Darkness in cities, Darkness in the wilds.

[RunningMountain]

I don't know if this has ever been discussed but it came to me recently.  Rangers have the ability to know where they are at all times (being able to move in darkness).  What I wanted to bring up was why would rangers know how to move about in the cities?  If they cannot find a suitable place to hide and can't move about furtively through the streets, why would they be able to move straight and true in pitch darkness, I think a ranger would be a bumbling fool in the city if it was dark.  Now I know some people will say well you shouldn't look at it like that, because we're looking at code, but that's the point, why is the code differentiating the hide/sneak, it should also differentiate their ability to move about and place their feet true, but in the wilds where they have the natural affinity for it, no in the cities.  Anybody?

-RM

[Bestatte]

Good question. No answer. But when I play a ranger, I usually -do- roleplay fumbling a bit in the dark, in or out of cities.

We can figure out which direction to travel in, but it doesn't mean we won't bump into a VNPC kid sucking his thumb on the side of the road, or into the corner of a building.

[Cenghiz]

No I don't agree with that...

Rangers hide in the wilds with ease, but they can't do well in cities.. Because in the city you don't -usually- hide under a table. You try to look like an uninteresting average joe and blend in the crowd, which a ranger would not know how to. Also he would not know to rush into a side street in the 'rinth.

A ranger knows how to walk in the sand fast and silent enough, but to blend in the crowd and walk unnoticed is not something he can.

A ranger can count his steps and remember where he went even in darkness. He can notice the alteration on the surface and find his way. In the city he would still be able to wander safely in total darkness. You know, he's used to that. He would remember: "Yes, 28 steps more and there was a steep surface. Let me not stagger and fall. Then there was a street to the right after about 20 steps more."

Just my two wooden coins.

[Lazloth]

I disagree with the ranger-lovers (but also have seen threads disappear for less "IC content").  Nice point, country road.

With the current segregation between outdoors & city skills, this should be another to suffer similar, imho.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Agreed with Lazloth.

[Agent_137]

agreed with cenghiz.

It's not some uber-spooky desert intuition, guys. It's "I can keep track of where I've been."

Granted, as said, that's not to say he won't be bumping into any moving people, or screw up sometimes, but it's absurd to try to split such a basic skill.

[RunningMountain]

No I don't agree with that...

A ranger can count his steps and remember where he went even in darkness. He can notice the alteration on the surface and find his way. In the city he would still be able to wander safely in total darkness. You know, he's used to that. He would remember: "Yes, 28 steps more and there was a steep surface. Let me not stagger and fall. Then there was a street to the right after about 20 steps more."

Just my two wooden coins.

Isn't that just a good memory Cenghiz? What's to say a burglar who spent his entire life in Allanak couldn't do the same thing in total darkness? What makes a ranger so much different?  I think it has more to do with a natural affinity that even some people have in real life to knowing where they are going, not some great memorization of all the streets where these rangers suddenly can go from point A to point B, while my burglar/assassin or whatever who grew up in the city can't go anywhere because he doesn't have this natural affinity?

-RM

[Cenghiz]

Burglar doesn't care enough to count his steps.. Ranger is raised as a 'ranger'.. He knows he'll die if he gets lost. That's of course my explanation to the ranger blindwalking. I always believed they counted their steps, memorised nearly every point everywhere they walked into. Or, it would be really unrealistic to be able to walk while other classes staggered in every step.
Of course, I learned this ability from GDB... Even after learning the ability, I still always light a torch except emergency quits.

[sjanimal logged out]

I don't feel too strongly about this issue to make a real argument, but I think that the Ranger's ability to find their way around easily results from a keen direction sense.  

To a certain extent, this would apply in cities as easily as it would in the countryside.  To another extent it will not.

I will say this however -- a ranger could use Tektolnes tower, for example, to navigate as easily as they could use the North Star, moss growth on trees or a tall moutain.

I freely admit that I am almost-direction blind in real life, and that my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.

