And you shouldn't be able to kick a mekillot, or let your shield absorb a hit from a gizhat/behemoth/mekillot/worm/silt horror, Those are pretty goddamn big things, They should only take a hit to kill you, I don't care if your cuirass of eliteness absorbs it all or not.

[sjanimal]

Elven Chipmunk,

You're completely right.  Sometimes the code does something cheezy.  Sometimes people try to make excuses for it instead of acknowledging it, or fixing it.

Question to you:  Do you think it's a big enough deal that someone should spend four hours fixing it?

You've made quite a good point, though.

yours,
-sjanimal

[SRB]

I think the staff posted awhile back that in actually animals do not receive a bonus when fighting with low health. It could be seen as a mere coincidence.

Such perks could have been coded into the game though lately, I am not sure.

[elvenchipmunk]

No, I really doubt it's coincidence. It's happened far too many times to just be merely coincidence. I just wanted to know if anyone else playing the game has experienced this, because I just don't think it's right.

[moab]

the staff has posted that this is pure chance.

[Xygax]

Yeah, I always thought there was some sort of statistical anomaly here, but having examined the code fairly closely, I do not believe there is any coded bias.

Call it the Ghost in the Machine, if you like.

-- X

[John]

Call it the Ghost in the Machine, if you like.

So it's Saikun's fault then? Anyone know what sort of beer he likes?

[Angela Christine]

I have a theory:


- NPCs are rolled up with random stats, within a certain range for that type of NPC.

- NPC's skills improve as they use them, just like PCs.  Well, maybe not exactly like PCs, I bet they "learn" faster than PCs, because NPCs never get more than 6 1/2 days of play time before a reboot resets them.  PCs have limits built in to how fast they can improve, to make skill spamming useless and therefore discourage twinking.  Repeating a skill 100 times in ten minutes probably won't make a PC any better than using it 3 times in 10 minutes.  However, NPCs are not smart enough to attempt twinkery, so anti-twinking restraints are unnecessary.  If they do not suffer from the same restraints, then doing something 100 times in ten minutes might allow them to improve very quickly.

- The creatures mentioned when this topic comes up, at least the ones I've noticed, have all been non-aggressive NPCs.  Since they are non-agressive, the battle quoted may have been the first combat they were involved in durring this uptime.


You probably see where I'm going with this.

An NPC is in it's first non-virtual battle, with whatever it's initial skill rolls were, and at first it doesn't fight very well.  The battle goes on for a long time, many rounds, and as it fights the NPC improves.  The more it fails, the faster it improves.  So near the end of a long battle the NPC may be noticably more skilled than it was in the begining of the battle.


Or not.  Just more wild speculation.


AC

[sjanimal]

AC,

Oh god, that's brilliant.  I feel like I've noticed that too.  I don't have enough statistical data to verify it...but, it would explain a lot of things.

[Xygax]

AC's theory is interesting, except that I'm fairly confident NPCs are subject to the same "anti-twink" restrictions players are.  Not for he sake of realism really, so much as that it's easier to treat all "characters" as "characters".  So, probably, if an NPC DOES learn some amount of skill during a battle with you, it won't be much, not enough to turn the tide, likely. (maybe enough to make it look like the code is "cheating", but I don't think quite enough, really.

btw, nice .sig, AC

-- X

[Cenghiz]

Then I will believe raptors have unbelieveable wisdom. If you can't kill a raptor fast, it starts tearing the meat off your bones.

[Zharal]

In my opion its just a role of the dice, sometimes there good, sometimes there very bad..

[Pantoufle]

I died to a vestric once.  I swear!  Out of the blue he started beating the crap out of me and I tried to flee, ran out of stamina, and the little rodent-bird chased me down.  I was so embarassed  :oops:.

[Delirium]

If you can't kill a raptor fast, it starts tearing the meat off your bones.

Maybe that's because it's a vicious, nasty predator with sharp, sharp teeth and claws? Just an idle thought...

[wizturbo]

If you can't kill a raptor fast, it starts tearing the meat off your bones.

Maybe that's because it's a vicious, nasty predator with sharp, sharp teeth and claws? Just an idle thought...

