We're all a bunch of hobos

[Geekfreak]

Did it ever occur to anybody that most people in Zalanthas are hobos? I mean, how many of you pcs out there actually have a home that you live in? Not many, right? I mean, there are public sleeping areas and such, but with so many homeless people in cities, these sleeping areas would be packed! So, most of us are hobos, right? Homeless...

I was just wondering if those of you who don't own a rich, luxurious estate or a low cramped room in an apartment building actually play like hobos, finding a nice quiet side of the street to lay your dirty sandcloth mat on to turn in for the day...

I'm not really concerned with the homelessness of the people in Zalanthas as most of us seem to get along fine, I was just wondering if anybody had anything to say about the concept...feel free to completely disagree or agree with what I've had to say...

[Gilvar]

Most people are not homeless. Likely if your living with your wife, your wife's parents, maybe her sister and her sister's husband, an some old, oddly still alive relative, you can afford a small shack if the majority of you are working.

The problem is no enough realstically priced hovels in the world to rent, or enough just 'empty' places to take over and squat in. Everything is an apartment or a house and expensive because it has a lock.

[Geekfreak]

Ya, I see what you mean...if there were a hundred hovels created in one city, where people keep all their things, there would probably be no lock, as it is a small shack...but the conflict with arise with thieves and burglars, even commoners as well who would abuse the system to merely get a few bucks by entering the shacks and stealing everthing in sight...any suggestions on how this -could- work?

-GF

[Anonymous]

My character is a street elf who lives in a virtual hovel of sorts along with his virtual tribal family.  I have no advantage to coded storage, obviously, but as a piss poor resident of the city, my character isn't likely to require much storage beyond the usual backpack routine.  

Not having a coded facility doesn't automatically make one a "bum".  It doesn't make you a homosexual necessarily either but I'm not allowed to talk about that (just kidding ).

[facehugger]

I think that, in the end, this comes down between a mix of code issue and abuse issues.

Why a majority of the PCs represent the "upper cust" of Zalanthas, the 1% of the population that might actually be able to afford to have a cheap lock on their door, it would be a nightmarish issue to a) keep track of who's place is who's with the fairly rapid turnaround rate with PCs and b) Build in dozens if not hundreds of coded "hovels", if you will.

And the abuse... Like many of our own world's old-world villages, there were huts, tents, hovels, all places without locks. Most people would have a collection of relative junk: threadbare clothing, crusty chipped plates, a few stools... and then have only a very few things of actual value. The relative junk would be safe in their unlocked hovel, because who the hell would want to steal it? And those very few valuables would be kept on their person at all times.

The problem with Arm (and more or less every other mud in existance) is that, unlike reality, you will find players who will steal ANYTHING and EVERYTHING they would find in an unlocked hovel, even if it is completely useless.

So, what it boils down to, is that you will likely never find a coded residence for every PC in the game. If you can't manage to get yourself one of these, then just RP having or sharing some small hovel.

And stop collecting so much stuff.  :shock:

[sjanimal]

Yeah, bud.  Everyone has someplace to live for the most part.  It might be a single room shac k with like 20 other people, but if your character is willing to shell out fifty or a hundred obsidian some desperate family will take you in.

Very Good question.

[Spice-crazed Jozhal]

Most people are not homeless. Likely if your living with your wife, your wife's parents, maybe her sister and her sister's husband, an some old, oddly still alive relative, you can afford a small shack if the majority of you are working.

And theft of your worthless chipped dishes and ragged pallets isn't a problem, because with that many people living in a shack there are probably always a couple people at home.  Unfortunately virtual relatives only deter VNPC theives.

[sacac]

Get more PC's to pay rent with you

[sjanimal]

I think that many of us missed the points of GeekFreak's original post (myself included.)  

Part of his post seemed to ask if those of us who are playing hobos role-play some of the grittier aspects of the lifestyle.

And the answer is no, most of us don't.  You raise a very good point though, bud.  Maybe that's something to keep in mind.

[Uglyhead]

Speaking of hobos, doesn't anyone think it would be sorta neat to have bindles in-game? You know, the stick-things with pouches on the end that hobos always have. Yeah.

