Zalanthas vs. Athas - then a rant

[Ktavialt]

I sat around for awhile trying to think of Zalanthas (Armageddon) vs.
Athas (Dark Sun), or more specifically, comparing the environment of
Athas, and the way that I ran my campaigns as a Dark Sun DM back in
the days (10+ years ago) with Armageddon. Now it's been awhile since
I've played, obviously, so I might miss some of the specifics, but here's
my list of the cool things Dark Sun has that Armageddon doesn't have,
and vice versa. Naturally a table-top RPG is going to be played differently
than an RP MUD but comparing them as best I can.

Armageddon's Features that, IMHO, should have been in Dark Sun:
Outlawed/Feared Magick - On Athas, they could get powerful, but they
were basically just another class.
Politics - Zalanthan-style house/political set-up was completely absent
from my Dark Sun campaigns.
Contact/Psi - Although I always try to imagine how the game would be
without this form of communication, I always liked it, and could see it
as a cool thing in Dark Sun.
Gathering System - Compared to Dark Sun, which uses the old school
research a spell, cast it, research it again, no mana - only limits on how
many memorized spells you can know. Also, on Dark Sun, ash spread
at the moment of casting a spell, unless you were a preserver that took
part of a series of life-giving blood rites/rituals.
No Alignments - Yaaaaaay. I love not having to pick "Well my character
is lawful good, no he's neutral evil." There isn't a separate class for what
the real armageddon alignment is, "Good? Neutral? Evil? Depends on
whose shit on me lately and how hungry I am."
Spice - Zalanthan drug addicts. lol, I love you guys.
Skill/Spell Branching/No Level System - I like this part of Zalanthas too
vs. old school AD&D/Darksun way to get skills/spells.

Dark Sun Features that, IMHO, would be nice in Armageddon:
More Space Between Cities - This is a fairly big thing, but once you
create a world, expanding it has gotta be very difficult. Then again,
making the world bigger without a larger playerbase is something that
I'm not sure I'm for.
Lack of Crim Code - Yeah, the lack of versatility of Armageddon's
criminal code makes up a large part of this side of the coin. Too brutally
efficient - once you're a criminal -every- soldier knows it and can spot
you anytime your near them.
Wild Talents - Psionics for the average joe. Occasionally a person will
come to possess one or two additional psionic powers.
Psionic Creatures - Last I remember, braxats were deadly not only
because they were a giant rock creature, they had psionic powers like
'domination'. Tembos I also remember were incredibly deadly with
psionics. In fact, I often even overlooked a creatures' psionic abilities
cause used correctly they could honestly kill all my players with ease.
Even the weakest creatures had -some- form of psionics, else they
wouldn't get away/capture prey/etc. Sorta think this thing would be neato
in Zalanthas. Yeah, it's harsh, but I like it. Just thinking of that makes me
giggle. Now I've never played a mindbender and I don't know what any
psionic powers are, but don't tell me that this scenario wouldn't be cool
in a "Man, you're really asking for it by suggesting it to the staff" sort of
way:
You're riding your kank up the north road with two of your buddies,
ready to do some trading in Luir's,  when all of a sudden one of your
friends mindlessly turns his kank to the west and drives it off the edge
of the Shield Wall. As you go to the edge in disbelief, a weak-ass
any-two-day-warrior-can-kill-me desert tarantula comes out of hiding
and scurries down the shield wall. By the time you find a way to get
down the wall without dying yourself, you come across your friends'
corpse, the blood sucked out of it and bite marks at the neck. The
tarantula is nowhere to be seen as its hidden away, digesting your
friend's blood and chillin' like a villain 'til its hungry again.

Moral of the Story: Bow down to 'lil' mini', the desert tarantula whose
wallet says badass motherf*cker on it.

Brings me to another point Wouldn't it be cool if animals, once they
killed a PC, actually ate at least a part of the corpse?