Yeah...what SOOOOOO many people fail to recognize in-character is that the beasts many people go around joyhunting are incredibly dangerous creatures that have claimed countless lives.  But since their coded parry skill or whatever generally keeps them safe, they feel that there is no reason to fear them.

[sacac]

And I'd go as far to say every creature bigger than your leg is dangerous.
I completely agree with Wizturbo.

[John]

I tried to flee, ran out of stamina

So that's how you run out of stamina. Sorry, I remember back in my newbie days running out of stamina while in battle and haven't been able to work out how. I probably kept failing flee.

[Koala]

Call it the Ghost in the Machine, if you like.

Something makes me believe in this statement if there is no coded thing, which increases the challange rating of the critter just before it falls down to the ground.

[jhunter]

Maybe ginka is getting awfully close to becoming self aware.

Once it does...I believe it will reduce the planet to a desert wasteland...build itself a body...

The sorceror king, Muk Ginkolnes is standing here, an aura of brilliant electric-blue light surrounding him.

*shudders*

[Cuusardo]

I do agree with the whole animals being vicious predators thing.  Far too many people will just blithely go out with absolutely NO fear at all of these beasts that they are hunting.  The average hunter should be terrified of a tembo (for example), but far fewer people are than should be.  I think this comes from people either getting too cocky (So they're bigger than me, I've got a sword!), or having a hack and slash mentality (I'm going to go out and kill stuff to increase my l33t skillz!)  Yes, a gizhat may not be aggressive, but if you piss it off it's going to do everything it can to kick your ass.  Same with any creature you run outside and attack.

[hcwalker]

... I too have had the feeling that  animals become more powerful in combat as their health wanes.  I once thought there might be some sort of "berserk" ability or skill that would kick in as they began to desparately cling to life.  On further reflection I do not think this is true for the following reasons:

1.  Hunter-type characters kill the majority of what they hunt and don't think twice about it when the combat goes as planned.
2.  For obvious reasons, we preferentially remember combat that goes badly.
3.  When things start off badly in combat, we flee to fight another day, and generally forget about it.
4.  Sometimes combat starts out flawlessly against a significant foe so naturally we continue the fight, however the skills of that foe inevitably begin to win out over time, and we become painfully aware of that as opposed to scenario #1 listed above.

In other words, I think it's all just recall bias.

[jhunter]

The average hunter should be terrified of a tembo (for example), but far fewer people are than should be.

I still disagree with this, if I remember correctly I assessed one and it was roughly my own size. Which would be like a very large dog. I'm sure as fuck not afraid of any dog in real life with/or without a weapon.

And as far as the Hunter Subguild doc, it's -nothing- equivalent to fighting a flipping grizzly bear.

[Delirium]

A pit bull the size of a great dane with nasty claws and teeth that would love nothing better than to rip your throat out and eat you while you're still half alive?

I'd at least want a weapon, that's for sure.

[Anonymous]

The sorceror king, Muk Ginkolnes is standing here, an aura of brilliant electric-blue light surrounding him.

Mmm ... apocalyptic humor. Thanks!

[Rhyden]

I agree a lot with AC, but my theory differs only a bit:

When you're fighting these beasties, small or large, if they seem to be beating the crap out of you near the end, chances are they were pretty close in combat level to you in the beginning. What happens, is for every time you dodge them and every time they dodge you, you're both getting better at fighting, -but-, when the beasties fight, they're tending to get several more attacks than you, no? And as they get more attacks, their attacks become more frequent and more powerful. So, by the end when they're at 'near death', their skill level has improved immensely, therefore allowing them to begin to 'beat on' you.

Another of my little theories is that since most of these beasts only ever fight one battle, usually lost to pc's, it makes sense that their wisdom would be made better as to increase their experience in porportion to their
beast's lifetime of experience. And so when they fight, they'll gain way more experience than the average pc, allowing their combat to be greater.

Honestly, I think my second theory is more realistic, and now that I look at the first, it's sort of dumb, meh, that's enough contradictions for now.  :wink:

[Kankman]

Let's say their chances of hitting you are 4 out of 10.

The first six times they missed, the last four they hit.

It could have been more evenly spaced out during  the fight, but a roll of the dice is random no matter what the odds are. There doesn't need to be anything shifty going on for this to happen.