New subguild idea: Hobo

skills: hobo-knifery, bindle use, caravan-hopping.

[Jacques]

On the subject of hobos, I think it is important to note that hobos were NOT the bums many of us (me too, until recently) seem to think. They were (as a general rule) laborers who moved from place to place as the work dried up or came available. Gritty and crude? Absolutely. Scrimping to save every dime? Damn right. But they weren't usually stowing away (and risking their lives) just for a joyride - they were trying to get somewhere to find more work. And for every one that made it, ten died trying. (not unlike a friendlier version of Arm would be, I guess  :twisted: )

I don't see this kind of thing in Arm - I see people tending to stay in the same city, even if they're out of work. PCs may go from one place to another to find a new job, but even then it's rare.

So I guess I'm the rare "anti-Arm-hobo". I'd personally use the term "vagrant" to describe the Arm situation. But then again, what do *I* know?  :wink:

[sarahjc]

I have an Idea...

I mean think about it, the cities are overcrowded, teaming with poor, and everyone needs a place to sleep right? How many can a public dormitory hold??.. and is it really safe to sleep with so many people who are soo poor that they can't get a place to live??

Maybe this is a bit out there and taxes really hard on code, but I always thought that an apartment would be really expensive to rent just for yourself. Something like 2000 sid a year, or more and that's for one of those shitty places in the bad part of town. Why?? Because Why not?? There is demand and Nenyuk really doesn't care how many people need to live there to pay for it.

What could be done is have them set up so that when you rent a place the Nenyuki would give you two keys. One to your Apartment, and one to a chest within that apartment. The cost of your rent would depend on how many people live there . And not only that.. but people you don't know would be living there.  Lets say a small shitty tenement costs 2000 sid a year.  The Banker decides that they can have 6-7 people live in there and that they will charge 350 a month in rent per each person/chest. This can get them more than what the potential of one tenant would pay.. and there is always some form of rent coming in as opposed to the one tenant that dies and doesn't pay for two IG years.

So lets say you have three NPC's that live there and 3 pcs.  That keeps your PC living cost down to 350 a year. But you PC has to deal with cramped space, shared everything, strangers and people who may or may not try to steal your stuff and almost no privacy.  I think this resembles closely to what Calcutta would look like and that is basically what I think of when I think of Arm cities.  Everyone is pretty poor, and most likely live with a bunch of other really poor people. Only the most well to do would be able to afford a place of their own and have the kind of sway you would need to even get one.

I mean is this ideal for Mudsexors.. No. But I think it's a bit more realistic and could lead to a nice amount of small conflict.

Again, just an idea. It would involve an upheaval of how the apartments are coded now and how PC's rent them now.

[Tamarin]

Did it ever occur to anybody that most people in Zalanthas are hobos? I mean, how many of you pcs out there actually have a home that you live in? Not many, right?

The whole world is my home.  The sky is my roof.  The air is my walls.  The ground is my floor.

The allanak dragon temple is my outhouse.

[Agent_137]

I mean is this ideal for Mudsexors.. No.

Hm....work the NPCs into the scene with emotes... hmm....

-chortle-

No, it's an interesting idea, though it sounds like something that can easily be done already. Suggest it to your local Nenyuk family member.

[Nidhogg]

I have an Idea...


...an apartment would be really expensive to rent just for yourself. Something like 2000 sid a year, or more and that's for one of those shitty places in the bad part of town. ...There is demand and Nenyuk really doesn't care how many people need to live there to pay for it.

What could be done is have them set up so that when you rent a place the Nenyuki would give you two keys. One to your Apartment, and one to a chest within that apartment. The cost of your rent would depend on how many people live there . And not only that.. but people you don't know would be living there.  Lets say a small shitty tenement costs 2000 sid a year.  The Banker decides that they can have 6-7 people live in there and that they will charge 350 a month in rent per each person/chest. This can get them more than what the potential of one tenant would pay.. and there is always some form of rent coming in as opposed to the one tenant that dies and doesn't pay for two IG years.

