Shunning of newbies?

[Whira's Luck]

As I was perusing the forums as I'm wont to do from time to time, I came across this thread: http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9760 in the coding discussions board speaking of newbie eq.

I was pouring through the posts when I noticed people began talking about other, older characters shunning newbies. And then I thought back to my experiences playing a new character, both long ago and recently and I noticed that it did seem harder these days to strike up conversations with folks at the bar than before. Not by very much, really. Granted, this is my own personal experience and maybe my memory's going...

So here are the questions of the day:

Do you find it more difficult to interact with people when playing a new char (i.e. people ignoring you or shunning you -- not talking about characters who -should- be shunned like mutants, but just more 'normal' characters)? If so, why?

Do you personally shun newbie characters because you haven't seen them 'around' before hanging out at the tavern (meaning they are probably new) or because they are wearing newbie clothing? If so, why?

Do you think there's been any radical shift in the way existing players treat newbies and new characters?

In my eyes, newbies are the most valuable commodity in the game. For the 5 of them who log on thinking that it's a hack and slash mud and act accordingly, there's always 1 who really is trying hard to adjust and acclimate. Having recently referred people to the mud, it's something that's nagging on my mind. How would you say that newbies and new chars are treated these days? Shunned? Pampered over too much because they're newbs?

[Hicksville Hoochie]

Do you find it more difficult to interact with people when playing a new char (i.e. people ignoring you or shunning you -- not talking about characters who -should- be shunned like mutants, but just more 'normal' characters)? If so, why?

- Never. Perhaps it's just me, but I've found in my experiences in Armageddon, that even if I make a character who's undesireable to talk with, you CAN and WILL get interaciton out of most PCs if you set the right path for them to roleplay along.

Do you personally shun newbie characters because you haven't seen them 'around' before hanging out at the tavern (meaning they are probably new) or because they are wearing newbie clothing? If so, why?

-I give newbie characters the same rights as established characters. If my character doesn't know them, I may or may not approach, depending on what she/he discerns by their actions, or their mdesc. Recognizing someone as a newbie is an OOC actions, I hold myself away from that and treat them all equally based on how my character would.

Do you think there's been any radical shift in the way existing players treat newbies and new characters?

-Personally, no. It's always seems like a split for me that's never really changed. I've seen one character who made a short business of promising nebies riches and work at so so, and once out of safety, killed them and took their cash, I've seen some drop everything they could to help them, and I've seen some take it the way I do. Never really noticed a switch in it all though.

[Tamarin]

Personally, I make sure to keep the fuck away from players with my new PC until i've gotten myself fairly well established so that I don't -look- like a new pc in terms of equipment.

When it comes to other players, however, I judge them solely on the quality of the character.  If someone in the standard issue gear comes along with an interesting, original story to their PC (something other than "cen yu hyre me sir, pleeze?  i'm no food more...need job..."), I will pay a lot of attention and try and form some sort of rapport.  I am not the greatest for accepting -flat out newbies- (that's what helpers are for), but I will gladly play with a new character provided the have something other to say than the standard job-search mumbo jumbo.

[JollyGreenGiant]

It's a tough call.  You want to stay IC as much as possible, obviously, but at the same time, you don't wanna leave the newbies out in the cold (heat, whatever) trying to fend for themselves and failing miserably.  Still, there's a lot of room in between, most of the time, even if your character is a miserable cuss whose idea of conversation is monosyllabic grunts.

Maybe its all the Uber RPers who say you shouldn't single out PCs over NPCs. So everyone is sitting in silence, thinking " I am such an Uber Rper, I am totally not noticing these PCs, perhaps I will chat with this VNPC."

Me personally, I try to interact with them if its possible IC. But unfortunately, sometimes, if your character is paranoid or other innumeral factors, it  just doesn't fit.

[Anonymous]

When I was a newbie oh not so long ago some people went out of their way to get me acclimated. It was a huge help to me. I try to return the favor to the Newbies I mean.

But are you specifically speaking of Newbie Characters or New PC's? Cause there is a big difference.  My PC's may not always notice new PCs. I also many not always speak with a new PC. Cause well, My PC may just not feel like it. But if I see a Newbie struggling, I may go out of my way to speak to them or at least assist with some of the Mechanics if they are having trouble.

