Treatise: On achieving excellence in Roleplaying Games

[sjanimal]

Armageddon is described as a "role-play intensive" (RPI) role-playing game.  Some of it's proponents would describe it as THE role-play intensive MUD.
And yet, I often find it most curious that even some of the most dedicated role-players and veteran players seem to lack a serious concept of or development in the all of the four main devices of the role-play gamer.  

Role-playing -- the ability to jump into, capture and portray a role.  I won't take enough space here to do this justice, and the interested party is invited to check out the appropriate literature.  (1)

Flowability -- the ability of a player to minimalize the interference from non-game distractions in her play.  The ability to take things like server crashes, inexperience in other players, the occasional cheezy plot or code glitch, and smooth everything over.  In essesnce, the contribution of the player to keeping things on track in the face of distractions.  More plainly, the ability to roll with the punches, and keep the game rolling.

Realism -- more than just remembering to rest when your character has been extremely wounded or to take breaks from those long foraging/hunting missions.  A realistic player will make an active contribution towards the realism of the gaming environment.

Sportsmanship A good sport will attempt to compete actively against those who seek competition.  They will go easier on those who do not.  They will try hard to get ahead without cheating, and will avoid similar pitfalls.  They will work to make other players feel included.  They will enjoy winning and loosing with equal gusto.  

Recommended Reading:  

(1) "Roleplaying Master" by Gary Gygax
very good book.

[jhunter]

Realism -- more than just remembering to rest when your character has been extremely wounded or to take breaks from those long foraging/hunting missions. A realistic player will make an active contribution towards the realism of the gaming environment.

Sportsmanship A good sport will attempt to compete actively against those who seek competition. They will go easier on those who do not. They will try hard to get ahead without cheating, and will avoid similar pitfalls. They will work to make other players feel included. They will enjoy winning and loosing with equal gusto.

These things are a matter of both point of view and personal opinion.

IMHO, a good sport will play without cheating.

Cheating is determined by the rules of the world that we are all playing in.

A good roleplayer will do so within the realistic confines of the world that they are playing within.

The boundaries of sportsmanship are determined by the boundaries of the roleplaying world/code.

Realism is not determined by the REAL WORLD, it is determined by the setting/code that we are using to roleplay with.

Zalanthas is quite a different world entirely since magick, psionics and many of the races and creatures do not exist in the real world.

This is all entirely my opinion of things.

This is mostly the part that I thought to be actually detrimental to "good roleplaying".

Sportsmanship A good sport will attempt to compete actively against those who seek competition. They will go easier on those who do not.

[Agent_137]

Acting, people. Acting.

That's all it is.


Except you get to ad lib everything. And the script finished yet.

[jhunter]

Realism is not determined by the REAL WORLD, it is determined by the setting/code that we are using to roleplay with.

Zalanthas is quite a different world entirely since magick, psionics and many of the races and creatures do not exist in the real world.

Acting, people. Acting.

That's all it is.


Except you get to ad lib everything.

DING DING DING! We have a winner folks!

*applauds*

[My 2 sids]

One of the mistakes I think some forget is that people do play this game to win.  Some of what Sjanimal is asking for seems more in tune with putting on a theatrical production than playing a game.  The role-playing difference being that in drama the role-playing is done in a way the emphasizes the overall outcome; the idea that we should play for the greater good.  However, in a game people tend to play for themselves.  Extremely few people would want to realistically play a typical servant or something because they value their character's ability to win over the realism.   This sort of, "everyone for themselves" attitude extends to conduct such as sportsmanship and flexibility.  Some players want to win and the cost of being a nice player would somehow sacrifice their character's winning too much.

:?: I wonder what would happen if a clan/tribe/etc.  Ever tried to recruit by looking at players rather than roles for characters.  I think like-minded players would produce a very different game than many characters ran by players with different theological views.

[Miee]

I play the game to win.

When I'm winning, I have a PC that I'm into, who's thoughts and feelings I can express and realize, who has a life that may not be exciting but feels like an actual life, whom I like, and even if I'm playing for an hour and nothing at all happens it's still like an episode of good T.V. or a good book in a series.  Having all that or close to it, feels like a win.  Not having that feels like when some little kid comes over and proceeds to school you at Virtua Fighter II which is YOUR GODDAMN GAME.

[sjanimal]

Miee,

Dude, I'm right there with you 100%.  I think we must be kindred spirits.

[Ktavialt]

I play the game to win.

When I'm winning, I have a PC that I'm into, who's thoughts and feelings I can express and realize, who has a life that may not be exciting but feels like an actual life, whom I like, and even if I'm playing for an hour and nothing at all happens it's still like an episode of good T.V. or a good book in a series.  Having all that or close to it, feels like a win.  Not having that feels like when some little kid comes over and proceeds to school you at Virtua Fighter II which is YOUR GODDAMN GAME.

