Skills, Classes and Guilds

[Ammit]

So we'd have everyone eventually become Sorcerers.

I thought of that problem when reading the thread, but then realised sorcerery could still be restricted based on karma. So yes, while everyone with sorcerer karma could always become sorcerers, they're given the ability to play them because they're trusted not to abuse it.

I personally think classes inhibit roleplay and would love to see arm become classless. Unfortunately I think it would require such a big change and would be a lot of work that it's unfeasible.

[Anonymous]

I personally think classes inhibit roleplay and would love to see arm become classless.

Classless systems both solve and create a big problem.

In a classless system you no longer consciously or subconsciously can pick out someone's  guild.  Right now if you've played a few guilds you can pick out who would be a threat in a room alone and who wouldn't if you guess their guild.  Even if you don't intend to do this it's a challenge to remember that your PC doesn't know that Player X who is Guild A has no weapon skills.

The problem a classless system creates, though, is that unless certain skills are made incompatible you can end up with a Sneaking, Hiding, Scanning, Sword-swinging Fire Elementalist.

But if skills are made incompatible then you still end up knowing that that Fire Mage doesn't have a weapon skill.

[Twilight]

You could also change the way that subclasses are handled.  As it is, while there is a variety of subclasses, they might not necessarily be an exact fit for your background.

What you could do is take all the skills that subclasses get, and then assigned a certain number of points to each skill.  A character would get, say, 10 points to spend on skills, and three skill slots.  Listen might cost 5, guard 3 and a language 2, etc.  There would be standard caps on all of these skills, but choosing certain skill combinations (which ones unknown to players) would decrease max skill levels of certain skills (because I don't think the same skill in two different subclasses necessarily have the same max currently).  This would just add in some flexibility to the system.  On the other hand, people might choose the same ones over and over.  Or, and I am guessing this is the case, certain combinations could be considered just too powerful or easy to abuse, yes, even with subguild skills.

Not that I really like the above type of system.  It smacks of ROM.  I like the current system.  But, its an alternative.

[mansa]

I've seen a merchant have a weapons skill.  I've seen a sorcerer have a weapons skill.  I've seen a burglar turn -into- a sorcerer.  The game -is- flexible, if you work at it.  Now...when I say work at it... I mean...

These characters have been alive at least 9 months RL.  That's a major accomplishment in itself.  These people weren't killers or hiding in the 'rinth.  These characters had trainers, and were out in the real world, and some of them were -deep- into politics.  It is possible to do these things, but it takes a long ass time, and you better have a damn possible and well-thought-out reason for this.

I like the way the game works now.  And..  heck.  You could always special app some crazy character with five arms that receives a third attack each combat round.  Or one that turns into a tembo.

[X-D]

I like Twilight's idea for subclasses.

It may smack of ROM, but again, it is only subclass, the skill maxes I think would remain the same because it is a subclass skill and would not branch, I'd go for it myself. Hell, I'd trade armor repair for skinning on my armorcrafter right now.

Hell, I'd be happy to just be able to trade out a single subclass skill for another at chargen.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

In concept alone, I support this idea. However, I have always looked at it like this.

You should start with a class-list of skills.

During your life, you should be able to branch out into a new carreer if you like without Immmortal intervention. Thus, all skills need to be learnable, other than those which you have been born with, such as elementalism.

I do not support NPC teaching at all, but I do support PC teaching greatly.

There should be a cap of total skills points available to you. Maybe base it on your race, of perhaps on your intelligence, or maybe, just a broad, across the board cap.

You need to be capable of locking your skills where they are. In some games, this might become twinky, but in Armageddon, you cannot even see your skill levels, so it can't be twinky. This way, you can adjust your character's persona and there would be no two characters alike.

The point is that you cannot expect to know everything in the world, but there is no way you should have to be a warrior or a merchant for the rest of your life.

[wizturbo]

I've seen a merchant have a weapons skill.  I've seen a sorcerer have a weapons skill.  I've seen a burglar turn -into- a sorcerer.  The game -is- flexible, if you work at it.  Now...when I say work at it... I mean...

These characters have been alive at least 9 months RL.  That's a major accomplishment in itself.  These people weren't killers or hiding in the 'rinth.  These characters had trainers, and were out in the real world, and some of them were -deep- into politics.  It is possible to do these things, but it takes a long ass time, and you better have a damn possible and well-thought-out reason for this.

I like the way the game works now.  And..  heck.  You could always special app some crazy character with five arms that receives a third attack each combat round.  Or one that turns into a tembo.