[Krath]

I may get shunned for this but whatever, its cool. I will step out of character briefly and interact
with "New PCs" and gauge if they are a true newbie or not. If they are then, I am going to make
it convient for them to play and give the the link to the helpers site or tell them to IM Me.
Newbies are our future,  might as well be nice, and help them get into the game.

[My 2 sids]

Yes, I do find it most difficult to interact when I've made a new character.  Actually, it isn't shunning or ignoring that I find difficult; it's being overwhelmed.  It seems that instead of letting new PCs develop everyone pounces on them, demanding them to immediately take sides or perform and then ostracizing them if the new PC doesn't comply.  Worse still, they might flat out kill them or politically silence the new PC.  Part of Armageddon pride is it's players, pc concepts, and diversity.  When this sort of polarization happens to a new PC I can't help but think we are shooting ourselves in the foot.  We are depriving ourselves of what could become one of the greatest PCs of all times; simply by not allowing that PC to develop normally.


Yes, sadly even in the short amount of time I've been here I see a large shift in newbie and new character climate.  I think part of the shift (problem) is this growing mentality that byn/academies/atriums/helpers are the ones who should help newbies so others don't need to be bothered.  Couple that with the climate on the GDB that all newbies and people who play other muds are incompetent or bad and well, it's just not a friendly climate.  We will always draw new players to the game, but how we welcome them will make the difference between attracting (and keeping) players who want to learn how to better role-play and those who just don't care.

[John]

Taking into consideration that it's been a while since I've played (damn university getting in the way), I would say 14 weeks ago the climate for newbies wasn't too bad actually.

Do you find it more difficult to interact with people when playing a new char (i.e. people ignoring you or shunning you -- not talking about characters who -should- be shunned like mutants, but just more 'normal' characters)? If so, why?

Sure it's a little difficult compared to a char that's lived for 20 weeks, but it isn't overly difficult. I've found at the beginning I'm still getting a feel for my char (and for recent events) so I'll sit back and slip in when I feel comfortable (and that doesn't mean I'll be friendly or get along, it just means I'll fit into the space for my character).

Do you personally shun newbie characters because you haven't seen them 'around' before hanging out at the tavern (meaning they are probably new) or because they are wearing newbie clothing? If so, why?

Neither (as I've actually forgotten what newbie gear looks like ). It's sometimes easy to be stuck in newbie gear for a day or two so I don't treat people differently based on that. You can instead tell they're newbies by how they act, and unfortunately I will treat them slightly different. If a non-newbie asks me the way to Salarr I'll say "How much is it worth to ya?" whereas if a newbie asks me "Where can I get a sword" I'm more inclined to say "oh you wantta go to Salarrs, I'm heading that way myself why don't I show ya." I won't go COMPLETELY OOC (unless we're alone then I'll point them to a couple of helpful docs), but I'm more inclined to help them out if I can (and it's easy to justify it, even if you're an elf). However if I've spent the past half hour with a newbie, I'm going to need to flee self, because a lot of the times it can be frustrating. I won't help a newbie beyond the point where it starts to make my game unenjoyable, but they've got me until then.

Do you think there's been any radical shift in the way existing players treat newbies and new characters?

Not a radical one, but I'd say there has been a gradual shift. When I was first a newbie a couple of fellows helped me out and gave me the time of my life which is why I'm still here. I'd say nowadays, not as likely to happen (but I may have just been lucky that one time )

[Agent_137]

I agree with this:

I won't help a newbie beyond the point where it starts to make my game unenjoyable, but they've got me until then.

At that point, I go OOC and say:
"Look, I can tell you're new. And we're glad you're here, but all your questions can be more easily answered by going to this page http:blahblah and adding all those helpers to your buddy list. Spam them with questions, that's why they are there."

And then I'll make up some IC excuse there shortly, and excuse myself.

Unless they're in my clan. Then I grit my teeth and prepare for the long haul.

[Bestatte]

When I was a new player: It was a cinch. But it was a cinch because I pushed the interaction. I didn't wait for it to come to me. When I pushed, I got the interaction I wanted, and all was ducky from that point on. By "push" I don't mean "being pushy." I just mean I was the one who took the first step.