I like that. Though obviously, different players have different sorts of views
on this. I'd think that it would serve the new players good if Armageddon
would make an official post on what you may experience doing different
sorts of roles. Of course, they do that already in staff application requests,
but a comprehensive list of these sorts of things would be nice.

- Ktavialt

[Dresan]

Playing to win is what i do.  To me this game is no different then hockey or a boxing match.  In these sports you want to achieve somethings and you have to follow the rules set out before you while attempting to do it.  Same thing with Arm.  You got a goal or a storyline you want to achieve...well so do I

What i mean story and goals:
ex. an elf wanting to be the next Highlord of Tuluk...where you want him to achieve this following certain steps.  No scripts and nothing is written in stone...at the end with all the twist and turns your story took he might have ended up highlord of 'nak.


...However the real fun lies when my storyline conflicts with another.

ex.I need my character to kill yours in order to do X, you need my character to die in order to do Y...who's storyline gets to continue...that depends on who has aquired the most power (whether it be coded or not) or who knows how to best manipulate whatever resourses your character might have and a ton of other factors.

This does not mean you twink at things, use OOC info, or spam code because then you would not be following the rules.  However being "cheap" and coming up with new tactics to defeat those that stand in your way are fine with me so long as they follow the original rules laid out (even those are always subject to interpretation)

It is really cool when the story and the goals you want for your character are being accomplished and it is suprising when your character accomplishes something in a completely different way then you originally expected.

If having something scripted out for you and seeing it through is your thing, all the more power to you.  However, for those that think they can script something and expect me to follow it and act it out, like those people that emote while hiding expecting me to stay put...if whatever they are doing conflicts with what i want for my character then the only thing they can expect is to see a mantis head. :twisted:

[House Rising Sun]

We should take Armageddon lessons from Gary fuckin' Gygax? There's something inherently wrong with that idea.

[Synthesis]

I always feel like a winner when I can instakill the templar on the Road of Slaves with my ultimate backstab of doom.

The green-eyed, black-haired templar makes a strange sound and is suddenly silent as you plant a sharp, well-balanced bone halfsword in her back.

What more could you possibly want?  And all this "acting" business? Puh-leeeeeeeease.  When I unleash my Uber Assassins of Doom Squad upon Zalanthas, the only acting you'll be doing is acting afraid.  Very afraid.  Muahahahahahahaha....ha....ha...oh, I kill me, er...you.

[Avril]

I'll remind everyone that if you play a character simply to gain power, whether it implies fulfilling some grandiose IC goal or maxxing your skill, you are being a powergamer. Don't. Becoming an escape artist when someone ties you up non-codedly, messing around with a noble because you know he can't subdue or kill you himself (for that matter using any other kind of OOC information for unreasonable actions/reactions), miraculously having your rough character use every trick of etiquette when dealing with a noble, or running out of the tavern before the templar has a chance to incriminate you (even though there are four or so NPCs patrolling around), is just as bad as spam-crafting, if not worse (there was a case when an elf got subdued by mistake - he could've been killed, too, thanks to the idiot who ran away). Even if the code lets you get away with it, there's more to the gameworld than code.

I've seen my latest character wax and wane from one role to another in only a few real-life months, and I can say that if I followed my "dreams", my character would've ended up in a far better position than he is in right now, while I would've ended up with a far less comprehensive understanding of humanity.

As for the purposes of role-playing... I never thought of fun or petty ambitions to rank highly among them. What I enjoy most is the chance to study human nature, observe how a police-state environment really works and draw paralels to real life - I'd say I would also enjoy interacting with the gameworld and observing the results, but as it is now, the greatest thing that happened because of a player's actions was the introduction of a big steel dragon statue to the gates that basically warns everyone against trying to bring about dramatic changes (or, at least, hoping that these changes will actually be put in place).

Maybe I want to test out some real person's apparent character and scry out his hidden side, by seeing the reactions of different people to this character when it's combined with certain traits. Maybe I want to play myself, with my own thoughts and ideals translated to Zalanthan terms, and make an effort to develop my own character through this. As long as I have a serious OOC purpose for playing, I find the whole experience significantly more enjoyable for both myself and others.

[Ayashah]

I'll remind everyone that if you play a character simply to gain power, whether it implies fulfilling some grandiose IC goal or maxxing your skill, you are being a powergamer. Don't.

I disagree with this statement. If its someone's bg to gain power, then there is NOTHING wrong with them doing what they need to do to gain that power. That is their driving force. This doesnt make them a powergamer.