Your completely right there Mansa.  Thats why I recommended the everyman skills, opposed to being able to 'learn' any skill.  Everyone should be minorly proficient in some things.  As for 'special' circumstances where characters gain skills outside of their guild to any level of real talent over the 'everyman' level, the immortals can always add that if its realistic.  But players shouldn't have to special request the ability to hide and scan at a minor level of proficiency, these are skills any 5 year old would have playing hide and go seek.  

As for all complicated or 'powerful' abilities, immortal assistance should be required.  Both for simplicity sake, and as a checks and measures to prevent abuse.

[jmordetsky]

I would abuse the system and become the uber mansa.

Me too.

[Miee]

I would abuse the system and become the uber mansa.

Me too.

I just special-apped an uber mansa.

[Armaddict]

I've played on muds, RPI ones, where players could select the skills they wanted, and I hated all of them.

[Anonymous]

I've played on muds, RPI ones, where players could select the skills they wanted, and I hated all of them.

There were planes that didn't fly the first time, you know.

[Ktavialt]

I've played on muds, RPI ones, where players could select the skills they wanted, and I hated all of them.

I've seen lots of those as well, and hated them also, but the reason I
hated them is that you could select as many skills as you wanted, but the
more skills you selected, the more experience you needed to gain levels.

Like CRW said regarding the planes, just because someone else does it
poorly, doesn't mean it can't be done well.

[wizturbo]

There were planes that didn't fly the first time, you know.

This is true, but if it fails the plane crashes, right?

What people are saying, is that other RPI muds that have tried this have failed.  I'd rather not risk the best mud in the world, just to see if the skill system change would make it the best mud in the world + +

:-)

[Anonymous]

What people are saying, is that other RPI muds that have tried this have failed. I'd rather not risk the best mud in the world, just to see if the skill system change would make it the best mud in the world + +

             Bet they said the same thing when they were adding in permadeath, or sub-guilds or crafting...for the game to be the best it has to continue to evolve, it is the only reason it has come this far.  I like 7DV idea...The amount of work this would involve is tough but i bet it was the same with coding sub-guilds and getting the crafting system going...if it turns out bad nothing will stop us from going back...on that note i would also like to see all stat indicators removed.

[jstorrie]

Since your character's class and subclass represent their training and learning up until the point the player begins playing them, I don't think there's any need to put in some sort of classless system.  If it took your warrior twenty years to learn how to do the basic warrior skills, and he has the lifespan in which to try study burglar skills for another twenty, I'm sure you could just send the log in and have the immortals give you some skills, you know?

It would take so incredibly long for any character to 'learn' a new class that the overwhelming majority would die before they did.  It's much less work to have the immortals tweak a few outstanding characters now and then than to completely rewrite the entire skill and learning system.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

So, incredibly long to learn a new class ...

No. That is not accurate.

I myself have learned maybe 3 or 4 RL classes in the space of 7 years. Fastfood employee, undisclosed occupation, stockroom worker, sculptor, painter, artist, basketball player .... maybe more than 3 or 4 classes, come to think of it.

If you put in the time, you should be able to do it, and you should be able to do it without Immortal assistance.

[Modest Mouth]

I myself have learned maybe 3 or 4 RL classes in the space of 7 years. Fastfood employee, undisclosed occupation, stockroom worker, sculptor, painter, artist, basketball player .... maybe more than 3 or 4 classes, come to think of it.

Not sure if this is on the same level as a class.

In Arm, I'm a warrior: I've been a caravan guard, a latrine janitor, a mercenary, a leatherworker, a raider, and an assassin in the past 7 years. Although each one might rely on different skills, the basics are still the same.

Something more comparable to RL might be: I'm a computer technician. In my spare time, I do cross-country running, break-dance, draw, play the saxophone and harmonica, work at bookstores and build architecural miracles with Legos. Now, if you asked me to be doctor, a nuclear physicist, or enlist in the military, I would tell you to sod off. Although I -do- many things, my "class" is still a computer technician. It is what I went to school for, it is what I trained for, and it is what I love. WHen I get hired, it won't be because of all my other activities, it will be because I have the skills necessary to be a comp tech.

My vote is still the same: Keep the system, if anything, give more flavor to sub-guilds and take some away from the generic classes.

[Anonymous]

This is true, but if it fails the plane crashes, right?

Right, but old Orville and Wilbur didn't just decide that because Leonardo couldn't make it work then it's impossible.

What people are saying, is that other RPI muds that have tried this have failed.

Other muds have tried to balance permadeath, roleplay and player-killing and failed as well.

I'd rather not risk the best mud in the world, just to see if the skill system change would make it the best mud in the world

Where's the risk?  I've toyed around with Diku muds enough to know that chargen changes don't mean you have to wipe out player characters.  If something didn't work it could be fixed or pulled off the game.