When I play new characters: Same thing, no difference.

How I deal with new players: Depends on a number of things really.

1) My mood at the time. Sometimes I just plain don't wanna be helpful. So I'll back off and let someone else handle things.

2) What kind of RP is going on at the time. If I'm getting my ass handed to me by a silt horror, I am -not- going to stop attempting to flee just because a newbie walks up bleeding profusely and exhausted and asking if I know where he can log out safely. If my character is involved in any serious kinda situation and a newbie shows up and interrupts, I -might- attempt to help, depending on what he's trying to do. It's never too much of an interruption to simply "ooc type exit to leave the building, enter to get back in." Helping him with new clothes is another matter entirely.

3) Whether or not the newbie is making any perceptable attempt to help himself. If he shows up in the game and starts talking in l33t sp34k I will not help him. At all. In fact I will probably take myself and my RP somewhere else. There are very few things that I feel are "MUST-READS" on the website. The rules are one of them. This is a roleplay game. If you aren't sure what that means, read more - until you are sure what it means.

4) Whether or not the player's understanding of the english language is reasonable. No, I have no gripes against foreigners. I come from a long line of them myself, in fact. It's more a matter of me being able to understand them, and vice versa. I get impatient if I'm trying to RP and have to spend a half hour deciphering someone's english. It's even harder for me when someone whose first language isn't English, chooses to play a PC with an accent. Y'kno' 'dem kin' acc'nts 'det h'v t'appos'ro'e's en ev'ry t'rd' lt'er and you probably wouldn't understand a damned thing he said even if he was a freaking Rhoades Scholar typing like that.

That's also a by the way to veterans, item #4. If I have to spend any amount of time trying to decipher what your character is saying because you've chosen to thrust apostrophes into words in such a manner that they can give the average tolerant person a headache, then please keep your RP away from me.  I am more tolerant toward foreigners who can't help themselves, than I am to people who intentionally make it impossible to be understood.

I help new folks all the time. In every character I've had so far, I've included some character trait that would give them a reason to help new players ICly. And OOCly, depending on my mood, and current RP situation, and whether or not the player is trying to improve, I am usually more than happy to take time out of the RP to give them a hand.

[Cenghiz]

I do help them... I like to help them... Because it flatters me . Only one exception... I remember well.. I was playing a strange char, a blind gemmer. (more than a year passed.. This can't be IC.) A newbie character came in.. So I decided to help him. We chattered a little then... She said "I am a thief.". I quickly responded: "OOC: Err.. I guess you wouldn't say it IC." Answer was quick too. "Yes I would." So I decided to 'show' her what happens when she tells someone she's a thief. My character got away as quick as possible (I had to grope for the exit, bump into people etc.) And when she tried to come near me again yelling "Wait!" I even used a very little cantrip to frighten her IC and quickly got back to my quarter.
Eh, where were we left? Hah, I help newbies because we need them, and you may have great fun meeting them. I've never seen anyone specially ignoring newbies except a few fools I'm seeing these days killing linkdead players. And let them be sure I'll kill them for both IC and OOC reasons if I can catch them.

EDITED TO ADD... Let's see how much I like newbies with this thing I posted long ago...

My comment: Let the n00bs carry their lazy asses to the bazaar. Waste of coding time. It won't succeed. No sire. Let them start naked so we can have some fun in Gaj. Let them have to walk on burning coal with naked feet to get to the bazaar. Let a band of gith protect the entrance of the bazaar. Let the temple of Drov be the entrance of Bazaar and let there be 4 NPC drovians casting curses continuously.
....
Let there be light! (Wow. I felt like a god for a moment.)

[Gilvar]

Granted this is from a player prespective and not a staff member.

--- How people 'treat' each other, when not in a developed friendship/relationship, pretty much relates back to Armageddon's basic concept - that being your living on a harsh desert planet, where (from the introduction info) only the fittest survive.  Still from the intro, your player wil llikely face hardship and assuredly death. Unless you have some established background to the contrary (like modest merchant parents, etc), your poor, everyone you know is likely poor, or just getting by with no extravagent wealth.