If someone's bg/drive (ie - dwarf) is to become the best fighter in the world and they keep IC doing it, that is not powergaming. I actually would LIKE to see someone do that. Give challenges that should be answered in the arena. I would love seeing the arena active again. I was trying to work towards that awhile back but regrettably, I no longer have that pc.

Everyone enjoys a different type of role. Emotes dont make rp'ng but they sure DO add color and pleasure to the play of others and let the imms know what you are doing. Thinks arent required but they sure help one keep IC and let the imms know what you are doing. Every pc is different and every pc will be run different because the players and/or the bg is different behind them.

[Avril]

Understand that there's a difference between pooling all your OOC resources - your cleverness, your charm and anything else you might have - into "winning" the game, and playing a character who wants to gain power. That kind of character might be naive enough to be conned, arrogant enough to do a villain's exposee, emotionally unstable enough to send you a feeling of hatred when waying you to say he loves you, or drunk enough to blurt out all his secrets. He might even be intelligent enough to get out of his obsession for power, but if the player doesn't let him for OOC reasons, even when IC forces would encourage it... That's powergaming. Characters who stretch the code to the limits of credibility and never fail unless the coded forces them to - those aren't characters, unfortunately. They're just rag-dolls.

Someone who keeps sparring all day, breaks down only when he's down to his last drop of sweat and hates having to lie down afterwards would be overjoyed to hear of some miracle concoction that can bring him back to his feet, and keep him sparring both day and night. He would pay for that concoction whether it had coded benefits or not, because he was a bloody sparring fanatic, and he would try anything to make his sparring rounds go longer. However, since there's a coded benefit in having 'sid and no coded benefit whatsoever in eating some cheap herbal mix, the powergamer running that character will refuse it.

Again, I don't mind characters who are out for power, though I do mind players who make every effort to ensure their characters get into the best possible situations, even when it's not IC.

[marko]

The definition of powergaming as I saw it years ago and it has stuck with me.

Ignoring the situation to use the code.

It's that simple.  

For example, in the past, we used to have casters who would literally cast in the middle of a conversation without pausing.  A conversation with a caster would go something like,

The cute, fiery-eyed woman says, in sirihish:
"Any plans for the day?"

Fire and sparks and other scary things erupt around the cute, fiery-eyed woman.

The studly, buff man says, in sirihish:
"I was hoping to spend it with you."

The cute, fiery-eyed woman mutters an incantation.
Fire engulfs the cute, fiery-eyed woman, burning her and doing crazy damage.

The cute, fiery-eyed woman says, in sirihish:
"Alright, want to buy me a drink?"

The studly, buff man says, in sirihish:
"Sure thing!"

---

I'm not kidding.  This and close variations thereof used to happen all the time.  This sort of thing is powergaming.

Powergaming is sparring for days upon days on end without break.  Powergaming is stealing from the same target over and over and over again even though they have already "caught" you once.

Powergaming is, once again, using the code while ignoring the in-game situation.

[Dre(bored@school)san]

Twinking and spamming are against the rules.  From my humble experience...true ingame power is usually not coded and rarely involves one chars inividual code.  Having said that if the templar emotes you being surounded by four half-giant guards, it is wrong to walk out of the tavern like nothing but not to emote running through the legs of one and running out.  

        To clarify how i play: i want my character to finish with a certain story, i give him the mentality and give him an appropriate guild to make Rping it easy (or even tougher). Say an elf ending up to be the next Tek...

Icly he start by striving to be the best merchant, ocoly i have an idea of what he might need inorder to achive this so i give him Burgular Giuld..so what he learns fits with the story and might help him along the way.  Then would come various steps for him even to get the mentality of wanting power.

Here comes the challenge....
-First for him to realize he need or wants power, something needs to happen or a number of things need to happen...preferably bad things need to happen...I might want however ...A temlpar tortureing him for day on end without him having the ability to do anything about it...**suprise**What might happen however is he sees his friend be killed by raider and him not be able to help him/her

-then he needs to figure out what the best mode of power is...maybe he will train with his blade for a while or work on poisons...however what you need him to realize is that magik is what he need..etc..etc...

Add a whole lot many steps here...

As you can see striving for the best possible outcome for your story does not necessarily mean the best possible outcome for your character and rarely does it come in the form that you expect.  The IC weaknesses you give him might be the OOC strengths you use to move the storyline forward.

However this does mean I might not be seeking for my character to go through other types of RP situation and will have set him up to avoid that...
eg.  You come at him expecting him to fight to the death with you in a amazingly Rped battle...depending the characters mentality and what i want for him i might just Rp and emote him trembling in fear then turning tail and running away or have you attack him and chopping off his hand in order to fuel his desire for power before managing to escape.