Furthermore, if you want to roleplay your own ranger as becoming unhappy/disoriented inside inner cities, I certainly respect that.  I often roleplay my characters as being disoriented the first few weeks they are in a city they've never visited.

You raise a good question, though.

[Tamarin]

There are a number of theories that stipulate that certain people have an inherant "compas" (if you will) built into them.  Therefore, they have a much higher chance of finding their way when cardinal directions are needed.

Furthermore, I imagine rangers are able to navigate by starlight.  In a city such as new york, you can't see the stars that well because all the light from the city illuminates the sky, this shielding starlight.  A city like allanak doesn't have electricity, so there is no way that there would be enough light to cause this effect.  Let alone the fact that it isn't that big a city...I think I heard someone state that it was around 100k, which is a very small city.  Since it's isolated, there are no other light sources anywhere nearby.

All this is to say, rangers probably -would- be able to find their way around a city, provided they know it well.

[Cenghiz]

Starlight? I guess there was an announcement by the imms that there were no 'star's in Zalanthas.

[Tamarin]

What i meant was that they can use stars to guide them.  Ie using a north star.

[Delirium]

Regarding stars:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6022
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9727

They are there, they are just not going to be often or easily visible, especially not in a place like Allanak.

I have no strong opinion on ranger abilities to find their way in the city. Both sides present decent arguments.

I would like to see burglar and pickpocket classes given the ability to find their way about in the city, however.

[Edit to clarify links.]

[Lazloth]

What i meant was that they can use stars to guide them.  Ie using a north star.

There are no stars on Zalanthas.  It's a flat rock in the great void!

Sorry, my opinion stands that the twists and turns of the alleys, streets, etc., should be something that maybe .. local citizens .. can navigate, not some dirty foreigners who had spent the last eighteen years in the desert, arriving for the first time and "counting steps" when the populace is asleep.

[SRB]

What i meant was that they can use stars to guide them.  Ie using a north star.

There are no stars on Zalanthas.  It's a flat rock in the great void!

Sorry, my opinion stands that the twists and turns of the alleys, streets, etc., should be something that maybe .. local citizens .. can navigate, not some dirty foreigners who had spent the last eighteen years in the desert, arriving for the first time and "counting steps" when the populace is asleep.

Lazloth's arguments are valid. I agree.

[Tamarin]

Who says that rangers didn't grow up in the city?  Many of them did, I imagine, but also happened to spend enough time outside to gain an affinity for it.

Likewise, what's to say that every city dweller can find their ways around?  Seems to me that most people wouldn't be able to.  I know that when I am enveloped in pitch blackness, it's pretty damned hard for me to find my way around - it truly is like stumbling around blind.

In this sense, being a ranger doesn't let one acclimate to seeing and navigating through desert or outdoorsy shapes.  It would fall more in the ability to see and assess shapes in general during reduced visibility.

The other thing is - there's no city equivalent of ranger.

edited to add:

I would like to see burglar and pickpocket classes given the ability to find their way about in the city, however.

Yes.

[Agent_137]

burglar, maybe. I mean, he would operate a lot in the dark. Pickpocket? No, not at all. It' dmake more sense to give it to an assasain over a pick pocket.

Is this derailing?

Whoops. it's his fault.

[Marc]

Don't undercut ranger skills anymore!

They took a combat hit back in the '90s.  Wasn't that enough?!

-------------------------------

I don't agree with cutting this out at all.  A ranger can move in the dark because he knows how to use his sense of touch to keep from falling (feet recognizing surfaces and noticing rocks, wagonwheels etc) and from running into stuff (hands to watch for trees, trolls etc).  They can always go the direction they want to because of the innate sense of direction.  How would that change being in a city?

If anything it would be even easier because any sort of civilized area will have SOME ambient light.  The desert without a moon would be pitch black.

*pling pling pling pling pling*

*pling pling*

[wizturbo]

Just because vivadu's are water mages, doesn't mean they can't drowned.  Translation....well...there was no point to that at all.

But here -is- a point!

Wait....no....no point here....um....nevermind?