When I made up this mental list I was happy to see that, as a whole, I
liked Armageddon better than Dark Sun. Looking at the things that I
said 'would be nice' in Armageddon, the making the space between the
cities larger part is a huge job and on the immortal wish list thing I
posted awhile ago a different immortal wanted it too, the crim code I
don't see any indicators that it's going to be changed though I understand
changing it may allow loopholes for twinks, the wild talents thing I coulda
sworn was brought up before by the staff and looked at, and the psionic
creatures thing I've never seen mentioned, but oh... makes me smile
every time I think about it. Guess the psionic creatures part also includes
a 'better AI' for creatures, but oh well.

Any thoughts?

[Larrath]

Wild talents are problematic and probably impossible to truly make.

You can make a magicker or a psionicist who has such a 'wild talent', or you can special app for a commoner with limited powers of some sort, but it's not good to have a 'wild talent' stat roll.  I don't think giving newer players any psionic powers is a good idea.  I'm sure that if something happens in game that would give your character suitable abilities, talking to the staff would get you fixed up right away.


Comparing space between cities and crime codes are not really fair, though.  If Armageddon was not a hard-coded game like Dark Sun, you would not have these issues.  Both these are coding issues and don't really have anything to do with either game.  It's possible to have the same thing for any other setting, and even if Armageddon was identical to Athas, these issues would remain.

Psionic creatures?  Well, a gaj is said to have an attack that is at least partially psychic.  I'm sure there's at least one or two types of creatures that can do these things...but putting psionics on an automated mode is pretty silly, I'd say, and I don't know if I would like to be that guy who suddenly saw "You lose control of your mind" and then die.


Animals should do that, but this is really not the point of this post, is it?


In conclusion: Armageddon is good, Dark Sun is...meh.

[RunningMountain]

I agree with a lot of the stuff you posted, I used to play Darksun a lot and that's why the mud first appealed to me, but you come to realize that Zalanthas has become it's own setting, even though the strong darksun influence will always be there (races, magick system, the monsters, etc.)  There's lots of things I'd like to see in the mud that comes from Darksun, but I don't know - would that hurt it or help it?
-RM

[Marauder Moe]

I think it would be fun if people started being born with random psionic abilities.  Imagine the chaos!  But of course, balance/coding would probably make it more trouble than it would be worth.

As for creatures eating PC corpses, I've seen it happen before.

[Sanvean]

We talked at one point about implementing something along the line of wild talents, but there was some fear that people might kill off characters rapidly, trying to get a "cool" one, as well as worries about keeping things balanced.  Beyond that, there's a possibility that people evidencing a wild talent might get labeled mindbenders and killed out of hand.  

Expanding the distance between cities is something people have proposed a number of times, and it's something that would need to be done carefully, since things are now (for the most part) coherently mapped.  We've talked about making the distance more difficult to travel as an alternative.

I agree that the crim code needs to be revamped.

[jhunter]

Beyond that, there's a possibility that people evidencing a wild talent might get labeled mindbenders and killed out of hand.

That would be the fun part I think. If you were one who found you had a bit of "special" ability with the way...what do you do?

Use it openly? (And risk being labeled a mindbender and killed)

Use it, but attempt to hide it? (And hope noone who would freak out ever finds out about it.)

Never use it? (Out of the fear of being caught and killed somehow.)

Maybe it's something that is only triggered in stressful situations, or maybe you could have it be dormant and come up with a situation that will trigger it and bring it about.

I see the possibility of some interesting rp that could come from something like this.

[Jacques]

Beyond that, there's a possibility that people evidencing a wild talent might get labeled mindbenders and killed out of hand.

And this would be bad... why? Someone comes in and gets caught using a psionic ability that none of the rest of us poor slobs have, they SHOULD get killed out of hand, or at least beaten up and dragged off for 'questioning' by the authorities! Most players who have had more than a couple characters (which is pretty much anyone who's played more than a couple weeks) would know that 'SuperUberMindSmash' isn't one of the standard psionic skills, and would hopefully know NOT to let people know they can do it. It would certainly make REAL psionicists an even scarier thing, if people from time to time thought they found one. Witch hunts, and all that.  :twisted:

Alternately, instead of it being RANDOM, perhaps at the 1 or 2 karma level someone could play a standard class, only with 1-2 random weak extra psi abilities. Make it a new class, but one that consists of only copying the existing one and adding a single feature. So I could be a "Ranger with Psi Enhancement". Standard ranger, but with a bit of extra mental "UMPH" to it.

