Skills, Classes and Guilds

[Anonymous]

People are far too predictable right now. I can walk around and guess classes, and half the time I will be right.

And what's wrong with that?

Plenty.

I'm a warrior, you're a thief.  If I can guess that, then I can assume I'll have a decent shot at killing you.  If you subconsciously or consciously guess the guild and have played here for a while, then you have to work to not let that have an effect on your roleplay.  You have to make yourself roleplay out that you just aren't sure how dangerous someone is instead of just 'knowing' that if you get them in a locked room you will win.

Obviously only staff can truly know what's up, but it's still not a good situation.

I'd rather people go by how you roleplay, not what identifying skills you've displayed, and doing away with guilds is the best way to reinforce that.

[Modest Mouth]

Again, I don't see that as being a problem. Let's plot out this scenario:

Bob is a trained fighter. He has been a mercenary most of his life and he has seen the hairer side of battle. He has killed men, and he is still alive, which should say enough about his combat prowess. He is dressed in chitin-armor bearing the scars of those fights.

Joe is a thief. He has cutpurses since he was old enough to skin from the law. He has stolen, and he still has both of his hands, which should say enough about his thieving prowess. He is wearing the garb of the city life, so he can move from mark to mark easier.

Now, if Bob meets Joe in a tavern, is it unreasonable and OOC for Bob to believe that he could take Joe in a fight?

No. In fact, it is perfectly in character for Bob. Have you ever been to a bar with a bunch of Marines? Same thing. They start eyeing ever male up and down looking for a reason to get in a fight, cause they know they can take just about anyone in there.

Alright, so Bob comes to the conclusion that he can take Joe in a fight. Hell, in his mind, he can take just about anyone in a fight. So, Bob's player starts guessing at Joe's guild. Very OOC and twinkish, but let's roll wit it. So Bob's player guesses thief. Congrats, Bob's player guessed that he is a thief, so Bob starts span scanning. Well, know everyone knows OOC that Bob's player is a damned fool. If Bob's player had kept his OOC knowledge from affecting the game, then everyone would be a lot happier.

The weakness you describe is not about the game, it's about the players.

[Anonymous]

Again, I don't see that as being a problem. Let's plot out this scenario:

Bob is a trained fighter. He has been a mercenary most of his life and he has seen the hairer side of battle. He has killed men, and he is still alive, which should say enough about his combat prowess. He is dressed in chitin-armor bearing the scars of those fights.

Joe is a thief. He has cutpurses since he was old enough to skin from the law. He has stolen, and he still has both of his hands, which should say enough about his thieving prowess. He is wearing the garb of the city life, so he can move from mark to mark easier.

Because as soon as Joe does something that identifies him as thief guild there is no question who will win in a straight up fight.

If there were no guilds, then Bob might think he could take Joe, but in the back of his mind he has to be wondering if Joe dresses that way but is actually a well-trained fighter.

[jhunter]

If there were no guilds, then Bob might think he could take Joe, but in the back of his mind he has to be wondering if Joe dresses that way but is actually a well-trained fighter.

Even with the guilds you can still do this...it's not really that hard to do.

[Anonymous]

Even with the guilds you can still do this...it's not really that hard to do.

Yes, but I think it's not a far leap to imagine that people take advantage of guild guessing, even subconsciously.

Bob the 2-day warrior is talking to a gruff looking dwarf.  The dwarf talks about riding south to a village.  In the process the dwarf does something that pegs him as most-likely having a non-combative subguild that Bob picks up on, so, despite the dwarf's gear, Bob now has it in the back of his head that he can take that dwarf out, knock him off his kank and kill him for sid.

What if Bob is the sort of player to take advantage of that?  Even if he doesn't mean to be the sort who takes advantage of it, knowing subconsciously they you have the edge over someone in a fight can't help but to alter your actions as a player.  Either you take advantage of it or you overcompensate.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The other 50% are all theives and should be shouted at the moment they enter the tavern.

That isn't funny, especially since your post seems to support this kind of behavior.

[jhunter]

jhunter wrote:
Even with the guilds you can still do this...it's not really that hard to do.


Yes, but I think it's not a far leap to imagine that people take advantage of guild guessing, even subconsciously.

Bob the 2-day warrior is talking to a gruff looking dwarf. The dwarf talks about riding south to a village. In the process the dwarf does something that pegs him as most-likely having a non-combative subguild that Bob picks up on, so, despite the dwarf's gear, Bob now has it in the back of his head that he can take that dwarf out, knock him off his kank and kill him for sid.

What if Bob is the sort of player to take advantage of that? Even if he doesn't mean to be the sort who takes advantage of it, knowing subconsciously they you have the edge over someone in a fight can't help but to alter your actions as a player. Either you take advantage of it or you overcompensate.

I agree, but it also does prove the point that it's not a problem with the game but with some of the players.

If you are thinking realistically and roleplaying that way, the ooc knowledge of what guild someone is shouldn't come into play. I haven't had a problem personally separating the two. I alway bring it down to this one simple question:

What, would my -pc- do in this situation having the knowledge he/she does?

*shrug*

[Modest Mouth]

Modest Mouth wrote:
The other 50% are all theives and should be shouted at the moment they enter the tavern.


That isn't funny, especially since your post seems to support this kind of behavior.

Nah, I was trying to take the exact opposite position. My point was that it is okay if your character can draw his own conclusions from what he witnesses in the game, that that is totally fine IC. What is not okay is when you draw conclusions OOC and let those affect the way you play, such as shouting at thieves in a tavern because they wear footpads and spam scanning.
Eaxmple:

I can beat up that guy because I am the hardest warrior in the world. I've merced with the Byn, saw my share in fighting with the north, and did a stint in the Arena as the only undefeated gladiator in Allanak. I've seen the sharp edge of the blade and I've laughed it off. = cool line of thought

I can beat up that guy because, despite the armor he is wearing, he knows how to hide which means he can't have very good combat skills so I could probably take him because I choose warrior and my skills should be higher. Plus, I think it was that guy who stole from my last character, so now I'm gonna tell everybody my excuse for killing him was because he was so thiefy...ectect.= wack-ass line of thought

Modest Mouth's point:

Abolishing classes/subguilds because it can be abused by bad players is -NOT- a good enough reason to get rid of it.

[Dresan]

The way guilds currently are you would have to be real dense or a complete newbie not to figure out what someone was after spending time with them.  You don't have to be looking for it or anything but if a person climbs on a mount and wields two weapons then they are a ranger, it takes a split second for the human mind to put one and one together.  Now that doesn't mean someone will abuse this knowledge but it's the same as someone telling you a plot line it sorta ruins the genuine suprise and take away from some of the mystery of the other character.

[X-D]

Though, its not that hard to hide your guild either,  or at least make people come to the wrong conclusion, specialy with a good subguild choice or even using skills you do not really have.

Just a comment.

[jhunter]

Something else too, I think some cross-blending of some crafting skills would help alleviate this a bit. Like:

How come a stone crafter who knows stoneworking very well cannot craft simple weapons of stone?


Same with those that can work wood?

Still leave the more advanced sort of weapons to the weaponscrafters and merchants (the ones that use more than one material).

There are other examples I can't think of right now.

[Delirium]

How come a stone crafter who knows stoneworking very well cannot craft simple weapons of stone?

Simply limitation in the way the crafting code works, I think.

[Sir Diealot]

Shouldn't be too hard to fix..add the simple-craft weapons to the skillset..va-boom..it's done.