[Anonymous]

I'm sure as fuck not afraid of any dog in real life with/or without a weapon.

Yes, because dogs are docile and (usually) do not kill people. I doubt that you'd survive if a tembo-sized, aggressive dog leapt at you and started tearing at your flesh (especially without a weapon). ... Maybe you're one of those Steven Seagal type people that get shot in the arm, and then declare that that's not a gunshot wound; it's a little prick. Sure you can say -  humans on Armageddon are tough - well, then I expect their dogs to be just as tough.

Immortals have checked this frequently, it -is- the law of averages. You're just too ignorant to notice it (well, it's true).

Sa'alam,

Dirr

[Xygax]

Being not afraid of dogs in real life seems like a major miscalculation, to me.  I've seen a trained police dog subdue a subject while wearing a muzzle.  Literally, the dog used the muzzle as a club, and it was fast enough and strong enough to fully control a grown man.

And that's just training.  Imagine what millions of years of natural selection and a life-time of killing to survive could do for a wild animal, especially in a world as harsh and unforgiving as Zalanthas.  And don't forget the teeth.

[jhunter]

Being not afraid of dogs in real life seems like a major miscalculation, to me. I've seen a trained police dog subdue a subject while wearing a muzzle. Literally, the dog used the muzzle as a club, and it was fast enough and strong enough to fully control a grown man.

You realize part of the reason the dog manages to take someone down is because the one it's going after panics.

Think about it, the dog has ahold of your arm...if your not panicking and thinking rationally about it...are a guy of decent strength...grab the dog with your free hand and lift it off the ground. This renders the animal into a thrashing weight...who's in control now?

I've been raised around animals my entire life, grew up around two dobermans that are basically paranoid schitzophrenic and not small dogs.  These animals even came snapping at us once in a while, you know what you do? Rather than pull away out of fear...ram your hand down their throat...they back right the fuck off.
I have a scar from a pit bull that attacked me once...rather than panicking...I punched it in the throat and he backed off and ran away.

Just so people don't think I don't know what I'm talking about...for those that think I'm just talking out my ass.

My point is anyway, that people are taken down by these animals...not because they don't have a chance...but because they give the animal an advantage when they panic.

Edited to add: Oh yeah...the dog with the muzzle thing...you realize that if the person had remained calm and had been thinking...they'd just have locked a grip on the muzzle itself and taken control of the animal right there?

[Agent_137]

ownage.

[Bestatte]

jhunter's dead on. I'll derail on that in a sec, but first to stick with the topic, sorta:

Gortoks are not dogs. They are feral canine creatures. Kinda like a grey wolf on steroids. Sure puppies are cute, schnauzers make fun pets, and even a rottweiler can be cuddly. But you don't snuggle up to a grey wolf in the middle of the forest, and expect to get out of it in one piece. That's just a fact of life, and gortoks are a fact of life in Armageddon.

now to derail:

If a dog lunges at you, your absolute best defense is to place your hand in its mouth and clamp down on its lower teeth, curling your fingers around its jaw. It is -defenseless- that way. It cannot bite, it cannot claw, it cannot do anything other than whimper. And even then it can't whimper very well because you've got its tongue stuck against its teeth. If you then lean over the animal (you -must- raise yourself to be at a higher elevation than the canine), and give one of its ears a sharp bite, he will back off and submit.  You don't even need to draw blood. Their ear tips are extremely sensitive.

That's how I trained my half-rottweiler/half german shepard to be a city dog without a leash. Everyone ELSE was scared shitless of her except for the folks in the 'hood, who knew she was just a big ole smoochie-bear. But for all her barking and chasing joggers and mailmen, she never once showed any signs of aggression. Even though she hung out with a pair of trained attack dobies when I was off at school for the day.

Human's "fight or flight" mentality, however, generally sends us into a panick and forces us to attempt to push the dog away, or run away ourselves. And that just proves to the dog that it -is- the dominant, and he'll turn you into his next chew-toy.

[Xamminy]

Now, tell me you wouldn't be afraid of a rabid dog the size of a pony that is mostly lizard and has teeth the size of your hand.

[Tamarin]

...she was just a big ole smoochie-bear...