[Avril]

I voted "good idea", even though I don't agree with it at all, simply because the game needs a classless system... Not that things will ever change. In fact, I remember some staff member once said something to the extent of "magickers can't hide". It wouldn't surprise me to hear that most of the imms, who have become accustomed to the class system over the course of years, felt that way. Still, magickers live such dangerous lives that I'm surprised they don't get the hide skill straight off.

Skill-picking, with the use of a fixed ammount of skillpoints, might make a good extention to the already available class system. If properly integrated, the current guilds would become nothing more than specific combinations of skills. The whole whiran repertoire of spells could fit into a single "skill" chosen at character creation, charged so many skill points that, unless the player placed a major cap on it, it would be difficult to take on the major aspects of another class. Some skills might exclude each other - a nilazi psionic, for instance, ought to be impossible without a special app. Best of all, the addition of a "custom class" wouldn't need anything like a player wipe, as the original system would still be there.

As it is now, if you can carve both rocks and wood, you're definitely a merchant. If you try sneaking in the desert... Ranger. Disarming or subduing people in the sparring ring? That makes you a warrior. It's extremely easy to tell what someone can do, and how well he can do it, by knowing what just one of his skills is.

A stonecarver who forages his own rocks, using a combination of alertness and stealth, would not realistically have the ranger/stonecrafter combo. Why don't stonecrafters, who spend most of their life working stone, ever get better at it than at sneaking around the desert? Because they haven't picked the merchant class? Well, that doesn't really make sense... At the moment, quite a few character concepts fail to get off the ground, or indeed, fail to be envisioned simply because no class/subclass combination exists to satisfy them. By allowing the players to decide the extent of their expertise in whatever preset skills they've chosen, even though they can't develop new skills without massive effort and immortal intervention, the game would suddenly offer a whole lot of customizability, and thus, a whole lot more variety than it has now. Not only would it ensure that merchants and magickers won't be treated like wimps, it would also allow a whole variety of character concepts to prosper.

Some overpowered skills and abilities might cause a few problems with this setup, though, and some hidden skills (like offense and defense) might have to come out in the open. There's also that set of abilities, like ranger quitting and desert sneak/hide, that would prove cumbersome to recode and reintergrate. When balanced properly, however, this system would outclass and practically contain the one that exists now.

[Miee]

I was under the impression that the hidden offense and defense skills were like contact and barrier.  Everyone gets them automatically.

Of course, I could be wrong.

[Akaramu]

I'm all for more custom subguilds, while leaving the main ones untouched. For obvious reasons there would be nore magickal, mindbender or sorcerer abilities available in any subguild, but the common ones... hide, archery, etc... could be available to anyone based on some limited choice system at start, if backed up properly via background. I also think it should be possible for anyone to learn a subguild skill at a low cap later in their career without a chance of ever getting good at it. *shrug*

[Kalden]

People are far too predictable right now. I can walk around and guess classes, and half the time I will be right. It's annoying and restrictive, and it's the reason that I don't play Armageddon anymore. The biggest intrigue killer comes with the elementalists/sorcerors and thieves. A stronger combat subclass could help, but it would be heavily abused.

Skills should not be all or nothing.

[jhunter]

People are far too predictable right now. I can walk around and guess classes, and half the time I will be right. It's annoying and restrictive, and it's the reason that I don't play Armageddon anymore. The biggest intrigue killer comes with the elementalists/sorcerors and thieves. A stronger combat subclass could help, but it would be heavily abused.

If it's merely because you can guess what guild someone is maybe your focusing too much on the OOC aspect of things.

*shrug*

Also, as you said your only right 50% of the time so it can't be that bad.

[Bogre]

People are far too predictable right now. I can walk around and guess classes, and half the time I will be right. It's annoying and restrictive, and it's the reason that I don't play Armageddon anymore. The biggest intrigue killer comes with the elementalists/sorcerors and thieves. A stronger combat subclass could help, but it would be heavily abused.

Skills should not be all or nothing.

They aren't all or nothing, really. And sometimes people can be predictable, but you've gotta ignore that part of it.

[Modest Mouth]

People are far too predictable right now. I can walk around and guess classes, and half the time I will be right.

And what's wrong with that?

If I'm a hired sword, then I want people to be able to look at me and think that I'm the best sellsword in all of Zalanthas, which is why I charge crazy high prices.

If I'm a desert guide, I want to look like I'm ready for a sandstorm to drop at any second so that people will feel safe if I'm in their group.

If I'm a merchant, then I want to look like I'm makin' sid so that my competition knows that they are outclassed.

The point is, more than 50% of the people who populate the world would want you to guess their class, because it is a necessary part of their profession.

The other 50% are all theives and should be shouted at the moment they enter the tavern.