[Lazloth]

And this would be bad... why?

She's talking about suiciding the chars until you get a comparatively "cool" skill, rocket scientist.

[Miee]

Since everyone's addressed everything else, I'm going to throw my support behind predators eating corpses.  This is something that could possibly work off of the skin skill and leave behind "a partially chewed corpse"  "Many teeth marks of varying size and shape mark this flesh and bloody claw/paw marks litter the surrounding area.  etc, etc.)

Actually, let me work this up some more and throw into the CD forum to see how it floats.  The more I kick it about, the more I like it.

[Miee]

And this would be bad... why?

She's talking about suiciding the chars until you get a comparatively "cool" skill, rocket scientist.

No, she was talking about both.  Some people will suicide til they get something cool and some would be killed out of hand for MINDBENDER!

[Akaramu]

We talked at one point about implementing something along the line of wild talents, but there was some fear that people might kill off characters rapidly, trying to get a "cool" one

Easy fix to this! Make wild talents appear after 10+ days played. So no one will know if a new character has the potential for such a thing. And it might add a lot of spice to a common servant or cook who's life appeared to be following a boring schedule until someday that odd talent pops up.

[Larrath]

Honestly?  I don't think I want to see this change.  Either way, it should probably be discussed in the Code forum.

[wizturbo]

We talked at one point about implementing something along the line of wild talents, but there was some fear that people might kill off characters rapidly, trying to get a "cool" one, as well as worries about keeping things balanced.  Beyond that, there's a possibility that people evidencing a wild talent might get labeled mindbenders and killed out of hand.  

I believe adding these wild talents should NOT come at character creation.  But be branched at a random time (somewhere in the 10-20 days played region) and perhaps simply chosen from a large list of possibilities by an immortal thats familiar with that character, and believes it would make sense for them to develop such talents.  They don't necessarily need to be magick or psionic, maybe just an unusual skill for that class, or a large bump in the cap of a certain skill.

But I definitely think it'd add some diversity to the game for people to not be such cookie cutter "warriors", "burglars", "assassions"  etc.

[Marauder Moe]

Hehe, I would love to see immortals going around and messing with people by adding skills (magick, psionic, or otherwise).

[wizturbo]

It could definitely add some spice to characters.  But most importantly, it makes things less cookie cutter!  I HATE it, that people ask new players, "Oh can you speak Cavilish?"  You answer yes, and they know every talent your character possesses.  They see a new fighter who can parry, well, they know everything THAT guy can do too.  Its soooooooo lame, and soooooo unrealistic but everyone seems to play off this OOC information.  Adding something like this would be awesome.  That random stonecarving merchant who happens to also be able to knock you unconscious with a psionic trick, might not be so harmless after all...

Yes, some of these wild talents WOULD be illegal, and could result in being gemmed/lynched/burned etc....but they dont' have to be used right?  People can suppress their abilities, so if its not your cup of tea to fry people's minds with your psionic trick...well...just stick with stonecarving then :-)

And just as a side note, as I said before, not -all- these need to be magick or psionic in nature.  A warrior that happens to develop keen hearing.  Or a ranger that happens to understand how lockpicking works.  

Just anything to break the cookie cutter molds.

[Agent_137]

I'd never heard of wide talents before, and I love the idea.

If there was a way it could be introduced without causing OOC problems, I'm for it.

Personally, I'm going to start special apping for a wild talent when my current char dies.

It would be cool to have a list of wild talents created, then every now and then a program will run that takes all the chars currently in the world over a certain playing time, and gives a random one of them a random wild talent.

That'd be spiff. exceedingly spiff.

[Ktavialt]

We talked at one point about implementing something along the line of wild talents, but there was some fear that people might kill off characters rapidly, trying to get a "cool" one

Easy fix to this! Make wild talents appear after 10+ days played. So no one will know if a new character has the potential for such a thing. And it might add a lot of spice to a common servant or cook who's life appeared to be following a boring schedule until someday that odd talent pops up.

Wow, that is an easy fix to keep people from killing off characters. Nice
slant on the supposed drawback of implementing that.