Will you be my smoochie-bear?

Now, tell me you wouldn't be afraid of a rabid dog the size of a pony that is mostly lizard and has teeth the size of your hand.

Fear only extends as far as experience.  If you have this newfound knowledge that you can subdue, with relative ease, an animal that is for all intents and purposes more dangerous than you, and it's going to -kill you- anyway, you're not going to run.  You're probably going to think "well I might as well do this since I'm a dead man anyway."  And then blam.  Puppy-eyed gortok.  That or it high-tails it.

[jhunter]

If a dog lunges at you, your absolute best defense is to place your hand in its mouth and clamp down on its lower teeth, curling your fingers around its jaw. It is -defenseless- that way. It cannot bite, it cannot claw, it cannot do anything other than whimper. And even then it can't whimper very well because you've got its tongue stuck against its teeth. If you then lean over the animal (you -must- raise yourself to be at a higher elevation than the canine), and give one of its ears a sharp bite, he will back off and submit. You don't even need to draw blood. Their ear tips are extremely sensitive.

I've used this with our dobermans as well. Funny how fast they want to get away from you when you grab their jaw like that isn't it?

Human's "fight or flight" mentality, however, generally sends us into a panick and forces us to attempt to push the dog away, or run away ourselves. And that just proves to the dog that it -is- the dominant, and he'll turn you into his next chew-toy.

Absolutely correct Bestatte. You must show no fear and establish domination over the dog or you -will- get further hurt.
I worked at our animal shelter for a couple months and the animal control officers there were afraid of dogs...I found this absolutely hilarious being around dogs my entire life.

They wouldn't get in the cages with some of the dogs that came through there...claiming that the dogs snarled and growled at them whenever they came near the cage. I told them, they can tell your afraid so they're pushing it because they know -they're- in control. I would get in the cages with those same animals and they didn't growl at me...would in fact lick me and let me pet them.

Had they gotten in the cages with them, they probably would've been attacked.
To get over this derailment and in conclusion, it's actually a miscalculation to be afraid of any dog. One should be cautious with a strange dog, but not afraid.

[jhunter]

Xamminy wrote:
Now, tell me you wouldn't be afraid of a rabid dog the size of a pony that is mostly lizard and has teeth the size of your hand.

So does that mean my human pc that I was playing at the time I assessed a tembo was the size of a pony? Because it assessed the same size as my pc at the time. I seriously want to know, because if so there may have been a bug with that pc's size I wasn't aware of, then that would mean I have a misconception of the creature's size.


Why would anyone trained to fight be more afraid of an animal their size than another intelligent being with weapons their size? Humanoids attack each other from time to time.

Shit, by some of your reasoning...halfling npcs shouldn't be aggressive...considering how small they are...by what everyone else is saying it's unrealistic for them to attack anything bigger than them alone...but they do it anyway.

[sarahjc]

I also like to think of this as "last minute fear"  You are fighting a Tembo right.. so you are fighting and fighting and you seem to be kicking the crap out of it It's landed a couple solid hits on you and you have a bit of damage.. But nothing that you are gonna flee for.. I mean you are KILLING it...

You think Cool.. I am so bad ass. But then all of a sudden, it's near death and it lands one hit.. then another.. then you miss your hit and it gets ANOTHER hit.

Now you are looking not so good and this thing ISN'T Fucking Dead yet!!!

You then go blow for blow and you are looking just as bad as the Tembo was a minute ago.. So you flee. Bloody and half dead.. And now this half dead thing is tracking you.  FUCK.... This code is bullshit.

OK, now weather you live or die in this scene. Go back and take a look at your fight. How many hits did you land on that animal, and what kinds? How many did it land on you and what kinds?

I always thought it was pretty random. You may have been lucky the first round and the Tembo was lucky the second round. It may also be a -lot- stronger than you. Where as you may land 6 hits and do some damage,  it may only land 4 and have you almost dead.

It's just like that time when that Tembo was chasing you and you had almost no hit points and O stamina so you had to fight. By some miracle you were able to kill it. Same thing here, just dumb luck.

[Xamminy]

jhunter, don't take one part of why you should have some fear and make it seem as if I was saying that is the only reason or that lack of one or more of those qualities should be a reason not to fear something else.