When in comes to conflict storylines in does usually comes down to who controls the most code esspecially at the lower levels, whether it be your own characters, overall influence or through your loyal friends that you've made. Either way it is usually an intense and extremely enjoyable time for me at least.

ex If i wanted to Rp my ranger raging and defeating the uber warroir that killed his friends, and the warriors player wanted to Rp defeating all his enemies and being victorous in that battle.... well the code (being used appropriately else your cheating) states the warrior is most likely to win.Maybe

...again you'll be suprised how many times the story you attempt to tell take unexpected twists and turns.  Some poeple don't play this way they play characters they don't mind losing to scrabs or have no real set goals, just wander around looking for Rps or looking to get involved with other people's storyline or a ton of other ways. Good for them, if that is what they want, go for it, have fun.  If all the game rules are followed and it is ICly justified, doesn't really matter if there are, if any, OOC reasons behind it, since there should always at least be one, having fun. At least in this newbie's humble opinion [/b]

[Scarborough]

My opinion is that the most important thing to remember when roleplaying is that the point is to have fun.  It's a game.  Excellent roleplaying is, by looking back at two pages of posts, many different things to many different people.  Therefore, good roleplaying is whatever actions help make the game the most fun, immersive, environment for each individual -- whether thats tons of emoting, planning plots, going with the flow, playing to "win", getting special characters, etc.   Excellent roleplaying is having fun, and without trying so hard, inspiring others.

I roleplay for my enjoyment..not my ooc mud friends' viewing pleasure, not for my clan mates, not for some immortal watching me trying to decide if I deserve 'karma' (because I could personally care less about karma), and sure as hell not for some complete stranger who thinks it's ok to tell someone oocly how to roleplay mid-game.  If someone is enjoying themselves and feeling immersed in their character and inspiring others in any way, they are achieving excellent roleplaying.  It's that simple.  Case in point - think and dream.  It's been heavily suggested to me by several people that I use 'think' if I want to be a good roleplayer.  These commands are awkward, and are not enjoyable, so I don't do them.  Does that make me a bad roleplayer?  No.  I am a good roleplayer.  "But if you were a good roleplayer your character would be thinking something.  It's realistic."  Yeah, ok..but it's a game, and thinking isn't fun.  So I don't do it.   If you love to "think" then it works for you and is a part of your excellent roleplaying and you're inspiring whatever imm might be watching you.  Same for constant emoting.  Excessiveness does not necessarily a good roleplayer make...unless you really enjoy doing it.   If  -I'm- playing for me, for fun, and the goal isn't to do a fancy song and dance to impress others, I don't emote every say/tell/talk/whisper/walk/sing/etc.   If you aren't impressed by another person's style of roleplaying, leave 'em be unless they ask for help.  Or encourage a player to be more interactive or evolve their techniques by modeling for them and interacting WITH them, not just complaining about them or to them.  

My comments aren't based on the posts I've seen in this thread...all nice posts, many of which I agree with, some of which I don't.  My comments are based on what I've observed in this game personally, other muds, and what other Arm players have told me of their experiences.  There are at times far too many superiority complexes in this game.   In summary:  Arm is a good enviroment for escapism, roleplaying and fun.  Excellence in roleplaying isn't what others tell a player excellence should be.  Good roleplaying is whatever makes the game most enjoyable and immersing for each individual, and if you inspire others with your roleplaying then you've really done something special and achieved excellence.  I can't even put my finger on what I find inspiring in people's roleplaying at times, and don't even want to overanalyze it...they just inspire me on that day without trying -- they're just having their own fun.  Kudos to you.  

My inspirations in Arm, for various reasons --

Inspiring Commoner: Aymaral

Inspiring Noble: Lady Sienna Tor, also Lord Seldarius (king of huge emotes but used sparingly for great effects)

Inspiring Bard:  Kysaan -- knows his music stuff irl!!  *laments for personal reasons*

[Scarborough]

How did that happen?  Can a forum administrator delete one of those doubled posts?  Thanks.

[Solas]

:?: I wonder what would happen if a clan/tribe/etc.  Ever tried to recruit by looking at players rather than roles for characters.  I think like-minded players would produce a very different game than many characters ran by players with different theological views.

I'll agree with that... :wink: ...but it would have to involve IG as well as OOC communication to get everything set up. On the other hand, it has potential to be one heck of a good clan/group if you find that everyone has the same priorities and interests.

[Bogre]

It's like driving while acting.

You always want to use max courtesy.

(Road rage is bad!)