- Ktavialt

[Callisto]

Easy fix to this! Make wild talents appear after 10+ days played. So no one will know if a new character has the potential for such a thing. And it might add a lot of spice to a common servant or cook who's life appeared to be following a boring schedule until someday that odd talent pops up.

That is an awesome idea... it doesn't just solve the problem of people suiciding character after character, but it really does have the potential to shake things up, since by ten days playing time most people have a routine. I hate routines.

You win the thread.

[bubblebath boy '77]

addressing the original post and getting away from "wild talents"

Contact does exist in Dark Sun, but I'm not so sure about Psi, and the political aspects between nobles houses did exist, in a different way.  Land ownership and such was a bigger deal for the nobles, so the dynamic was different, but certainly present.  And merchant house politics isn't changed much at all in the transition.  The thing to remember is, Athas had at least 7 city-states, and we only have two.  So there were a lot of nuances that could be flushed out in the seven cities, and on Zalanthas, most of them seem to have been condensed and conglomorated.

I think the magick system on Zalanthas is infinitely better.  And the size difference of the worlds probably accounts for psionics being so limited here comparitively.  With seven citystates on a map dozens of times the size of ours, everything could evolve to higher levels.

I like the fact that there aren't mul Templars on Zalanthas  :wink:

If I would name one thing that Athas has that I think Zalanthas should, it's the Belgoi.

[RunningMountain]

Belgoi were very cool.

[Anonymous]

Wild talents are problematic and probably impossible to truly make.

How come?  I know of another mud that has something similar implemented.  The only problem I can think of is people killing PCs over and over to get a 'wild talent', but things like that can be picked up on.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really like the idea much, but I don't see how it is 'probably impossible to truly make.'

[Xamminy]

The only problem I can think of is people killing PCs over and over to get a 'wild talent', but things like that can be picked up on.

Yes, they could be picked up on...but do we, the staff want to deal with people doing this...or getting upset that that other character's wild talent is so much cooler than their wild talent?

[Tamarin]

We talked at one point about implementing something along the line of wild talents, but there was some fear that people might kill off characters rapidly, trying to get a "cool" one, as well as worries about keeping things balanced.

What about making the talent non-accessible and invisible to the skill tree until some random point way down a character's life (on the order of 30-40 days play time), and even then not every character would get one.  It would be totally random, or based on a character's actions over that time should the staff deem the accumulated stimulus enough to grant a special ability.

[mansa]

People -have- been given wild talents, in the game already.  Usually when something dramatic happens to their character, like they nearly overdose on spice, or almost get eaten, or have a leg chopped off, or fall on their neck, or get bitten by a sand vampire..

[JollyGreenGiant]

Unfair.  I had a character fall on his neck once, and instead of a wild talent, all I got was unconscious.

:mrgreen:

[Delirium]

Belgoi were very cool.

What are they?

[jhunter]

Yeah, I never played in Athas...I want to know what Belgoi are too...

[RunningMountain]

Belgoi
Belgoi are a race of savage humanoids that live in the most desolate of
places, since no other race will tolerate them nearby.  When seen from
a distance, a belgoi appears human, but their blue skin, clawed hands,
and webbed, three-toed feet soon give them away.  They have no teeth,
no visible ears, and their hair is always black and stringy.  Belgoi
seem to revel in destruction, and are considered to be second only to the
defilers in the damage they can do to the world around them.

Belgoi Society
 Belgoi form large nomadic tribes that move into an area, strip it of
all resources, and then move on.  These tribes send out raiding parties
that attack caravans and small villages, hoping to obtain food and loot.
They will eat anything but prefer the taste of the flesh of intelligent
races.  Belgoi speak their own language, and the common tongue.

[Delirium]

Gee. Sounds a lot like Gith.

[RunningMountain]

The kank system was cool too, this is taken from the darksun3 manual which I was using for my mud.