Reasons to be afraid:
1: Rabid
2: Canine (large, powerful jaws and some claws, predator)
3: Size of a pony (tough and strong)

These things combine to be a reason to be afraid of this particular animal and this animal only.

[jhunter]

jhunter, don't take one part of why you should have some fear and make it seem as if I was saying that is the only reason or that lack of one or more of those qualities should be a reason not to fear something else.

Reasons to be afraid:
1: Rabid
2: Canine (large, powerful jaws and some claws, predator)
3: Size of a pony (tough and strong)

These things combine to be a reason to be afraid of this particular animal and this animal only.

...okaaay...so...what was the relevancy of the post then?

[Xamminy]

To tell you there are multiple reasons, and you were discounting some instead of paying attention to all, which you still seem to be missing.

[jhunter]

The main reason others gave initially was size difference.

That is what I was going off of. And yes, imo the other things are not reason enough...those things combined with a large size advantage probably is enough. With out it no.

A chihuahah can be rabid, has claws teeth...so I guess I should be afraid of one?

[Angela Christine]

I would definately be concerned if attacked by a rabid chihuahah.  Sure, it would have to get really, really lucky to kill me.  But it only has to break the skin to totally ruin my day, and it doesn't have to be very lucky to break the skin -- some of those little dogs have teeth like needles!  You don't want to mess with rabies.


I once got my ass kicked by a feral kitten, maybe three months old.  It was winter and I was trying to catch the kitten, while the kitten was trying not to be caught.  The tricky part was that I was trying to catch it without hurting it, which limited me, while the kitten was willing to do anything at all to get away from me.  The little begger bit the meaty part of my hand, right by the thumb.  Within a few hours I my hand was burning hot and I could feel the infection moving up my arm towards my elbow.  I had to go on awful antibiotics for two weeks, the antibiotic made me seriously queasy, I think it was Eurethromyacin.  Without the antibiotics . . . well, I could have been killed by the bacteria that live inside a feral kitten's mouth.  Death by kitten, that isn't going to look good in the obits.


I guess my point is that there are some ways in which an animal is worse than a guy with a weapon.  Basic weapon maintenance involves keeping it clean and dry, which incidentally means that relatively few infectious bacteria are living on it.  In contrast a nice warm, damp mouth full of nutrients is like Disneyland for bacteria, so wounds from teeth often become infected.  PCs only rarely get infections or diseases from animal bites, but that doesn't mean that people don't know how dangeous an animal bite can be.


AC

[Anonymous]

As I previously stated, dogs are DOCILE (whether they attack or not, they are generally tranquil), and they are domesticated animals. I doubt your tactics would have worked against a wolf, hardly a tiger or a lion. That was reason number one, stop comparing them to dogs (or don't).
Reason number two: Just like on Earth (this would actually occur, I'm assuming), humanoids (and other animals) would possess innate phobias of natural predators. Example - on Earth many people develop insignificant phobias for arachnids, insects, etc. Why? Because a few millennia ago, they posed a significant danger (notice that very few individuals, if any, develop phobias of guns that are much more deadlier). Likewise, on Zalanthas, humanoids (and other creatures) would possess innate phobias (caution if you prefer) for predators such as temboes.

Sa'alam,

Dirr

[jhunter]

That doesn't make any sense AC.
 

I mean really, the weapon could be poisoned anyway.



Yes, there is going to be more than one reason. My point is that it's going to take a combination of a few for people to be too afraid to attempt it. Or one -really- good one.

[jhunter]

Likewise, on Zalanthas, humanoids (and other creatures) would possess innate phobias (caution if you prefer) for predators such as temboes.

But not all, and certainly isn't guaranteed that it has to be the norm. Wolves aren't docile, they are predators...and I wouldn't be any more scared of one than I would a dog. Now several of them on the otherhand would be a different story.

Because the same things you can do to a dog would work on a wolf, in fact there are several dogs that get much bigger than a wolf.

Not everyone is afraid of spiders, snakes, dogs, cats, gerbils, wolves, dust mites.

Everyone is different, the point is that there isn't really any specific standard that everyone should be set to as correct or incorrect...just like there isn't in real life.