So lets say you have three NPC's that live there and 3 pcs.  That keeps your PC living cost down to 350 a year. But you PC has to deal with cramped space, shared everything, strangers and people who may or may not try to steal your stuff and almost no privacy.  


Again, just an idea. It would involve an upheaval of how the apartments are coded now and how PC's rent them now.

I like this idea a great deal. Mind you that doesn't mean it's going in tomorrow, or necessarily at all, but it's worth exploring definitely.

[Geekfreak]

Thanks sjanimal, that was my original arguement; wheather people did or didn't role play themselves as hobos when most of us are.

[Rhyden]

I like sarahjc's idea. It would be difficult to build but it would lead to countless conflict and good rping.

[Bestatte]

Maybe I'm not "getting" it about Arm..but I always thought that the vast majority of "people living in Zalanthas" had living families, who had places where they lived. The street descriptions in cities are chock full of virtual houses, tenement rows, shacks, huts, etc. etc. etc...

Coded villages outside the cities all refer to assorted hovels and other ramshackle buildings with the occasional well-built home.

Most of the characters I've played had living breathing families. Aunts, uncles, cousins, one had a father who might or might not have been alive, another even had an invisible twin brother she called Myshel. All of these virtual family members had a place to live. Just because I, as a player, couldn't go to the virtual house and open the virtual door and step into the virtual living room, didn't mean it didn't exist.

I don't think most of us are hobos or orphans or homeless at all. I just think our homes are virtually there, and inaccessable other than through RPing their existence.

We take apartments in the city because we want to be closer to where we work, or to have a crash pad away from our pesky brothers, or because Mom threw us out when she found out we were evil magickers..

And in one instance, one of my characters had a virtual home she talked about, with brothers and an uncle still living, and that's where she'd be off to when I logged off for the night.

Am I wrong in making the assumption that most people DO have homes, albeit virtual and non-coded?

[Marauder Moe]

I've had characters with virtual housing before.  I don't think its wrong at all unless you're a 'rinther playing as though he had a big 6-room condo or something.

[Eclipse]

I liked sarahjc's suggestions personally though instead of having chests that people rented in an apartment with other strangers, I would suggest having one room that's filled with shelves. These shelves would be one large networked system (perhaps 6 high, 20 long) that a single guard would patrol to make sure people weren't using a single key on all the locks (as in a person who stole a key and had no idea where it went), or lockpicking/stealing from somebody who was sifting through his/her locker. This room wouldn't be closed off with a lockable door since there wouldn't be a need to be and would in fact be better to not have a door at all so if the militia were needed, they could get in quickly.

The overall cost to Nenyuk would be a fixed construction cost and the monthly fee for the guard though the variable cost would be low due to the one guard and many lockers. One person rents a locker for say one hundred obsidian per month, a hundred and twenty of those would bring in twelve thousand which would easily cover the cost of the guard.

If a person wanted to share chests in an isolated room with complete strangers, I'd suggest joining some sort of clan or renting an apartment and buying many keys from one Nenyuki agent and renting out the place to people you meet (this way you can gauge who you want to take the risks with). With a House, you're affiliated in some way and supposedly they should have standards so you have some security. If you rent out space in your apartment or rent from somebody who's renting out chests in an apartment, you have an idea of the renters or the rentees and can decide based on rumors and gossip which you want to shack up with.

As to apartments in general, I'd rather see the prices shifted higher up and varying with the social status and affiliations of the individual. I.E. House employees get better prices than independents (various IC reasons for this other than social status - i.e. aren't likely to get killed in the scrub and the key be lost forever, if the rental is unpaid you can badger their superiors for it and if they're unwilling to pay, increase costs to the other employees from said House in the future, etc.), higher social status gets priority - if you're already renting out everything, the next pay season that comes, low social status people get shifted out in favor of high.

[Agent_137]

I like to think everyone has somewhere to crash regularlly besides the fucking gaj. The reason they carry around their shit all the time is because that place isn't secure at all. Maybe it's a overhang . . . maybe it changes nightly, maybe it's a place shared with a bunch of VNPCs...it's up to you to decide, or just not mention like most people do.