Shop Stocks

[Cavus]

I don't know whether it was stated before, or not, but here is an idea. There are virtually lots of crafters in all cities, right? All those crafters need some materials. In this respect, they will go to shops and buy materials for themselves. That causes a decrease at amount of that materials in stock of shops.

In other words, a hunter should be available to sell his loot most of the time. There could be a constant amount of decrease at level of stocked materials codedly. Let's say a shop buys only 5 of a material, but an armorer guy comes to the shop every week and buys two of the materials, and goes to his home, and makes his great armors. In this way, a poor hunter can sell his material to that shop, so he may buy some food.

Zalanthas is huge, and making the economy dependent only on PCs does not make sense. We have thousands of citizens at each city.

What is your opinion, folk?

[JollyGreenGiant]

As I am entirely too lazy to do it myself, I hereby summon Lazloth to find the thread where something like this was discussed about a month ago...

[Lazloth]

Here're a couple:
Some thoughts about independent things
How to get players involved
This is what's wrong with the game's economy.

[Agent_137]

PCs deal with PCs, VNPCs deal with VNPCs.
All the VNPC hunters' materials that are sold to shops are bought by VNPC crafters.

All of the PC materials sold to the shops plus some VNPC materials are bought by PC crafters.

[My 2 sids]

Or... maybe a hunter and a merchant should hook up and both work together.  Idea :idea:

[Xamminy]

Wanted, one merchant who likes to take everything I give...

No, personal ads are not for Zalanthas, I think.

[Gilvar]

As I believe it was stated, the virtual population provides for the virtual population. Just like there are 'virtual crafters' buying all the time in every city, there are equally 'virtual hunters' selling their loot all the time.

Not the best system, but it works, and has been working for a while now.

[Kill4Free]

But the limit of 5 isnt really good, as a pc merchant that needs to buy, say, grass to make baskets, will need a lot of grass, more then the 5 the shop will have available.  And someone who wants to sell grass will only be able to sell only 5.  The main purpose of the shops like that I believe, is to act like a temporary middle man, but since they dont have enough stock, and the stock they do have, have obscene selling prices, they are almost useless, save as a small source or income for starting out hunters, and foragers.

[wizturbo]

As I am entirely too lazy to do it myself, I hereby summon Lazloth to find the thread where something like this was discussed about a month ago...

ROFL  AND IT WORKED!

[Kill4Free]

I propose the best way to do it, would be after 5 items of a type were sold, instead of refusing to buy more, they just offer to buy them for less.  Making it so people who -need- to sell stuff, will get some sid, and people who want to buy larger quantities, will be able to manage that.

[Agent_137]

The main purpose of the shops like that I believe, is to act like a temporary middle man, but since they dont have enough stock, and the stock they do have, have obscene selling prices, they are almost useless, save as a small source or income for starting out hunters, and foragers.

Consider this immortal encouragement to go and find a PC to deal with instead of an NPC.

Yea, there's room for improvement, but the system we have WORKS, so it's kinda low on the list of things to do. I don't want to stifle ideas . . . but I do want you to know there is a GOOD alternative in the mean time.

Plus, if the shops were great on an OOC level . . .there would be less reason to deal with PCs, which would be BAD in every which way.

[Kill4Free]

There wouldnt really be less reason, as finding pc's would mean more profit.  As any decent player, will make it his goal to find someone to supply.  Also, most pc's prefer to buy in bulk, like not many people will walk all the way across town to buy like four grass stems.  But if everyone sold it to the shop, then it would be a lot easier for merchants to get bulk quantities of basic items.


But part of the problem is, is that lots of items are almost completely useless to craft, I wont provide examples, but I know of at least a half dozen fairly valuable items, that crafting them into the most expensive thing that you can make out of them, will lower the selling price, as well as risk losing it all.
Although I dont really have a problem with that, as the expensive items are generally rather rare, and the 5 quantity limit doesnt really matter a lot.

[Marc]

But part of the problem is, is that lots of items are almost completely useless to craft, I wont provide examples, but I know of at least a half dozen fairly valuable items, that crafting them into the most expensive thing that you can make out of them, will lower the selling price, as well as risk losing it all.

If you find something that when crafted sells for less then the raw material then EMAIL THE ACCOUNT AND BUG THE ITEM.

It is an oversight.  It is not what was intended.  Don't just get irritated.  Get activated.  Get the problem fixed!

[Bestatte]

But part of the problem is, is that lots of items are almost completely useless to craft, I wont provide examples, but I know of at least a half dozen fairly valuable items, that crafting them into the most expensive thing that you can make out of them, will lower the selling price, as well as risk losing it all.

If you find something that when crafted sells for less then the raw material then EMAIL THE ACCOUNT AND BUG THE ITEM.

It is an oversight.  It is not what was intended.  Don't just get irritated.  Get activated.  Get the problem fixed!

That is...inarguably untrue. I've done that - e-mail and use the bug command, and was told on several items something like this:

Well, Bestatte, the shop has to take the taxes into account so it can't afford to pay you what you think it should. The raw material is set fine, the object made from that raw material is set fine, and nothing will be changing.