Kank Domestic
Many kanks roam wild across the the Tablelands, as well are herded.
These large, docile insects have black chitinous exoskeletons, and are
divided into three sections, head, thorax, and abdomen.
There are three known kank types in Athas, Brood Queen, Worker, and
Soldier.  Brood queens can weigh as much as five hundred stones, are
five arms tall and around nine arms in length.  Workers can weigh as
much as two hundred to three hundred stones, are three arms tall, and
hundred stones, are around four arms in height, and eight arms in
length.
 They can carry objects with their multi-jointed pincers, or use them
in combat.
 Soldier kanks are often used as caravan mounts, as they can travel
for a full day at top speed, while carrying a tremendous amount of
weight for their size.  They are also used as herd animals by elves
and others, since they can thrive in any type of environment.  Plus
they need little attention, as instinct drives them into organization.

Related help files:
Kank_Ecology, Kank_Society


Kank_Ecology
Workers are the only ones that produce kank honey.  Kank honey is a
very sweet and fetches a high price.  It can sustain the food (but not
water) requirements for a medium-sized creature for days.
Kank exoskeleton can be used as armor, but it is very brittle and has
to be treated properly to toughen it up some.  Exoskeletons are
sometimes used for construction of chitin structures.

400/400hp 100m 100mvhelp kank_society
Kank_Society
Kank organize themselves into hives.  Worker kank secrete large
globules of green honey, which is used to feed the young of the hive.  
 Brood queens lay the eggs, usually twenty to fifty at a time.  The
soldiers then fiercely defend the area until the eggs hatch.
 Kank choose an area for egg laying which is near an abundant amounts
 of vegetation for food.

 A brood queen will avoid combat at all costs, unless all her
soldiers and food producers are dead, and/or she is backed into a
corner.
 A worker only goes into combat when all the soldiers are dead and/or
 they are backed into a corner.  
 A soldier is the first line of defense for the hive.  It is a well
known fact in Athas that soldier bites are poisonous.

[RunningMountain]

Yeah the gith weren't nearly as popular in Athas campaigns as they are here, actually they were rarely used.

[Dre(@school)san]

I doubt people would kill off their characters to get a good random skill, just because if people thought this way, we would have people killing themselves to get uber stats (Come on we've all dream at least once of having warriors or rangers with all AI stats, don't lie  :twisted: ).  Takes about a day to come up with a character concept with long term goals that i am happy to play with, even my crappiest concept took me an hour or two to come up with.


          I like the idea of random skill, after a few <+random amount of> days, based on karma to prevent abuse.

ex.  no karma, 15 day, warrior/hunter logs on and finds out he branched calvish or maybe haggle, or possibly boost in skinning cap.

lvl2 karma, 24 day assassin/hunter logs on and finds out he branched out sword skill and later on finds out he is better at two handed (at the ranger level, maybe slightly higher or lower)

lvl 5 karma 40 day, ranger/crafter logs on and finds out he has SAP or (moderately capped level) fireball

Anyways you get the point.  This would make every character we play unique in their own way.  It would be cool to make a warrior character, who becomes Tuluki milita Sergent that hates magikers, only to find out later that he has some magik abilities of his own.

[Lazloth]

lvl 5 karma 40 day, ranger/crafter logs on and finds out he has SAP or (moderately capped level) fireball

Cute.

[Larrath]

How, exactly, does this make sense?

A ranger/crafter is someone who walks around in the desert, hunting and gathering and then crafting and selling.

Now, as I understand it, there are two ways to learn a given spell (this is all assumption based on help_guild_sorcerer and the magicker helpfiles); either you are born with an affinity, like a regular magicker, or you learn it through Means X, gather your energy from a given source, and then cast the spell...in other words, sorcerers.

I doubt a Zalanthan goth who started playing around with true magick would suddenly wake up with the required process to create a fireball, let alone someone who has no affinity or knowledge of magick.  Same with sap...why would a hunter/gatherer learn how to sneak up on people and knock them out?

Especially after 40 days, which translate to an IC year in the worst cases, why would people suddenly learn something they had nothing to do with previously?


Sure, it would be cool to be a Tuluki magicker-hunter guy who is a magicker himself...but isn't it better to just special app as one?

Maybe a wild talent could be hidden on the skill list, and only show after a few tries...but, really...do we need this?  Warriors who can backstab and pickpockets that can make instruments and merchants who know how to find water in the desert?

All in all, I'm still not in favor of this idea.  Not unless it ends up being a minor addition to a character, instead of a sooperpower.