--- Now these conditions arn't the BEST breeding ground for friendship. People wouldn't usuaully go out of their way to be 'friends' with someone, or greet them etc, unless there was some expected gain from doing so. And in a world where liars, cheaters, thieves and murderers are rampant that person right next to you at the bar could already have half of your life-savings you had in your pack.

--- So I'm not saying we should nescessarily distrust everyone, but I can't picture bubbly, talkative, and social-butterfly personalities as being the norm, as it typically is on other MUDs because they tend to be about meeting/hanging out with other people, hunting with other people, etc. That isn't really what Arm is about (to me at least). Alot of people probably depressively keep to themselves, or snap easily because the mix of hunger, hard-work, and heat is getting to them. Its not about social interaction  for the sake of interaction, but interaction bred through various facets of conflict, be that two people at odds with each other, two people at odds with someone else, etc.

--- Tying back to what I said towards the top, only the fittest survive in Zalanthas, and there is obvious strength in numbers. So friendships, partnerships, and cordial acquaintances do exist, if just for the sake of not being enemies with everyone.  But the trust issue will always play a part, and trust isn't immediately gained, ESPECIALLY in Zalanthas. You'd start with anything but trust for this random stranger with a sudden interest in talking to you and learning more, and gradually develop a neutrality and possibly trust of them.



--- There is also something that is prevalent in most communities, be that people, games, etc. And that is cliques. Cliques of people who may be friends outside the game, established friendships through the game and now AIM each other, etc. And then generally veteran players who interact more easily with other veterans.

--- New people to game/mudding are usually instantly noticeable. Some non-mud (but new to arm) characters blend better, but you have the guys that don't understand the talk system (heck I didn't), sit at random people's tables, talk oocly, etc. These are obvious newbs and sometimes receive better treatment. Then you have newbies who are obvious veterans, spouting off two-three line emotes in their first 2 seconds, instantly meeting and greeting, and obviously understanding basic strategy concepts of the game (like making contacts if your a merchant, looking for a job, etc.), because they know that their little newbie sid can only buy so much.

--- I have no qualms about being harsh with an obvious non-newbie to the game. But when a character comes along, hardly knowing how to speak, I'm generally more lenient with interactions (either with my PCs or NPCs), because I know how it is, I was there once too.

Do you think there's been any radical shift in the way existing players treat newbies and new characters?

Sorta. We seem to be nicer to genuine newbies. But even new characters tend to be received well. Offered jobs by recruiters almost instantly, etc.

[sjanimal]

Yeah, noobs seem to be welcomed with open arms, which I think is good.  I guess we deserve a pat on the back, those of hus who've been doing it.

This shout goes out to employers who would hire my character before I could even emote correctly, and when I told them I was a noob, they were like

"ooc: that really doesn't have any bearing on game play".

[LoD Snarf]

Having started several clans and recruit many a newbie, I suppose I just have a habit of wanting to steer them in the right direction.  I used to try and hire every newbie I could find and give them something to do that would help them learn the game.

Many newbies I see are wandering around the City pathetically trying to find something to do.  Someone usually tells them to try and find the Byn because it's a relatively newbie-friendly atmosphere, but it doesn't hurt to take these people aside one on one.  I would often give them small tasks or chores to do that I didn't really need to be accomplished, but it helped that player learn and become more proficient in the game.

I see a line drawn between new players and new characters, of course.  If the person is a new player, and is making mistakes such as 'reading' the IC board, not understanding social structure, or how to buy things, I will stop and take the time to show them around and ICly teach them how to do a lot of the basics, OOCing when necessary to answer a question or two.

There's a saying that I saw on a grade school wall, and it still holds true:

Tell me, I forget.
Show me, I remember.
Involve me, I understand.

I try to involve every newbie I can find, so that they, too, can understand the great experience they can get out of Armageddon.  I want as many players as possible to enjoy Armageddon and give us a greater backdrop against which to play - and assisting new players is a great way to help retention, and it really doesn't take much out of your day.

-LoD

[Tedronai]

The Academy isn't *that* much of a newbie friendly environment. At least, nowhere near the level that the Byn is. There is alot more expected from them in terms of long term OOC/IC committment. Those who are going in also have established destinations based on whom their sponsor is.

What I've noticed, is that newbies who are brought into the Academy, end up either getting kicked out or never being seen again as they lose interest with all the rules.