One finished product can get me around 150 sids. If I wanted to buy the raw materials, I would have to pay 250 sids for one of the components, 24 sids for another of the components, and yes - I can get the third for only 24, IF I go to another city to pick it up. Otherwise it's 30.

Another finished product will get me 27 sids from one shop, 4 sids from another shop, and the third shop won't buy it at all. If I had to buy the raw material from a shop, I'd be outta luck. It isn't sold anywhere that I know of. So - I would have to buy it from a PC. The current going rate for this raw material is around 50 sids.

Then there's a high-end item - the only place I know to buy the raw material offers it for 700 sids. The only thing I can make from it sells to the NPC shops for 183 sids.

MOST items of this crafting type are like this. Some will net a huge profit. But most will cost, if I had to pay for the raw materials. Fortunately I don't...but not everone is that fortunate.

[Cavus]

MOST items of this crafting type are like this. Some will net a huge profit. But most will cost, if I had to pay for the raw materials. Fortunately I don't...but not everone is that fortunate.

A crafter should buy his raw materials from a PC, so both side earns more. Let's say X has 85 selling price at a shop. A PC can sell X to that shop for 30. Crafter can buy X from that PC by paying let's say 50. In this way, both sides make profit.
Second part of the problem, crafter has to sell most of his crafted items to PCs because he can make double profit. A shop will but Y for 20, and it will sell Y for 50-60. Our crafter can sell Y to a PC for 50. He has 30 coins more profit in this way.
Of course, some items cost so much even if you sell them to a PC. For these situations, you should wait for a PC to come up with his raw material and wants you to make that item for him with a price.
For better PC life, we should handle trade with PCs rather than shops.

[Kill4Free]

What I meant is
items X sells for 150
item X can be crafted into item B
Highest selling price for item B, is 110

It doesnt bother me much, it just makes an any attempt to craft less then useless.  But I will bug it, see if anything changes.

[Bestatte]

Agreed Cavus. Now just go ahead and convince the player population that they actually want to buy this stuff from other PCs.

I've gone around and around on this issue in the past. There is no resolution, there's no "simple answer" until the players stop relying on NPC merchants to buy or sell raw materials and finished goods. And THAT won't happen until the code stops supporting this habit.

[Angela Christine]

But part of the problem is, is that lots of items are almost completely useless to craft, I wont provide examples, but I know of at least a half dozen fairly valuable items, that crafting them into the most expensive thing that you can make out of them, will lower the selling price, as well as risk losing it all.

If you find something that when crafted sells for less then the raw material then EMAIL THE ACCOUNT AND BUG THE ITEM.

It is an oversight.  It is not what was intended.  Don't just get irritated.  Get activated.  Get the problem fixed!

That is...inarguably untrue. I've done that - e-mail and use the bug command, and was told on several items something like this:

Well, Bestatte, the shop has to take the taxes into account so it can't afford to pay you what you think it should. The raw material is set fine, the object made from that raw material is set fine, and nothing will be changing.

One finished product can get me around 150 sids. If I wanted to buy the raw materials, I would have to pay 250 sids for one of the components, 24 sids for another of the components, and yes - I can get the third for only 24, IF I go to another city to pick it up. Otherwise it's 30.

I think that is a slightly different situation.  Suppose you forage for rocks, and then carve rocks into things.  If you go to the shop with a rock and they offer you 10 sids for it, then you craft the rock into another item and try to sell it to the shop, and they offer you 8 sids for it.  Crafting should add-value, not reduce it.    

Now if you BUY a rock for 10 sids, and are only able to sell the finished product for 8 sids, that isn't a bug.  Because when the shop trys to sell it they will want more than 10 sids for it, so value has, in fact, been added.  The item is worth more than when you bought the raw material, but since you are paying for the shop markup both when you buy and when you sell you may lose money.  You were buying your raw material at retail prices, only suckers pay retail.  :twisted:

The "value" command is helpful for detecting true bugs or mistakes.  If the base value of the material goes down after a successful crafting attempt, then there is probably something wrong.  It is also fun to watch for weight changes, which you can do with value.  I once crafted a log into some planks, then some planks into a chest, and the weight changed each time.  The weight changes were small enough that I could explain it away as some material being lost in a small weight decrease, and the addition of virtual components (hinges and whatnot) in small weight increase.  But if it had been a huge weight change I probably would have bugged it.  I love Value.



AC

[wizturbo]

A merchant can haggle so effectively their profit margins almost always turn out okay.  Non-merchants, shouldn't be so effective, right?

[Bestatte]

Heh - the only value I get with value is who made the item, if there actually is a make-flag on it.

I can value one object a dozen times and come up with drastically different weights and coin values of the object each time. Most of the time though, the object weighs "1" - but when it isn't weighing "1" it's usually weighing 12, or 45, or 63...and that's using "value" on the same item, a few times in a row.

Sometimes it'll tell me it's worth 50 sids. Sometimes it's only worth 1. Sometimes it's worth 82. I never know what it's gonna say - but I DO know that it isn't either of what a shop will pay for it, or sell it for.

My subguild docs suggest that I'm supposed to be pretty good with value. And after playing the character for - err - a long time now - I haven't hit the mark yet.