[Miee]

The only problem I can think of is people killing PCs over and over to get a 'wild talent', but things like that can be picked up on.

Yes, they could be picked up on...but do we, the staff want to deal with people doing this...or getting upset that that other character's wild talent is so much cooler than their wild talent?

Just where I stand on the latter point there:

Given the realistic view that sometimes people talk about their PCs, present, past, and planned:

If say my Amos got <sense kankfleas> as a wild talent and I found out someone else's Amos got <fireball-throwing butt cheeks>, I would go "Aw Man!"  If my luck on wild talents never improved and I always got things like <ale empathy>, I would probably get annoyed.  Would I throw a hissy fit?

No.  I might make cracks about needing to service a few Imms so I can throw lightning from my breasts, but if my sniveling sycophant to Lord Pigtails-and-Ribbons Borsail suddenly develops the ability to telekinetically lift up templar robes, that's along the same lines as "OK, BobRintherGroup has declared kanly against House Borsail because Lady Hooty McBoobs Borsail didn't finish off their boss."  It's a plot element.  It's the same as being in the right game place at the right game time and lucking out.

And Imm service, of course.

[jhunter]

Xamminy wrote:
CRW wrote:
The only problem I can think of is people killing PCs over and over to get a 'wild talent', but things like that can be picked up on.
Yes, they could be picked up on...but do we, the staff want to deal with people doing this...or getting upset that that other character's wild talent is so much cooler than their wild talent?


Just where I stand on the latter point there:

Given the realistic view that sometimes people talk about their PCs, present, past, and planned:

If say my Amos got <sense kankfleas> as a wild talent and I found out someone else's Amos got <fireball-throwing butt cheeks>, I would go "Aw Man!" If my luck on wild talents never improved and I always got things like <ale empathy>, I would probably get annoyed. Would I throw a hissy fit?

No. I might make cracks about needing to service a few Imms so I can throw lightning from my breasts, but if my sniveling sycophant to Lord Pigtails-and-Ribbons Borsail suddenly develops the ability to telekinetically lift up templar robes, that's along the same lines as "OK, BobRintherGroup has declared kanly against House Borsail because Lady Hooty McBoobs Borsail didn't finish off their boss." It's a plot element. It's the same as being in the right game place at the right game time and lucking out.

Yeah, it'd be the same as someone whining about someone else's pc getting better stats. I doubt such whining would be given any time, I know I wouldn't.

[Miee]

Yeah, it'd be the same as someone whining about someone else's pc getting better stats. I doubt such whining would be given any time, I know I wouldn't.

Hey!  That was my post ya jerk!

Anyway, I did have a whole stat analogy that I dropped.  You're right though, it really is just like saying, "WAH  mansa got an EG agility and I only got an average.  WAH."  The only difference is that story-wise, it's easier to work in the wild talent.

[Agent_137]

I think wild talents should be less related to established ingame skills and more  . . . wild.

[Avril]

I wouldn't like seeing wild psionic talents on everyone, but having a one in a thousand (or, for playability, one in a hundred) chance to receive that talent, and actually getting it only after you've been playing for 10 real-life days, would lead to some very interesting role-play that ordinary classes are deprived of right now. It would also provide a greater incentive for players to not kill off their characters, at least not until the ten-day mark, but by that time, they'll have grown quite attached to their characters.

One problem remains: staff members don't read the GDB, and even when they do it, they don't do it thoroughly enough to notice obvious solutions to the problems they bring up. Still...

getting upset that that other character's wild talent is so much cooler than their wild talent?

If we're talking psionic talents here, there's absolutely no threat, since by the time enough people figure out someone's got any kind of power, he'll either be gone from the city or dead. If we're talking crafting talents and things like that, I can't see anyone getting upset because some fellow got  a neat skill in addition to his subclass. So what if he can make both cups and jewels out of stone? So what if he has a knack for spotting tracks in the desert? Personally, I don't use skills that my character isn't supposed to have, even if they are on his list... If they turned out to be, and he was interested in knowing them, I'd practice/study them. Not otherwise. There wouldn't be so much of an OOC envy as IC feelings (of any kind) towards my multi-talented character.